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  #61  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2019, 4:20 AM
Obadno Obadno is online now
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Originally Posted by muppet View Post
Guangzhou-Shenzhen is one single contiguous urban area now (42 million in 2010) not a metro count (60+million). They are a physically conjoined city, where one can walk on paved streets surrounded by buildings from one end to the other. No countryside, no jumps.



The 2015 World Bank Report is here which announced it had become the world's most populous urban area.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/...-biggest-city/
I havent been there since 2007 but it was an overwhelming place then Im sure its worse now.

Cant you basically go from Macao up to Guangzhou and back down to Hong Kong in one continuous urban hive city?



Cool to visit but I dont think id want to live in it.
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  #62  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2019, 9:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muppet View Post
Guangzhou-Shenzhen is one single contiguous urban area now (42 million in 2010) not a metro count (60+million). They are a physically conjoined city, where one can walk on paved streets surrounded by buildings from one end to the other. No countryside, no jumps.

The 2015 World Bank Report is here which announced it had become the world's most populous urban area.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/...-biggest-city/
Demographia doesn’t count it as an urban area as they consider both to separate metro areas. They explain their criteria, getting specific about some metro areas in the first 30 pages of their PDF.

City Population, on the other hand, does. However, their list has much more problematic cases.

—————————

About Guangzhou-Shenzhen, where does this 60 million figure comes from? The sum of the four main municipalities, which are huge in area, are merely above 40 million.

And about being connected by streets, well, in theory you can go from all the way from São Paulo to Campinas that way, but they are still clearly to separated metro areas.

Maybe in some years in the future, with a bigger population and an upgraded mass transit system, Guangzhou-Shenzhen (or Shanghai-Suzhou) might work as an one city.
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  #63  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2019, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by SIGSEGV View Post
South Bend has commuter rail to Chicago. Trenton has commuter rail to both Philly and NYC.
Exactly. Just because cities are linked by "commuter rail" doesn't mean they should be lumped together. In the northeast corridor, AMTRAK largely functions as a commuter rail. The greater L.A. area has a commuter rail system (Metrolink) that extends way out to the Mojave (Lancaster & Palmdale) and way east to Riverside, and way northwest to Ventura and way south to San Clemente and then links to San Diego by the connecting Coaster commuter rail that meets Metrolink in San Clemente. The "commuter rails" are just interurban rail lines connecting different population centers. Some of the people that live in the distant centers hold jobs in the core city of the megalopolis. The outer cities started as discreet towns, but gradually were absorbed into "megalopolis". Deciding where one city (or metro area) ends and another begins is a near hopeless task, although where people work and shop and recreate and are governed from gives clues.

Last edited by CaliNative; Sep 27, 2019 at 10:21 AM.
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  #64  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2019, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by CaliNative View Post
Exactly. Just because cities are linked by "commuter rail" doesn't mean they should be lumped together. In the northeast corridor, AMTRAK largely functions as a commuter rail.
Not really. Amtrak in the NE corridor is very expensive and not practical for work. And practically the entire corridor has heavy frequency commuter rail. Amtrak in NE Corridor is used as intercity rail.

But yeah, just because there's commuter rail doesn't mean it's part of the metro. NYC now has commuter rail to Springfield, MA, via the new Hartford line. But no one would claim Springfield (or even Hartford) is part of the NYC metro. The furthest they would go is by CSA, which would be New Haven.
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  #65  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2019, 6:15 PM
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Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
....

Maybe in some years in the future, with a bigger population and an upgraded mass transit system, Guangzhou-Shenzhen (or Shanghai-Suzhou) might work as an one city.
i've spent a lot of time in HK / SZ / GZ.

in no way does it practically function as a single region. HK and SZ, yes, although locals are somewhat loathe to deal with the painful border crossings on a frequent basis. for a foreigner, it's even more maddening with what seem to be 8 separate checks/gates in each trip.

guangzhou is a totally separate place. nobody i've ever met (we have offices all over china, multiple projects in guangzhou, etc) routinely goes back and forth between the two, nor do they consider hong kong and guangzhou terribly related. it's true that one can travel on the surface between them and hardly see anything other than hardscape and buildings except for the green belt at the border, but that doesn't make it a single place.
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  #66  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2019, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by mthd View Post
i've spent a lot of time in HK / SZ / GZ.

in no way does it practically function as a single region. HK and SZ, yes, although locals are somewhat loathe to deal with the painful border crossings on a frequent basis. for a foreigner, it's even more maddening with what seem to be 8 separate checks/gates in each trip.

guangzhou is a totally separate place. nobody i've ever met (we have offices all over china, multiple projects in guangzhou, etc) routinely goes back and forth between the two, nor do they consider hong kong and guangzhou terribly related. it's true that one can travel on the surface between them and hardly see anything other than hardscape and buildings except for the green belt at the border, but that doesn't make it a single place.
I think Foshan is probably the only part of the PRD that is actually integrated with Guangzhou, given that they share a Metro system.

I've never crossed the HK / mainland border except via HSR and air, where the border checks are the same as they are for any other international travel - one passport check to leave the mainland, and another to enter HK (or vice versa). Mainlanders have the same. Is it any different at the SZ / HK checkpoints?
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  #67  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2019, 7:07 AM
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Hong Kong isn't considered part of the Pearl River Delta City because of the border, plus the fact a good few miles of paddy fields seperate the two.

To reiterate the Pearl River Delta City, pop 42 million is contiguous - not to be confused with the metro that is the Pearl River Delta 60 million+ that isn't.

Once again (and Demographia needs to pay attention too):


Overview of Guangzhou, Dongguan and Shenzhen. If you think they're seperate, you'll have to pretend the 8 million people in Dongguan don't exist.




www.newgeography.com

Zoom - the link between Guangzhou and Dongguan:




...and the link between Dongguan and Shenzhen:





The transport systems are now consolidating

Intercity. The soaring demand for commuting between the cities means there's a third high speed link now being built planned between Shenzhen and Guangzhou.:




plus the world's biggest metro system covering all three cities is being built, at 2000km (810 km completed as of 2018).

Next few years will see Shenzhen's 300km system connect up with Guangzhou's 478km system, overtaking Shanghai to become the world's largest. Demographia will then definitely need to update. This year Dongguan's system (red) will connect up with a line on Shenzhen's (purple, bottom right):


Last edited by muppet; Sep 29, 2019 at 7:29 AM.
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  #68  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2019, 5:29 PM
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^^
Exactly. They don't even share a same transit system to be regarded as a single metro area. Till all those schemes be in place, and the commute patterns rearrange, it's better to regard Guangzhou-Foshan and Shenzhen as separated areas. Dongguan, might be split between them.

BTW, this 60 million figure include what municipalities? As 2017 (the latest estimate), those four municipalities + Zhongshan and Zhuhai are at 48.1 million people, with a much more moderate growth compared to the previous decade.
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  #69  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2019, 10:53 AM
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Let's get this straight, so even though there are roads, rail and physical streets singularly, they are denied that singularity because the vast metro system is not yet connected up/ still being built? By rights that means my district which lacks the tube but has a 28km long tram network instead, isnt part of the rest of London, or the DLR (Dockands Light Railway) for that matter that services all of East London thus omits it.

The 'inter'city rail (not to be confused with the high speed links, nor the metro systems) between the cities - the PRD MAIR network will reach 600km by the end of this year, and has 85 operating stations (not counting another 27 on the Guangzhou Circular). There are 4 major lines. 2 connect Guangzhou all the way to Zhuhai / Zhaoqing on the west side of the delta, and one line to Shenzhen on the east side. Another connects Dongguan to Huizhou in the east, and another will open this year that connects Foshan to Dongguan. All have dozens and dozens of teeming, urban stops between the city centres - not so much intercity as just a normal rail network for one city and its major nodes.

The metro count would take in at least 9 cities, 3 more than the ones we've listed so far including Jiangmen, Zhaoqing and Huizhou (about 59 million people 2017).
Note the intercity rail, now all built (and that will triple in size by the next decade, to almost match all the metro networks combined)

www.economist.com

https://geoshen.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com


The population is projected to hit 70 million by the 2030s and will start to decline by the 2050s.


Last edited by muppet; Oct 1, 2019 at 11:59 AM.
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  #70  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2019, 2:08 AM
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Dongguan aerial:



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  #71  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2019, 2:12 AM
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Jiangmen

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  #72  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2019, 1:00 AM
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Thanks, those are a leetle bit dated though.

Dongguan, once (in)famous as China's main factory city for the past 2 decades today has a new centre, finally. It was for a long time China's ugliest major city made up mostly of factory suburbs:




But is finally starting to reinvest the rewards



And is building a 1400ft supertall




Jiangmen is more famous for its built history and the fortified Kaiping villas from the last century


https://alchetron.com

www.discoverchinatours.com

but also it's US style sprawl



It's otherwise a nondescript city but is also getting a new centre


www.decorativeboards.com


Last edited by muppet; Oct 4, 2019 at 1:43 AM.
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  #73  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2019, 1:11 AM
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The other city centres:

Foshan


https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showt...hp?p=157203984

https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showt...hp?p=157203984


Huizhou


https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showt...hp?p=157203984


Zhongshan (the cleanest eco-city-ish but most boring one of the lot)


www.zs.gov.cn

http://en1.sugoo.com/Pages/Attract/2152.htm

www.waterfrontsnl.com

Yantian - the last part of the eastern side of the delta (not inc. HK)


https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showt...hp?p=157203984



Zhuhai (metro) - the last part of the western side of the delta (not inc. Macau)


https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showt...hp?p=157203984


And of course the two biggies:

Guangzhou


Lifeng, https://i.imgur.com/xwI7gJW.jpg


Shenzhen


https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showt...hp?p=157203984


Shenzhen, China by kc ma, on Flickr

Last edited by muppet; Oct 4, 2019 at 1:34 AM.
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  #74  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2019, 2:12 AM
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These Chinese cities are literally the future in the making.
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  #75  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2019, 4:55 AM
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The amount of development in China is insane.
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  #76  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2019, 5:08 AM
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Originally Posted by muppet View Post
plus the world's biggest metro system covering all three cities is being built, at 2000km (810 km completed as of 2018).
No, this isn't a "metro". They're connecting the metropolitan rail systems, like what Rhein-Ruhr in Germany did 40 years ago. But that doesn't make for a "metro". And the rail connections aren't subway-style "metro", in the Chinese context it just means rail, whether subway, light rail or commuter rail.

Tokyo is still the world's largest metro, and has, by far, the world's largest "metro" rail system. Jakarta metro will probably top Tokyo in the next 20 years, though. But Tokyo's rail system won't be topped in any of our lifetimes.
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  #77  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2019, 8:17 AM
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I think you may be confused. There's the PRD Mair that is coming up to 600 km on the mainline rail system (not HSR).




Then there are the metro systems for each city that add up to 815km as of 2018, but will likely surpass 1000km this year - or halfway stage in their expansions to connect up:

Guangzhou -Foshan (China's first intra-city metro that connected up in 2010. Currently the world's third longest after Beijing and Shanghai at 487km - but possibly world's largest now as it had 325km u/c - and 3rd highest ridership)


www.travelchinaguide.com, www.chinadaily.com.cn


Shenzhen (world's 12th longest - 294km -and 6th highest ridership, or about 200 million more journeys than NYC).


www.mtr.com.hk

It's currently 'connected' to HK's network but still with the border control.


https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/com...hen_metro_map/


and Dongguan, 38km - only 1 line but 3 other u/c. Next year it will connect up with Shenzhen's


http://en.gde.cc/Audience/info.aspx?...anZhongRuChang, https://www.thatsmags.com/shenzhen/p...n-and-dongguan


To reiterate those systems are already connected up by the PRD MAIR (read: mainine rail system), but are working to connect themselves up without it also.

Last edited by muppet; Oct 4, 2019 at 9:12 AM.
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  #78  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2019, 1:33 PM
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China is also in for some serious demographic shock in about 50 or so years...it's aging and fast. Like Japan is right now. Those subways will be shuffling a lot of old folks people Guangzhou and Shenzen.
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  #79  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2019, 10:50 PM
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It's a shame Chinese cities didn't mimic Japanese urbanism. They would be much more interesting and exciting places. All the old urban tissue were destroyed, replaced by freeways and by those infamous "towers-in-the-park". It's an urbanism nightmare.
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  #80  
Old Posted Oct 5, 2019, 12:09 AM
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I went to Shanghai once and found it quite pleasant. I feel that Shanghai might not be a good place to visit, but would be a good place to live (were I Chinese).
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