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View Poll Results: What is the second most urban US city after NYC?
Boston 3 5.00%
Chicago 28 46.67%
DC 0 0%
LA 6 10.00%
Philly 7 11.67%
San Francisco 16 26.67%
some other city 0 0%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

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  #61  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2019, 8:01 PM
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Originally Posted by softee View Post
A few miles further West along Lawrence avenue brings you to this decidedly urban looking neighbourhood (Weston,in York) with pre-war storefront retail mixed with high-rise residential buildings. The closest thing in look and feel within the U.S. to something like this so far from the city centre would be one of NYC's outer borough hoods in some far flung section of Queen's or the Bronx.

https://goo.gl/maps/pzFicKDajTUkzmGN7 (pan around for the full view)

Suburban Toronto can suddenly become quite urban looking in certain areas.
There's dozens of places like this in cities such as Boston, San Francisco, Philadelphia, not to mention the many in Chicago.

That intersection has a large scale of building that's impressive to look at for that intersection alone, but its not like the Bronx or Queens at all, which radiates busy commercial streets outward in every direction, leading up to it and connecting to more. You walk in any direction in that google link you sent and it just ends. It's more like a village.
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  #62  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2019, 8:15 PM
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Here's what I'm referring to with Chicago in comparison.

Take

A 5 minute walk from that photo, the main street becomes strictly residential. Residential-only streets aren't going to have people walking up and down them frequently by design.

https://goo.gl/maps/7ZcZhi82hGwHuoW18


Compare it to 63rd in Chicago

https://goo.gl/maps/Nc6G89ijdgsbyN6j7

You can walk on Kedzie and you'll still see people, then 1/2 mile over, you arrive to another street,

https://goo.gl/maps/M2dsaBsFvZUE56LY6

You can keep doing this for hours upon end in Chicago. It may not be people wall to wall, but its always enough to make it look alive.
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  #63  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2019, 8:15 PM
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Originally Posted by chris08876 View Post
He might be referring to daytime population which in 2012 was calculated/studied at 4 million. Presently, its probally like 300-400k more on any given weekday so 4.3/4.4 million within 22 sq-miles.

But purely population (residents), yeah thats its false.


.
correct. Why would we measure Manhattan by residential population, when the city literally is never only inhabited by residents. Same is true of pretty much every major city but exponentially more so in Manhattan.
     
     
  #64  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2019, 8:34 PM
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In terms of day time density/sq-mile ratio, I believe DC has the highest day time population outside of NYC for its size and the % gained relative to its actual residential population during/after rush hour.

Washington DC can be incredible dense during working hours.
     
     
  #65  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2019, 8:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Segun View Post
There's dozens of places like this in cities such as Boston, San Francisco, Philadelphia, not to mention the many in Chicago.
I'd be interested in seeing some of these dozens of high density urban neighbourhood nodes 10 miles from the city centre in those other cities (I know Chicago has some stretching for miles North along the lakefront, but what about going inland?)

Weston originally was a village that later became part of the borough of York and the City of Toronto. North York Centre is another huge hi-rise and commercial node 10 miles North of the city centre along Yonge Street in what was at one time the village of Willowdale, so like Weston it tends to peter out to more typical low density post-war suburbia pretty quickly once you leave the main commercial street.

I'm just saying that Toronto tends to have these sudden outcroppings of tall, urban looking high density areas in the middle of other wise low to medium density areas that look and feel like fairly major downtowns (Yonge and Eglinton in the old city is another such area) that you don't really find in American cities other than NYC.
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  #66  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2019, 8:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Segun View Post
Here's what I'm referring to with Chicago in comparison.

Take

A 5 minute walk from that photo, the main street becomes strictly residential. Residential-only streets aren't going to have people walking up and down them frequently by design.

https://goo.gl/maps/7ZcZhi82hGwHuoW18


Compare it to 63rd in Chicago

https://goo.gl/maps/Nc6G89ijdgsbyN6j7


You can walk on Kedzie and you'll still see people, then 1/2 mile over, you arrive to another street,

https://goo.gl/maps/M2dsaBsFvZUE56LY6

You can keep doing this for hours upon end in Chicago. It may not be people wall to wall, but its always enough to make it look alive.
Toronto's equivalent to those kinds of streets would be Eglinton Avenue, Oakwood Avenue and such, as they are outlying commercial strips within the pre-war part of the city.

https://goo.gl/maps/zucyqu2bosAjAHm2A

https://goo.gl/maps/vysLsySCrbt38nwL9
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  #67  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2019, 8:54 PM
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Originally Posted by softee View Post
I'd be interested in seeing some of these dozens of high density urban neighbourhood nodes 10 miles from the city centre in those other cities (I know Chicago has some stretching for miles North along the lakefront, but what about going inland?)

Weston originally was a village that later became part of the borough of York and the City of Toronto. North York Centre is another huge hi-rise and commercial node 10 miles North of the city centre along Yonge Street in what was at one time the village of Willowdale, so like Weston it tends to peter out to more typical low density post-war suburbia pretty quickly once you leave the main commercial street.

I'm just saying that Toronto tends to have these sudden outcroppings of tall, urban looking high density areas in the middle of other wise low to medium density areas that look and feel like fairly major downtowns (Yonge and Eglinton in the old city is another such area) that you don't really find in American cities other than NYC.
Miami and dc have plenty of these areas, but they are barely discussed here (at least compared to north York, Mississauga etc

You don’t here Miami formers claiming that north Miami Beach makes Miami urban , not so you hear dc forumers extolling the virtues of Reston or tysons corner
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  #68  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2019, 8:58 PM
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Originally Posted by softee View Post
I'd be interested in seeing some of these dozens of high density urban neighbourhood nodes 10 miles from the city centre in those other cities (I know Chicago has some stretching for miles North along the lakefront, but what about going inland?)

Weston originally was a village that later became part of the borough of York and the City of Toronto. North York Centre is another huge hi-rise and commercial node 10 miles North of the city centre along Yonge Street in what was at one time the village of Willowdale, so like Weston it tends to peter out to more typical low density post-war suburbia pretty quickly once you leave the main commercial street.

I'm just saying that Toronto tends to have these sudden outcroppings of tall, urban looking high density areas in the middle of other wise low to medium density areas that look and feel like fairly major downtowns (Yonge and Eglinton in the old city is another such area) that you don't really find in American cities other than NYC.

Many intersections far far away from Chicago's downtown have high-density commercial corridors. The two examples I posted fit the bill. They don't look as visually impressive in terms of highrises, but the number of walkup businesses fits the urban definition, especially when you see them in action. There's always people on corners nearly everywhere you go in Chicago. They don't have high rises, but with plenty of walk up businesses, high rises or even mid rises aren't needed.

https://goo.gl/maps/6iKn454W1ZdbzbLF9

Even in the hood, where things have decayed badly, the walk up businesses that are still intact attract people who, well, walk up and do business.

https://goo.gl/maps/AD1eETC9HP7BwKPP8

Compare it to a street like this, what's the incentive for a pedestrian to walk here:

https://goo.gl/maps/2Q52eXpYfHKVP9rr8

Chicago seems to encourage continous pedestrian use over a larger area. It was always built that way. There's far more of this https://goo.gl/maps/UubKimkApn3W5nMT6 in Chicago, simply because it was a much larger city before the automobile and in the streetcar era.
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  #69  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2019, 9:04 PM
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The downtown area in Toronto was nowhere near as grand as Chicago, but Chicago’s downtown seemed gappier in the lively vs not lively areas/streets.
My experiences with Chicago is that the “urban” portion of the city extends much further than in Toronto. However the main streets do tend to be gappier, with some exceptions of course. There are many reasons for this which I have expanded on in the past but the distinct lack of speculative development and loss leading transit in prewar toronto are some big ones. And Chicago being much, much larger at the time of course.
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  #70  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2019, 9:09 PM
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Chicago is "gappier" overall, I agree, especially considering what urban decay did to Chicago, but the bones for an extremely large bustling city have enough "meat" on them where they didn't change the urbane habits of Chicagoans (like Detroit).
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  #71  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2019, 9:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Segun View Post
Chicago is "gappier" overall, I agree, especially considering what urban decay did to Chicago, but the bones for an extremely large bustling city have enough "meat" on them where they didn't change the urbane habits of Chicagoans (like Detroit).
Even on neighbourhood commercial streets Chicago retail buildings tend to be bigger and grander than their counterparts in Toronto. Stems from some of the same reasons I mentioned. Central toronto buildings are quite narrow and packed in - makes for some interesting and awkward layouts.
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  #72  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2019, 9:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Investing In Chicago View Post
correct. Why would we measure Manhattan by residential population, when the city literally is never only inhabited by residents. Same is true of pretty much every major city but exponentially more so in Manhattan.
So then why compare Manhattan’s daytime population to Chicago’s residential population? You did it, not anyone else.
     
     
  #73  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2019, 9:35 PM
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You're right, Toronto is residentially more suburban off of the main corridors, and I kind of forgot about that. I guess I was thinking larger because there seem to be more lively and extensive pedestrian commercial streets than Chicago? And sorry I have bad taste and like Dundas Sqauare. So the downtown felt livelier to me. The thing with Chicago is that Michigan Avenue is absolutely world class, but you go over one street and it's parking podiums, not much retail, and no pedestrians. The Loop is architecturally stunning but it's also not especially activated in a retail or pedestrian sense.

Based on a recent visit to Chicago, that was my impression as well. While more numerous, Chicago's neighbourhood commercial strips have a lot of gaps in the urban fabric and pedestrian vibrancy (the problem I think, being that there are just too many for any to really develop a critical mass). Toronto's are more consistent, finer grained, and used more intensely.

Of course, Chicago's traditional pre-war built form is considerably more extensive than Toronto's and was built up more intensely; but has also suffered far more decline. As a result, when it comes to commonly used metrics of urbanity, Toronto now has higher density, higher transit usage, more high-rises, etc. What makes which city more urban? Matter of opinion I guess. Either way, if Canada were included in this, Toronto and Montreal would be safely in that same nebulous second tier, not really any obviously higher or lower than those five American cities.

But, not really relevant as this is one just one of many other USA-only threads!
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  #74  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2019, 9:42 PM
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Miami and dc have plenty of these areas, but they are barely discussed here (at least compared to north York, Mississauga etc

You don’t here Miami formers claiming that north Miami Beach makes Miami urban , not so you hear dc forumers extolling the virtues of Reston or tysons corner
North Miami Beach is not urban.

And Miami does not have “plenty” of urban areas. South Miami Beach (the most urban part of all of south Florida) and downtown Coral Gables (urban lite) are arguably the only two areas outside of downtown Miami/Brickell that are urban in nature... and downtown/Brickell ain’t all that urban.
     
     
  #75  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2019, 9:45 PM
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So then why compare Manhattan’s daytime population to Chicago’s residential population? You did it, not anyone else.
No I didn’t, you just made that up.

Manhattan has more people on its 22sq miles than the entire 227 sq miles of Chicago - residential, tourist, office, etc.
     
     
  #76  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2019, 9:52 PM
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North Miami Beach is not urban.

And Miami does not have “plenty” of urban areas. South Miami Beach (the most urban part of all of south Florida) and downtown Coral Gables (urban lite) are arguably the only two areas outside of downtown Miami/Brickell that are urban in nature... and downtown/Brickell ain’t all that urban.
I was talking about major high rise clusters , not ‘urban’ areas
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  #77  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2019, 9:59 PM
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I was talking about major high rise clusters , not ‘urban’ areas
In my previous post I was referring to outlying high-rise/commercial nodes within the main city proper, not neighbouring cities, suburbs or edge cities such as Miami Beach or Tysons Corner.
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  #78  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2019, 10:16 PM
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No I didn’t, you just made that up.

Manhattan has more people on its 22sq miles than the entire 227 sq miles of Chicago - residential, tourist, office, etc.
I wish there was a way to quantify how many folks are in Manhattan 1 or 2 WEEKS before Christmas. NYC during December is an absolute, insane mad house. Forget car gridlock, we are talking people gridlock. Just an absurd wave of humanity and traffic. The last 2 weekends or last 2 Fridays before December 25th arguably have to be the busiest time within any given calendar year bar special events like parades that are isolated to specific areas only. Not just Midtown, but I've noticed mass chaos of people and traffic throughout the boroughs. When you see the gridlock alert signs, its beginning to look like Christmas!!!

Its almost laughable how many people are on the streets. Aside from the high hotel prices, booking a visit during December is not advised for those that don't like people in very, very close contact. Penn Station really shows its bad side during December.

Honorable mentions to the day before New Year.
     
     
  #79  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2019, 10:28 PM
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In my previous post I was referring to outlying high-rise/commercial nodes within the main city proper, not neighbouring cities, suburbs or edge cities such as Miami Beach or Tysons Corner.
But I think that distinction is meaningless here, Tyson and Miami Beach are part of the main urban area just as much as north York or Eglington, which are only part of Toronto due to amalgamation
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  #80  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2019, 10:32 PM
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Compare it to a street like this, what's the incentive for a pedestrian to walk here:

https://goo.gl/maps/2Q52eXpYfHKVP9rr8

Chicago seems to encourage continous pedestrian use over a larger area. It was always built that way. There's far more of this https://goo.gl/maps/UubKimkApn3W5nMT6 in Chicago, simply because it was a much larger city before the automobile and in the streetcar era.
That stretch of Ellesmere Ave does look pretty bleak, but if you pan around you see it's just a short distance from Scarborough Centre, which is a major high density and employment node with many residential towers (and some office towers), a large shopping centre, high transit usage/frequency etc.

Chicago does has some outlying streets that look pretty similar to that stretch of Ellesmere, but without all that intensification.

https://goo.gl/maps/bmwyC1uMf1hJGQV97

Granted, yes due to its larger size up to the pre-war era, Chicago does have more traditionally walkable urban outlying commercial corridors within city limits, while Toronto has more auto centric suburban looking commercial corridors within city limits, but between these two examples of the latter I'd rather live in the Toronto one over the Chicago one.
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