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  #21  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2016, 8:40 PM
mhays mhays is online now
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There's lots of infill but it's mostly the type you'd see in a densifying but car-oriented suburb. And nowhere near what's happening in some suburbs.
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  #22  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2016, 8:41 PM
ThePhun1 ThePhun1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I don't get it either. PPP makes sense across currencies, not within currencies.

If Houston is "cheaper" than SF it just means it has lower per square foot housing costs (and lower home price appreciation). It isn't like pizza, childcare and airline tickets are appreciably different.
There's no right or wrong answer. There's certain amenities you get with living in a place like San Francisco, where you pay more for housing but in return get certain things (walkability, transit, etc...) as opposed to a place like Houston or DFW, where you have only small pockets of walkability but in turn get a mighty bang for your buck for housing.
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  #23  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2016, 8:48 PM
ThePhun1 ThePhun1 is offline
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
There's lots of infill but it's mostly the type you'd see in a densifying but car-oriented suburb. And nowhere near what's happening in some suburbs.
Yes and no. There are certainly some areas where traditional urban living is growing as an option (along some rail lines for example). Whereas it was considered unrealistic to think of living in the heart of Houston 15 years ago, it is very possible now to live in or in shouting distance of Downtown Houston. But there's also lots of suburban style development in the core as well.
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  #24  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2016, 8:57 PM
mhays mhays is online now
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I've never seen a hardcore urban project on the Houston projects thread. Everything seems to use twice as much land as it needs, due to parking especially.
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  #25  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2016, 10:00 PM
ThePhun1 ThePhun1 is offline
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
I've never seen a hardcore urban project on the Houston projects thread. Everything seems to use twice as much land as it needs, due to parking especially.
The area by Herman Park has a rail line and is very walkable by Houston standards. I was interested in an apartment there that had a spectacular view of Downtown Houston from the Southwest.

So traditional urban living is both realistic and possible, even in Houston.

Last edited by ThePhun1; Jan 2, 2017 at 1:22 AM.
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  #26  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2017, 7:43 PM
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Even Portland, with its carefully cultivated international reputation for high density
Wait what? Portland does not have an international reputation for anything, and doesn't have a reputation for high density even within the United States. What in the world is he talking about?
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  #27  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2017, 7:46 PM
ChargerCarl ChargerCarl is offline
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Wait what? Portland does not have an international reputation for anything, and doesn't have a reputation for high density even within the United States. What in the world is he talking about?
Actually Portland's aesthetic is very popular in Japan:

http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles...e-big-in-japan
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  #28  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2017, 9:29 PM
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  #29  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2017, 1:22 AM
mhays mhays is online now
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Portland has some well-deserved notoriety from the TV show as well as reality. But just about every major city gets hugely praised in stories like these.
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  #30  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2017, 11:23 AM
Samwill89 Samwill89 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhays View Post
There's lots of infill but it's mostly the type you'd see in a densifying but car-oriented suburb. And nowhere near what's happening in some suburbs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhays View Post
I've never seen a hardcore urban project on the Houston projects thread. Everything seems to use twice as much land as it needs, due to parking especially.
I suppose you aren't completely incorrect. I view Houston's urban transformation as indicative of an emerging urban paradigm in the states. Much to the chagrin of hardcore urbanist, Houston is attempting to weave a balance between the desires to create an urban, walkable built-form with the realities & conveniences of car-ownership. It may be a suboptimal recipe, but it is contributing to an urban character which can only be found in Houston; and is setting the stage for the next phase of its urban revolution.

Additionally, I'd say the the vast quantity of land in the city making the shift toward the more urban-lite are the site of town & rowhomes. This is rather than the Texas-donut megablock infill many seem to associate with Houston's brand of urbanism (those are more Dallas and Austin types of infill).

On this front, I am beginning to see aesthetic parallels to a few neighborhoods in San Francisco, LA, New Orleans and Chicago. Neighborhoods like Rice Military, the Museum District, Heights, Montrose, etc. are turning into Houston-aesthetic versions of SF's Sunset or Castro neighborhoods, for example.

San Francisco's Sunset Neighborhood:



Houston's Rice Military Neighborhood:




Houston's Second Ward


Potential of same block if merged with typical Houston's retail storefronts.


Source

Last edited by Samwill89; Jan 2, 2017 at 12:39 PM.
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  #31  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2017, 5:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Samwill89 View Post
I suppose you aren't completely incorrect. I view Houston's urban transformation as indicative of an emerging urban paradigm in the states. Much to the chagrin of hardcore urbanist, Houston is attempting to weave a balance between the desires to create an urban, walkable built-form with the realities & conveniences of car-ownership.
You're making a false dichotomy. You cannot have good urbanism while accomodating the car for everything. It has nothing to do with being a "hardcore urbanist", but complete subjugation to the automobile will never give you a traditional urban framework.

Then you're finding the best streetviews you can find of Houston, comparing them to the worst streetviews you can find in other cities, and then hoping this "proves" something. These views are all pretty awful and anti-urban, and I can find a streetview in suburban Detroit that looks as good or better as something in central Tokyo; doesn't mean they're fundamentally similar in urban form.
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  #32  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2017, 6:38 PM
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I took a Muni bus and walked around SF's Outer Sunset on a cold, rainy day after Thanksgiving. I didn't spend much time before jumping onto a Muni train that was sitting in the middle of the street. But it wasn't impressive. Dense but not attractive.

On the flip side it has one-car garages, while Houston seems to have two everywhere. There's a huge difference for the streetscape. One is virtually nothing but garages and driveways, while the other allows a little patio or patch of lawn or something, though many don't do that in the Sunset.

Those townhouses on Capitol Street are an easy walk to the Downtown core, so it's especially unfortunate that they have two car garages also. But they look better than most including their neighbors.
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  #33  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2017, 8:16 PM
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Houston shows just how difficult it is to transition from suburbanism to urbanism in the USA today. Houston has a high wage economy, growing population, doesn't have nearly as many of the regulatory roadblocks to building that you find in California, NYC etc. And it's part of the same American culture that's shifted aspirations increasingly to urban lifestyles...

But it's a very hard transition to make, even under the most favorable regulatory environment in the USA. How do you shift away from effectively 100% car orientation? Urbanism requires passable public transportation. Passable public transportation is hugely expensive, and it's essentially impossible to politically justify that cost when almost no one but the very poor uses public transport.
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  #34  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2017, 9:00 PM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
The fact that a UK newspaper wrote a couple of articles on Portland does not mean it's popular or well-known there.
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  #35  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2017, 10:53 PM
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Also, I don't know Houston well at all, but I get the impression that they're just building another Los Angeles there. I mean car-oriented density. Is that basically correct?

Los Angeles was also a promised land of good jobs, warm weather, and low housing costs for a long time, until traffic and the at least partially resultant NIMBYism put a limit to further growth.
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  #36  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2017, 11:41 PM
Samwill89 Samwill89 is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
You're making a false dichotomy. You cannot have good urbanism while accomodating the car for everything. It has nothing to do with being a "hardcore urbanist", but complete subjugation to the automobile will never give you a traditional urban framework.

Then you're finding the best streetviews you can find of Houston, comparing them to the worst streetviews you can find in other cities, and then hoping this "proves" something. These views are all pretty awful and anti-urban, and I can find a streetview in suburban Detroit that looks as good or better as something in central Tokyo; doesn't mean they're fundamentally similar in urban form.
Those are far from the best or worst of either city and it is certainly not the angle I'm pushing if you were to actually read my post.

The subject at hand is Houston's "evolving urban form". Those town & row homes are becoming the predominant building typology throughout 75-100 square miles of Houston. The more familiar, Texas Donut style developments are numerous, but not as predominant as they are in other Sunbelt cities.

Of course this isn't a "traditional urban framework"; Houston appears to be creating it's own version of urbanity, which may not appeal to many here. But it seems to be among the more successful attempts at creating "missing middle" housing. It is very unlikely for "traditional" urban forms to emerge where they didn't exist previously due to the changes in land use regulations, consumer preferences & new technologies. Houston seems to be dealing with this reality in ways it can.

I have a feeling that the "anti-urban" developments being created there are a transitory, awkward teenage, phase in the development of that city as it moves from completely suburban, into something more mature. We're witnessing this latter phase in cities like LA & Denver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhays View Post
On the flip side it has one-car garages, while Houston seems to have two everywhere. There's a huge difference for the streetscape. One is virtually nothing but garages and driveways, while the other allows a little patio or patch of lawn or something, though many don't do that in the Sunset.
Agreed. I imagine as owners/tenants of the properties modify the dwellings away from the developer's default over the next 20 years, human-scale variances in the streetscape may emerge. Or if some of the garages are converted into flats. The crude artist depiction I added to my previous post alludes to some of the potential of the newer building stock over time.

I am also a bit more optimistic on the driverless car effectively making residential garages obsolete in the coming decades.


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Originally Posted by barney82 View Post
Houston shows just how difficult it is to transition from suburbanism to urbanism in the USA today. Houston has a high wage economy, growing population, doesn't have nearly as many of the regulatory roadblocks to building that you find in California, NYC etc. And it's part of the same American culture that's shifted aspirations increasingly to urban lifestyles...

But it's a very hard transition to make, even under the most favorable regulatory environment in the USA. How do you shift away from effectively 100% car orientation? Urbanism requires passable public transportation. Passable public transportation is hugely expensive, and it's essentially impossible to politically justify that cost when almost no one but the very poor uses public transport.
I'd say that Seattle seems to be the place to look to for making this transition successfully. Houston's lax regulatory environment has led to an interesting & unique character to the city. But a cohesive urban environment does not appear to be the result of such of an arrangement. Maybe in 20 years, we can see if a new wave of development makes moves in that direction.

Last edited by Samwill89; Jan 3, 2017 at 12:15 AM.
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  #37  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2017, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barney82 View Post
Houston shows just how difficult it is to transition from suburbanism to urbanism in the USA today. Houston has a high wage economy, growing population, doesn't have nearly as many of the regulatory roadblocks to building that you find in California, NYC etc. And it's part of the same American culture that's shifted aspirations increasingly to urban lifestyles...

But it's a very hard transition to make, even under the most favorable regulatory environment in the USA. How do you shift away from effectively 100% car orientation? Urbanism requires passable public transportation. Passable public transportation is hugely expensive, and it's essentially impossible to politically justify that cost when almost no one but the very poor uses public transport.
I would add to that the unacceptable lead times required for new public transportation networks to be built. If you are a consumer, you would never forego the two car garage now for the transit network that will open in 10-20 years, assuming it can complete the permitting and entitlement process.
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  #38  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2017, 12:35 AM
ChargerCarl ChargerCarl is offline
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Originally Posted by barney82 View Post
Houston shows just how difficult it is to transition from suburbanism to urbanism in the USA today. Houston has a high wage economy, growing population, doesn't have nearly as many of the regulatory roadblocks to building that you find in California, NYC etc. And it's part of the same American culture that's shifted aspirations increasingly to urban lifestyles...

But it's a very hard transition to make, even under the most favorable regulatory environment in the USA. How do you shift away from effectively 100% car orientation? Urbanism requires passable public transportation. Passable public transportation is hugely expensive, and it's essentially impossible to politically justify that cost when almost no one but the very poor uses public transport.
Maybe, but I'm not sure. It's not like Houston has the same regulatory environment that pre-war cities existed in, it's building code still heavily promotes suburban sprawl.

I would say it's hard to change zoning and building codes from suburban to urban.
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  #39  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2017, 12:41 AM
ThePhun1 ThePhun1 is offline
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I knew it wouldn't be long before the hammer came down against Houston in this thread.
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  #40  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2017, 4:22 AM
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The ZIP codes of central Houston (an area I defined with about 1 million people) grew by about 46,500 people between 2011 and 2015 based on the ACS.
http://www.socialexplorer.com/e2684351f9/view

There are other cities that can match that, but it's still solid growth.
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