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  #221  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2019, 10:26 PM
craigs craigs is offline
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Originally Posted by MplsTodd View Post
As someone who worked in downtown Minneapolis for 20 years, I generally had a love-hate relationship with the skyways. They definitely detract from streetlife. Nicollet Mall has decent pedestrian traffic, but other streets in the core lack activity. But in winter months, you really appreciate the skyway and the volume of usage is amazing. No matter what the weather is like outside, huge crowds of people circulate throughout the downtown core via skyway, patronizing local businesses and restaurants.
In the past ten years, substantial development has occurred around the edges of the downtown core, greatly enlarging the active areas of downtown (North Loop, Mills District, Downtown East, etc...). What had been parking lots and non-descript commercial buildings has densified and been developed with lots of housing, decent amount of office, hotels, restaurants and even retail, especially in the North Loop.
The skyway system's downside (taking people off the streets) is definitely outweighed by the upside: with climate control and security, there is a sufficiently large customer base to reliably support a whole slew of downtown businesses.

People in the Twin Cities are not weather wimps, as their four-season bike culture shows, but people--everywhere--tend to avoid going outside in inclement weather when they feel they have a viable alternative. In the case of shops and restaurants, that usually means suburban malls, and M-SP has those, just like everywhere else.

I suspect there would be fewer reliable customers (and thus fewer establishments) downtown without the skyways. Indeed, it's even possible much of what downtown Minneapolis has to offer, from shops and restaurants to office buildings and hotels, might well have been located outside downtown if not for the perks engendered in the skyway system. Being downtown has only been widely appreciated among the general public for the last 10 or 15 years or so. Before then, a lot more people and businesses wanted to be in the suburbs, and it didn't take much convincing. They skyway system offered them a downtown alternative, and still does, which is a big part of why I think it wins the thread.
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  #222  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2019, 10:43 PM
MPLS_Const_Watch MPLS_Const_Watch is offline
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
those numbers are by MSA, so st. paul's total was included in minneapolis' figure.

here's how it breaks down for the twin cities:

183,441 total in the MSA

141,639 in Minneapolis

37,304 in St. Paul

4,498 in Brooklyn Park
Ahh, this makes sense. Thanks for the info.

Excited to see where these numbers are after 2020.
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  #223  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 6:49 PM
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Originally Posted by MPLS_Const_Watch View Post

Excited to see where these numbers are after 2020.
yeah, we're now 9 years removed from those numbers, and with minneapolis' continued urban development, i won't be shocked if more of its census tracts have crossed the 10,000 ppsm threshold by the time the 2020 census is done next year.

it would almost be impossible for that 2010 figure to not have increased, perhaps significantly.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Sep 17, 2019 at 7:00 PM.
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  #224  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2019, 4:23 PM
mrnyc mrnyc is offline
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Originally Posted by MPLS_Const_Watch View Post
Interesting list. I'm curious about St. Paul's numbers and the combined Minneapolis-St. Paul total.



This is not correct. The skyway system is owned and managed by the individual property owners. The Downtown Improvement District (a nonprofit) works to coordinate hours and wayfinding, etc. but the skyways are all under direct control of the properties they run through. In St. Paul, I'm not sure exactly how they do it legally, whether its part of conditions attached to encroachment permits or easements or what, but the city retains control over hours and certain skyway rules. That's why you'll find later and more uniform hours in the St. Paul skyway.

A lot of people hate on the skyway system here pretty hard. I'm neutral to lukewarmly supportive of it. It is a tremendous boon to the city in the winter, but obviously has a negative impact on street life. It's hard to say for sure, but I would guess that the skyway has probably had a big impact on retaining downtown jobs. It's definitely a significant amenity for office workers.
interesting. i wondered about that. and i wondered what locals thought of the skyways. as a casual visitor i am 100% all for it. i see the streetlife as plenty busy -- where it should be -- and the skyway as an awesome compliment for msp. and that includes visits in the dead of winter and height of summer. i am glad what there was of it was torn out in cincinnati, it didnt work there, but it works very well up north with you guys. and its a unique signature for the city, just like underground montreal is for them.
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  #225  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2019, 6:29 PM
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right on time -- if you want to see more examples of typical cleveland apartments of the past century's boomtown years as they are today, that is to say barely hanging on, there is an excellent thread of the east side hough neighborhood up on uo -- check it out

https://forum.urbanohio.com/topic/16...d-of-extremes/
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  #226  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2019, 6:37 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Probably Cleveland, Some really historic parts of most Midwestern cities they are just going to be small and surrounded by non-urban neighborhoods.

Detroit before it collapsed.
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  #227  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2019, 5:00 AM
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Chicago, it's the most urban place in the country outside NY.
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  #228  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2019, 1:14 PM
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I really need to visit Detroit and Minneapolis
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  #229  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2019, 7:16 PM
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Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
Chicago, it's the most urban place in the country outside NY.
The thread title said ( except Chicago)
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  #230  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2019, 7:52 PM
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I remember walking around Minneapolis thinking I was in Somalia.

What quintessential Midwest experience are we referring to?
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  #231  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2019, 6:03 PM
mrnyc mrnyc is offline
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Originally Posted by edale View Post
Oh yeah, Cincinnati is definitely a Midwestern city with some cultural influences from the South, and some architectural influences from the Northeast. I've always gotten purely Midwestern vibes from Cleveland, and I'm not really sure what about it makes it feel Eastern. If it's just the cultural influences from the immigrants they've received over the years, then I guess Detroit and Chicago are also not Midwestern. From the architecture to the accent to the layout of the city...it's Great Lakes Midwest through and through.

Of course, Clevelanders are quick to point out that they were 'part of Connecticut' hundreds of years ago when the population of NE Ohio was a few dozen people. They'll say that the 'Connecticut influence' is still there because there are 3 buildings from the Connecticut Reserve that are still standing and look vaguely similar to buildings you might find in a small town in CT. But I have always thought this is just something they say to make themselves feel more...prestigious? As if Cleveland is somehow Greenwich on Lake Erie. I've always found this preposterous.
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
lol, yes, it is preposterous. By that measure, Detroit was part of Massachusetts. Or better yet, France, since that city was originally settled and plotted out by the French.

except nope. this a completely incorrect reading. a few scattered historic buildings is not why clevelanders and northeast ohioans refer to the connecticut western reserve history. its to do with outcomes of the original western reserve planning. mostly as seen today in the connecticut-like suburb, village and town rotaries in the region.


https://www.google.com/maps/@41.2372...!3m1!1e3?hl=en

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Oh...1!4d-82.907123

https://case.edu/ech/articles/w/western-reserve


What is the Western Reserve?

Northeastern Ohio’s cultural roots begin with the native American populations who first inhabited the area some 10,000 years ago. In 1662 the area became part of the colony of Connecticut whose royal charter granted it a swath of land extending across the continent to the Pacific Ocean. After the formation of the United States, Connecticut ceded most of its western lands to the national government but exempted approximately 3,400,000 acres lying north of latitude 41 degrees and extending 120 miles westward from the Pennsylvania border. This became its Western Reserve. In 1795 it sold most of this land to a group of investors who had formed the Connecticut Land Company and in the following year the company began the survey of the land to prepare it for sale. The survey party was led by Moses Cleaveland, the namesake of Cleveland, Ohio.

^ so its not a structural history, its a survey and planning history. you urban geeks should like that kind of thing!
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  #232  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2019, 6:20 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by mrnyc View Post
except nope. this a completely incorrect reading. a few scattered historic buildings is not why clevelanders and northeast ohioans refer to the connecticut western reserve history. its to do with outcomes of the original western reserve planning. mostly as seen today in the connecticut-like suburb, village and town rotaries in the region.


https://www.google.com/maps/@41.2372...!3m1!1e3?hl=en

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Oh...1!4d-82.907123

https://case.edu/ech/articles/w/western-reserve


What is the Western Reserve?

Northeastern Ohio’s cultural roots begin with the native American populations who first inhabited the area some 10,000 years ago. In 1662 the area became part of the colony of Connecticut whose royal charter granted it a swath of land extending across the continent to the Pacific Ocean. After the formation of the United States, Connecticut ceded most of its western lands to the national government but exempted approximately 3,400,000 acres lying north of latitude 41 degrees and extending 120 miles westward from the Pennsylvania border. This became its Western Reserve. In 1795 it sold most of this land to a group of investors who had formed the Connecticut Land Company and in the following year the company began the survey of the land to prepare it for sale. The survey party was led by Moses Cleaveland, the namesake of Cleveland, Ohio.

^ so its not a structural history, its a survey and planning history. you urban geeks should like that kind of thing!
Detroit was settled by France, and controlled by France for 60 years. The core areas of the city were planned by French planners. The names of many major roads and avenues retain the name of early French settlers. A very famous General Motors car brand is named after the French founder of Detroit. If Cleveland is Connecticut, Detroit is France.
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  #233  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2019, 6:23 PM
mrnyc mrnyc is offline
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Detroit was settled by France, and controlled by France for 60 years. The core areas of the city were planned by French planners. The names of many major roads and avenues retain the name of early French settlers. A very famous General Motors car brand is named after the French founder of Detroit. If Cleveland is Connecticut, Detroit is France.
if it was also planned out by the french like dc and there are a few legacy structures, then yes. if the roads are in name only than no. seems to be a bit of both of that in detroit and i'm not as sure of their history, but you hear that and all in all i would say yes.
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  #234  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2019, 6:26 PM
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Originally Posted by mrnyc View Post
except nope. this a completely incorrect reading. a few scattered historic buildings is not why clevelanders and northeast ohioans refer to the connecticut western reserve history. its to do with outcomes of the original western reserve planning. mostly as seen today in the connecticut-like suburb, village and town rotaries in the region.


https://www.google.com/maps/@41.2372...!3m1!1e3?hl=en

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Oh...1!4d-82.907123

https://case.edu/ech/articles/w/western-reserve


What is the Western Reserve?

Northeastern Ohio’s cultural roots begin with the native American populations who first inhabited the area some 10,000 years ago. In 1662 the area became part of the colony of Connecticut whose royal charter granted it a swath of land extending across the continent to the Pacific Ocean. After the formation of the United States, Connecticut ceded most of its western lands to the national government but exempted approximately 3,400,000 acres lying north of latitude 41 degrees and extending 120 miles westward from the Pennsylvania border. This became its Western Reserve. In 1795 it sold most of this land to a group of investors who had formed the Connecticut Land Company and in the following year the company began the survey of the land to prepare it for sale. The survey party was led by Moses Cleaveland, the namesake of Cleveland, Ohio.

^ so its not a structural history, its a survey and planning history. you urban geeks should like that kind of thing!
Oh please. So a roundabout in the center of town, or a central green is the proud legacy of Connecticut? Fact is, NE Ohio was BARELY developed by the time the land was sold in 1795. There are town squares and public greens in many places in the state that weren't included in the Western Reserve.

Is Cincinnati's Hyde Park Square evidence of Connecticut Reserve influence that crept south?
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1396...7i16384!8i8192
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  #235  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2019, 6:34 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by mrnyc View Post
if it was also planned out by the french like dc and there are a few legacy structures, then yes. if the roads are in name only than no. seems to be a bit of both of that in detroit, but i'm not sure of their history.
D.C. wasn't planned out by the French. It was planned by a person who happened to be French. Detroit was actually part of France, just like New Orleans, hence why the city's name is French, and to this day the city's flag ties to it's French heritage by incorporating the French royal standard. The early grid of the city was planned by the French. Most of downtown Detroit, and areas of the city near the waterfront still mostly adheres to the French layout of the city.

I'm not arguing that Detroit is French, btw. I just think the claim that Cleveland is Connecticut is ridiculous.
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  #236  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2019, 6:36 PM
mrnyc mrnyc is offline
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Originally Posted by edale View Post
Oh please. So a roundabout in the center of town, or a central green is the proud legacy of Connecticut? Fact is, NE Ohio was BARELY developed by the time the land was sold in 1795. There are town squares and public greens in many places in the state that weren't included in the Western Reserve.

Is Cincinnati's Hyde Park Square evidence of Connecticut Reserve influence that crept south?
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1396...7i16384!8i8192

huh? nothing hangs on a date. who do you think the settlers of those small villages at that time were? so yes the roundabouts, for example, which you purposefully neglected to mention, are unique to ne ohio as familiar in ct.
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  #237  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2019, 6:39 PM
mrnyc mrnyc is offline
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
D.C. wasn't planned out by the French. It was planned by a person who happened to be French. Detroit was actually part of France, just like New Orleans, hence why the city's name is French, and to this day the city's flag ties to it's French heritage by incorporating the French royal standard. The early grid of the city was planned by the French. Most of downtown Detroit, and areas of the city near the waterfront still mostly adheres to the French layout of the city.

I'm not arguing that Detroit is French, btw. I just think the claim that Cleveland is Connecticut is ridiculous.
except yes dc was also laid out in a very french style by a frenchman.

and what is ridiculous is there is no claim cleveland is connecticut, except by you right there.
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  #238  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2019, 6:42 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by mrnyc View Post
except yes dc was also laid out in a very french style by a frenchman.
He was being paid to design the United States capital city. By the United States government.

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Originally Posted by mrnyc View Post
and what is ridiculous is there is no claim cleveland is connecticut, except by you right there.
That is literally the claim to which you were responding.
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  #239  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2019, 6:48 PM
mrnyc mrnyc is offline
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
He was being paid to design the American capital city. By the United States government.

yes he was, so what? there was nothing much there prior. even casuals talk about about the dc french planning legacy and detroit french legacy all the time, much less urban geekazoids. cleveland western reserve planning legacy much less so outside of the region as it isnt so known or obvious.


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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post


That is literally the claim to which you were responding.

well if it wasn't just you than yes of course it is.
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  #240  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2019, 7:03 PM
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