Is Canadian identity getting stronger or weaker among the younger generation?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

It's probably a factor in making Canadian identity more user-friendly to a newcomer or immigrant in that having ancestors who lived among the historical sites and places is not seen as being as important for being Canadian as for many other countries.

For example, it doesn't really matter if your ancestors lived at the time of specific events that defined or shook the nation, like the American Revolution or Civil War, or the Storming of the Bastille, etc., if one's national identity is based on beavers and moose, or maple syrup or hockey, or multiculturalism. After all, anyone can visit a national park and see moose or play hockey today right after stepping off the plane. With these things, you could argue "old stock" and "new Canadians are no more or less connected to going to a park to see a moose or going down to the rink to play hockey. While, for something like say the battlefields of the American Civil War, it means much more to "old stock" Americans than new Americans..

I think in its fundamental origins it's more related to what the Australians call "culture cringe" and an obsession with not appearing tacky, than it is anything about making immigrants feel more included. (Though granted, this may have turned out to be one of the effects.)

In most countries people whose ancestors had little to do with the national iconography still generally share in it. Or at the very least respect it and don't roundly dismiss it.

In countries like France that have issues with the integration of immigrant groups it's easy to say that that's because the well-defined national identity isn't one that newcomers can associate with, and is too rigid. But I'd disagree and point to a host of other factors - that yes, can largely be blamed as much on France itself as on the newcomers' attitudes and behaviour. But if you look at France and its identity millions of people from every origin in the world have integrated into it successfully.

The same can be said for the mainstream American identity BTW.

[MolsonExport]

Marseille is considered an outlier in France. The French say so, and so do the Marseillaise.
In many ways, the place has more in common with other Mediterranean cities than with other French cities.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Marseille is considered an outlier in France. The French say so, and so do the Marseillaise.
In many ways, the place has more in common with other Mediterranean cities than with other French cities.

Regarding Marseille, well they do get their name on the national anthem (La Marseillaise), even though the original name refers to the Alsace region: Chant de guerre pour l'armée du Rhin...

I wonder if people in regions like Brittany feel like it's not representative of them?

[Acajack]

Personally I am not an Albertan nor even a Westerner but I don't really care if stuff like the Banff Springs Hotel with the Rockies as a backdrop is used as Canadian imagery. I am also not Inuit but don't care if they want to use inukshuks.

I am not from Quebec City or the Gaspésie but don't mind if the Château Frontenac or the Percé rock are used to represent the province as opposed to, say, Gatineau Park. I am even mature enough to understand why that is the case.

I also don't really care much if the dominant personality stereotype of Canadians is reserved and self-effacing, even if it doesn't fit the more commonly observed behavioural traits in the rather large portion of Canada where I live, and where people tend to be more rambunctious and outspoken.

C'est la vie.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Regarding Marseille, well they do get their name on the national anthem (La Marseillaise), even though the original name refers to the Alsace region: Chant de guerre pour l'armée du Rhin...

I wonder if people in regions like Brittany feel like it's not representative of them?

The Alsace region was a region commonly mired in border conflicts throughout France's history, over the centuries changing hands between France and Germany often, so much so that the adjective "Alsatian" in English historically became a byword or figure of speech representing a lawless or chaotic place the way we'd describe say, Somalia today.

But I'm not sure if Alsatians today have any hang ups about their German heritage and past with regard to belonging in the French nation.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

The Alsace region was a region commonly mired in border conflicts throughout France's history, over the centuries changing hands between France and Germany often, so much so that the adjective "Alsatian" in English historically became a byword or figure of speech representing a lawless or chaotic place the way we'd describe say, Somalia today.

But I'm not sure if Alsatians today have any hang ups about their German heritage and past with regard to belonging in the French nation.

Pretty sure they're very close to 100% French in terms of allegiance and identity, and aren't in any way nostalgic for the German-ruled period(s).

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Personally I am not an Albertan nor even a Westerner but I don't really care if stuff like the Banff Springs Hotel with the Rockies as a backdrop is used as Canadian imagery. I am also not Inuit but don't care if they want to use inukshuks.

I am not from Quebec or the Gaspésie but don't mind if the Château Frontenac or the Percé rock are used to represent the province as opposed to, say, Gatineau Park. I am even mature enough to understand why that is the case.

I also don't really care much if the dominant personality stereotype of Canadians is reserved and self-effacing, even if it doesn't fit the more commonly observed behavioural traits in the rather large portion of Canada where I live, and where people tend to be more rambunctious and outspoken.

C'est la vie.

Well one symbol that's uncontroversial even if it only represents one part of Canada (and the older, "Laurentian" part) is the sugar maple, the species of maple tree used for maple syrup.

It's not found out west, say on the prairies or BC, or in the territories where it's too cold, but pretty much there is agreement that maple syrup represents Canada and Canadians on the world stage.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Pretty sure they're very close to 100% French in terms of allegiance and identity, and aren't in any way nostalgic for the German-ruled period(s).

France is an example of a country that seems to have been able to successfully incorporate its regions into a unified whole very well. There doesn't appear to be strong separatist or regional identities within it unlike many other European nations that have them like Spain, Belgium etc.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

France is an example of a country that seems to have been able to successfully incorporate its regions into a unified whole very well. There doesn't appear to be strong separatist or regional identities within it unlike many other European nations that have them like Spain, Belgium etc.

That's because the regional identities and languages were actively suppressed: see "Jacobins" for example.

But France has had separatist and even terrorist movements in Corsica.

In the Hexagone (mainland France) it's true that it's quite rare. Even places that are uppity across the border (Basque country and Catalonia) are generally quiet in France.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Well one symbol that's uncontroversial even if it only represents one part of Canada (and the older, "Laurentian" part) is the sugar maple, the species of maple tree used for maple syrup.

It's not found out west, say on the prairies or BC, or in the territories where it's too cold, but pretty much there is agreement that maple syrup represents Canada and Canadians on the world stage.

I've even heard people bitch about that, believe it or not.

BTW every province in Canada has a native species of maple. If not the sugar maple.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I've even heard people bitch about that, believe it or not.

I find that hard to believe. At least the maple leaf seems cross-country enough but I suppose then you can have the territories where it's too cold to grow maples of any kind at all complain.

Taking to its logical conclusion, the only symbol of Canada that can exist then, is the entirety of Canada itself.

Reminds me of a story by Borges about a map maker for a king that demands as accurate a map as possible.

Every time the map maker brings a newly made map of the empire to the king, the king complains that there's some detail missing, so that the map maker needs to add it in.

In the end the only option was to use a map as big as the literal country itself, where every feature on the land exists on the map too.
And then you might as well just use the country itself as the map.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

France is an example of a country that seems to have been able to successfully incorporate its regions into a unified whole very well. There doesn't appear to be strong separatist or regional identities within it unlike many other European nations that have them like Spain, Belgium etc.

But they kind of took a page from the residential schools playbook in order to do so, forcing standard Île-de-France French onto everyone with the goal of destroying regional patois and dialects.

Madrid could've crushed Catalan regional identity earlier had they "had the foresight" to do that, but nowadays it's harder to do such things (forced assimilation).

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Pretty sure they're very close to 100% French in terms of allegiance and identity, and aren't in any way nostalgic for the German-ruled period(s).

We have a family friend (still alive in her 90s) whose mom spoke Alsatian only, no French at all. It was very possible to live like that not that long ago (a few generations only) on the left bank of the Rhine.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by lio45

But they kind of took a page from the residential schools playbook in order to do so, forcing standard Île-de-France French onto everyone with the goal of destroying regional patois and dialects.

Madrid could've crushed Catalan regional identity earlier had they "had the foresight" to do that, but nowadays it's harder to do such things (forced assimilation).

Not to mention regional languages.

[GlassCity]

Purely coincidentally, today the topic of Canadian multiculturalism came up between me and two friends, all of us being younger than 30 and all of us immigrants. One of us immigrated to Canada 3 years ago from Africa, and he said that he found it odd that there were places where assimilation into Canadian culture is weaker, and said that he disagreed with it. The third friend, without missing a beat, asked "if Canadian culture even exists." After I pressed him on it, he said "well maybe our culture is to let other people bring in and establish their cultures." Basically the perspective I talked about this morning.

So if the above is an example of what the original question was trying to ask, then no, Canadian identity is not any stronger among youth. It remains as elusive as ever. The difference I may hypothesize is that trying to find one is much less of a concern after all.

Maybe my friend, along with many other Canadians, is right. Maybe Canada's culture is simply multiculturalism. Maybe we are the world's first post-national state, that's grown out of archaic notions of what identity is. Maybe I'm less progressive than those who are fully comfortable with this. It seems to me though, that Canada has embraced this, and only time will be able to answer these questions.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Purely coincidentally, today the topic of Canadian multiculturalism came up between me and two friends, all of us being younger than 30 and all of us immigrants. One of us immigrated to Canada 3 years ago from Africa, and he said that he found it odd that there were places where assimilation into Canadian culture is weaker, and said that he disagreed with it. The third friend, without missing a beat, asked "if Canadian culture even exists." After I pressed him on it, he said "well maybe our culture is to let other people bring in and establish their cultures." Basically the perspective I talked about this morning.

So if the above is an example of what the original question was trying to ask, then no, Canadian identity is not any stronger among youth. It remains as elusive as ever. The difference I may hypothesize is that trying to find one is much less of a concern after all.

Maybe my friend, along with many other Canadians, is right. Maybe Canada's culture is simply multiculturalism. Maybe we are the world's first post-national state, that's grown out of archaic notions of what identity is. Maybe I'm less progressive than those who are fully comfortable with this. It seems to me though, that Canada has embraced this, and only time will be able to answer these questions.

I don't know that it's been unanimously embraced but sure the idea has a tremendous amount of currency at the moment. There are differences of opinion between individual Canadians though and even more starkly between some regions of the country.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't know that it's been unanimously embraced but sure the idea has a tremendous amount of currency at the moment. There are differences of opinion between individual Canadians though and even more starkly between some regions of the country.

Good point on the different regions, I actually always appreciate how you point out that we too often refer to Canada as though it was all English Canada. We can only talk about what we know though I suppose.

It could certainly still change, but it seems to me as being the country that most openly embraces multiculturalism in the world. Moreover, I also don't see Canada experiencing the same issues with this that Northern European countries have for instance, given our isolation and resultant ability to more effectively vet immigrants. This leads me to believe that Canada as a truly post-national state is at the very least possible.

People like kool maudit speak about the need to move past the liberal world order and look to people like Donald Trump and a return to the strength of the nation-state to do so. I might (not sure how confident I am in this) argue, however, that the nation-state is actually a key feature of the liberal world order. Therefore, having states transition away from this towards a model in which they are relatively benign containers for cultures around the world is actually the stronger breaking away from the liberal world order. Instead, it would bring us closer to a globalist, neoliberal order, though that may simply be the natural progression of the liberal world order.

I'm not saying any of that will happen, but I think it's a plausible future. If Canada's current direction is indeed tied towards that, I suppose it'll remain to be seen if it was a wise frontrunner or was simply the first to be duped.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

My father gave me a golf ball he found with my initials and a Canadian flag I joked it was nice to meet him.

No real change in the presence of Canadian symbolism here. It's always been strong. Every other house has a personal display of flags. Depending on the region of the province, some combination of the Canada, Union, Ireland, Newfoundland and Labrador (provincial), Newfoundland (tricolor), or Labrador flag is dominant. Clothing items with any of those things, and also the Newfoundland tartan, have also always been common. We've always had a strong visual presence of national and political views in that way. As a general rule, tends to be stronger in rural areas and tends to transition from tricolour to Canada flag heading west across the island, and change immediately to Labrador flag once there.

I've been pretty much everywhere on the island and also Labrador and agree about the flags found in households' displays. I took quite a few photos of them as it was interesting to see what combination of flags they were flying or what they chose as the only flag to fly.

You couldn't definitely tell where people were mostly from Irish or English background. The Eastern and Southern part of the Avalon peninsula really stood out as Irish which includes St. John's. I remember many tricolour flags. Definitely more maple leafs the more you head West. And the NL flag you would see anywhere but the least in rural Irish Avalon parts I think. It was interesting to see union jacks but understandable given NL's history.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Well one symbol that's uncontroversial even if it only represents one part of Canada (and the older, "Laurentian" part) is the sugar maple, the species of maple tree used for maple syrup.

It's not found out west, say on the prairies or BC, or in the territories where it's too cold, but pretty much there is agreement that maple syrup represents Canada and Canadians on the world stage.

The sugar maple is a poor symbol of Canada as a whole today. But it's a great symbol of Canada when it was founded. The maple leaf was one of the first symbols used when "Canada" became commonly used as a name (Upper and Lower Canada) and of course eventually confederation. The sugar maple grows in all four of the founding provinces and don't forget that only the southern parts of what is Ontario and Quebec today were part of it at that time. (Founding provinces: Ontario, Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia)

Sugar maples don't grow here in Timmins. I would have to drive about 3 hours South, if not a bit more to find a sugar bush.

[Loco101]

Is Canadian identity getting stronger or weaker among the younger generation?

From a Timmins perspective, I would say it hasn't changed very much. You don't hear people here discussing what it is to be Canadian. It's just something that we know we are. There doesn't seem to be any insecurity here like you see in the media (especially CBC) but maybe it's because we are far away from the U.S. border.

I was recently at a music conference in Huntsville where they was a huge push of "Canadian culture" and "Canadian" this and that. Support Canadian artist and music programs. But in reality, everything they were pushing was Toronto-based. It seemed kind of foreign to people from my region.

I also live in a place with large francophone and Indigenous populations. The mining culture here is quite strong as well.