Amalgamation of Metro Vancouver's municipalities

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by whatnext

I've been watching the Toronto mayoral race with interest. Looks like the common sense "suburban" voters are going to propel Rob Ford into the mayor's office.

You are kidding right?

Rob Ford is nothing more than a yappy buffoooooon who is better suited to be a stand-up comic at Yuk Yuk's. I frankly feel sorry for Torontonians.

BTW, here's Rob Ford in his finest hour:

• Video Link

[whatnext]

Don't get me wrong, I would never vote for Ford. But it looks like the electorate outside of the "downtown core" is so tired of free-spending left wing loonies they'll look at any alternative. Luckily for Gregor, there's a big enough core of left wing loonies in the CoV to probably keep him around. If the suburbs were voting on him, he'd be toast.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Don't get me wrong, I would never vote for Ford. But it looks like the electorate outside of the "downtown core" is so tired of free-spending left wing loonies they'll look at any alternative. Luckily for Gregor, there's a big enough core of left wing loonies in the CoV to probably keep him around. If the suburbs were voting on him, he'd be toast.

So because you don't like Gregor lets Amalgamate.

What if there is someone you like but because they come from Poco everyone else decides to vote against them.

Be careful what you wish for.

Just because you don't like a current mayor is no reason to change the political landscape just to suit your needs.

Basically if the people of the CoV feel Gregor and his crew haven't done a good job. They will be voted out in the next election.

But if the people of the Cov feel he has done a good job. They will vote in back in. Whether people outside of the CoV like him or not.

[Distill3d]

Originally Posted by whatnext

I've been watching the Toronto mayoral race with interest. Looks like the commonsense "suburban" voters are going to propel Rob Ford into the mayor's office.

Too bad Gordo doesn't have the stomach to force an amalgamation through. Gregor Robertson and his homeless chicken coops would be out on the pavement in no time!

Heh, well, neither Gordo or Mayor Moonbeam are known for making the popular decision, so just wait.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by cabotp

So because you don't like Gregor lets Amalgamate.

What if there is someone you like but because they come from Poco everyone else decides to vote against them.

Be careful what you wish for.

Just because you don't like a current mayor is no reason to change the political landscape just to suit your needs.

Basically if the people of the CoV feel Gregor and his crew haven't done a good job. They will be voted out in the next election.

But if the people of the Cov feel he has done a good job. They will vote in back in. Whether people outside of the CoV like him or not.

Not quite that simple. I believe decisions need to be made for the good of Metro Vancouver, not just the CoV anymore. Now we're being slowly marginalized because of the wishes of a few on the left.

[WBC]

Careful what you wish for. Even though you don't like Vancouver left wing policies you at least don't have to pay for them if you live elsewhere. Given the trends in Vancouver (such as increase in residential tax burden and unresolved situation with $1 billion debt over Olympic village) their taxes are just going to keep rising while suburbs suck away business and $$$ that come with them.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Not quite that simple. I believe decisions need to be made for the good of Metro Vancouver, not just the CoV anymore. Now we're being slowly marginalized because of the wishes of a few on the left.

Do you realize that in the past there have been right wing mayors and councils in Vancouver.

So Vancouver doesn't always vote a left wing council.

[paradigm4]

Originally Posted by cabotp

Do you realize that in the past there have been right wing mayors and councils in Vancouver.

So Vancouver doesn't always vote a left wing council.

In fact, through most of its history, the right wing NPA have dominated council. Very similar to provincial politics actually.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Distill3d

Heh, well, neither Gordo or Mayor Moonbeam are known for making the popular decision, so just wait.

And Gordo's on term three. For the record, I think that it's not the cities that need to amalgamate, but rather the common services. There are regional things that should come under a regional government. Of course, I doubt the province wants this, as it would shift power to the region and away from Victoria.

Translink was step in the right direction...

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

And Gordo's on term three. For the record, I think that it's not the cities that need to amalgamate, but rather the common services. There are regional things that should come under a regional government. Of course, I doubt the province wants this, as it would shift power to the region and away from Victoria.

Translink was step in the right direction...

Well water service is already provided on a regionally level.

[whatnext]

Interesting that a "Rob Ford for Mayor" banner popped up when I opened this page!

The G & M analyzes the Rob Ford phenomenom today. There's an interesting message for potential NPA strategy:

...But there is something a bit deeper going on in Toronto, city of four million elites. I haven’t seen a single focus group during this municipal campaign, but to get at what’s going on imagine a focus group of a Rob Ford swing voter (ie, a voter who is now leaning towards him but was not when the campaign started) and reasons why this imaginary voter says he’s supporting Ford (ie, these are his imaginary views, not mine):

» I drive my car to work every day. I am not a bad person just because I drive to work. I am tired of politicians who try to make me feel guilty for driving. There are no improvements to transit that would get me to stop driving. Period.

» I think the two biggest reasons there is so much traffic in this city are: (a) street-cars; and (b) bikes. I think politicians trying to bring more bikes and street-cars to Toronto are nuts. There is nothing you can say to me to convince me otherwise. Ford gets this.

» I will never install a solar panel on my roof and I think my neighbour who has them up is a bit of a weirdo.

» I don’t trust city hall to get anything done. My most regular interaction with city hall is garbage collection and snow removal and the city does a terrible job on both. I wish I could still put my garbage out every week and just throw the bags on the curb the way we did it for 50-years. I recycle but I have three kids and we have a lot of garbage. I don’t think a city can do all kinds of fancy things when they are so bad at the basics....

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ail-bureaublog

Of course, since we're not amalgamated the message may not resonate as well, but too often people forget about South and East Vancouver still being home to "regular folks", as opposed to granola-munching hipsters.

[cabotp]

So we should amalgamate so that "Regular" folks can get to work faster. Because god for bid if someone has to spend and extra 5 mins driving.

I'm actually curious when you say "South and East Vancouver" are you talking about the actual CoV. Or is this a reference to people who live in the Valley.

I get the feeling though that "regular" folks to you are right wing people who like to drive everywhere and be damned with the cyclists and people who take transit.

I'll say it again I don't want to amalgamate because I don't want people from Surrey or Richmond or wherever. Telling me that I have to build some kind of freeway up Knight street. Just so they can get to work faster.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by cabotp

So we should amalgamate so that "Regular" folks can get to work faster. Because god for bid if someone has to spend and extra 5 mins driving.

I'm actually curious when you say "South and East Vancouver" are you talking about the actual CoV. Or is this a reference to people who live in the Valley.

I get the feeling though that "regular" folks to you are right wing people who like to drive everywhere and be damned with the cyclists and people who take transit.

I'll say it again I don't want to amalgamate because I don't want people from Surrey or Richmond or wherever. Telling me that I have to build some kind of freeway up Knight street. Just so they can get to work faster.

Exactly the same kind of narrow argument used by the crème de la crème when they were up arms over the Canada Line going down Arbutus. BTW, right now Knight is the worst of both worlds. Why should you have the right to tell residents of Surrey or Richmond or "wherever" that the drawbridges should be drawn up at Vancouver's borders, if its counter to the best interests of the region as a whole?

By South and East Vancouver I was referring to the CoV. There's a tendency for the "Gordon Price's" of the world to assume everyone in Vancouver is a single urbanista who can walk or cycle to work, when that's definitely not the case. There's an opening to tap into their desire for reality-based thinking at City Hall.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by WBC

Careful what you wish for. Even though you don't like Vancouver left wing policies you at least don't have to pay for them if you live elsewhere. Given the trends in Vancouver (such as increase in residential tax burden and unresolved situation with $1 billion debt over Olympic village) their taxes are just going to keep rising while suburbs suck away business and $$$ that come with them.

That thinking goes both ways. If a more regionally balanced body was in power, we probably wouldn't be suck with idiotic ideas that drain the tax base. If a more rational metro group was in charge of the Olympic village, would the taxpayer be on the hook for tens of millions of social housing?

And drawing crucial business away from downtown could be very costly to the whole region. We have BILLIONS invested in infrastructure (roads and transit) that focuses on getting people around existing corridors into downtown. If Vancouver City screws that up and eviscerates downtown, that will be billions in investments by the taxpayers of the province gone to waste, and more investments needed to fix the problem.

And in terms of spreading the cost of Vancouver's taxes, that might also be justified. How many from outside the CoV enjoy Stanley Park, the Seawall, or QE park and the Blodel Conservatory? The Conservatory, a real gem of the entire Metro region, was almost axed by a short sighted inward focused underfunded park board. A regionally funded park board would probably not not have been in a position to even have to contemplate the notion.

[racc]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

That thinking goes both ways. If a more regionally balanced body was in power, we probably wouldn't be suck with idiotic ideas that drain the tax base. If a more rational metro group was in charge of the Olympic village, would the taxpayer be on the hook for tens of millions of social housing?

There were massive overruns on the Seymour filtration plant and that was a Metro Project. The Convention Centre came in at about twice the initial budget. All levels of government have projects that go sideways.

Originally Posted by BCPhil

And drawing crucial business away from downtown could be very costly to the whole region. We have BILLIONS invested in infrastructure (roads and transit) that focuses on getting people around existing corridors into downtown. If Vancouver City screws that up and eviscerates downtown, that will be billions in investments by the taxpayers of the province gone to waste, and more investments needed to fix the problem.

What are you talking about. There is no sign that the City of Vancouver is going to do anything that puts downtown at risk. Enough of the fear mongering.

Originally Posted by BCPhil

And in terms of spreading the cost of Vancouver's taxes, that might also be justified. How many from outside the CoV enjoy Stanley Park, the Seawall, or QE park and the Blodel Conservatory? The Conservatory, a real gem of the entire Metro region, was almost axed by a short sighted inward focused underfunded park board. A regionally funded park board would probably not not have been in a position to even have to contemplate the notion.

If the people of the region really wanted the Conservatory, it would have been getting more than 70,000 people a year visiting it, it would have been financially self-supporting and Parks Board would have not have had to consider closing it.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by racc

There were massive overruns on the Seymour filtration plant and that was a Metro Project. The Convention Centre came in at about twice the initial budget. All levels of government have projects that go sideways.

What are you talking about. There is no sign that the City of Vancouver is going to do anything that puts downtown at risk. Enough of the fear mongering.

If the people of the region really wanted the Conservatory, it would have been getting more than 70,000 people a year visiting it, it would have been financially self-supporting and Parks Board would have not have had to consider closing it.

I think you took my comments out of context. They were a reply to a previous post. I'm not "fear mongering", but countering WBC's opinion that putting downtown businesses at risk is a good thing for the rest of us. You see, if you read his post, he was saying that a left wing council that harms downtown as it is is good for the rest of us, I was saying that it's not. I wasn't declaring that is what is happening, but I was saying that it's in the regions best interests to keep it from happening. Please don't put words in my mouth because I really don't like the taste of the ones you provide.

And since when did you start thinking all parks and public institutions should be so free market? 73,000 visitors pay about $470,000 in admission fees annually at the Bloedel Conservatory, but still needs a subsidy of $240,000, or about $3 in subsidies per visit. I imagine there are a lot of parks around the city that get better subsidized, and a cost recovery of about 2/3's is pretty good for a public institution. In fact, when you compare it to the Park Board's overall budget, it's spectacular. The VPB has an annual budget of $102 million, of that, $42 million is from revenue (parking, fees...), and $60 million from taxes. So the fact that the Bloedel Conservatory beats that average is pretty good.

The building has lasted 40 years and needs $2 million in upgrades to last another 40, but that's too much apparently. Yet the city can drop $10 million on a streetcar track to be used for only 2 months (and seem to forget that it currently is still there) or spend $800,000 on a bike lane trial (following no community input or debate).

What it comes down to is CoV wanted to cut regionally used institutions (Conservatory and the farm in Stanley Park that they pay for but are used by people from all over) so they could pay for their local use based bike lane experiments.

I mean, It makes sense. If you were CoV, why keep paying for something other people enjoy, then not have enough money to build bike lanes for your citizens? So that's what I'm saying, that a regional city would have the money, obligation, and REASON, to actually do both.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by racc

There were massive overruns on the Seymour filtration plant and that was a Metro Project. The Convention Centre came in at about twice the initial budget. All levels of government have projects that go sideways.

Shelters for Homeless Chicken didn't go sideways. It was a stupid, idiotic idea from the word go.

Originally Posted by racc

What are you talking about. There is no sign that the City of Vancouver is going to do anything that puts downtown at risk. Enough of the fear mongering.

Originally Posted by racc

If the people of the region really wanted the Conservatory, it would have been getting more than 70,000 people a year visiting it, it would have been financially self-supporting and Parks Board would have not have had to consider closing it.

Cool, how much do you advocate we charge for admission to Stanley Park, for it to be self-supporting?

[jlousa]

Hmm that Rob Ford guy seems just as bad as Gregor just in the opposite direction. If we ever want to amalgamate it will need to occur with centre governments in power over a period of time. Does anyone foresee Burnaby's current council wanting to join with anyone? I don't imagine Diana Watts would be too interested either. It certainly makes sense but it's just not in the cards anytime soon.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by jlousa

Hmm that Rob Ford guy seems just as bad as Gregor just in the opposite direction. If we ever want to amalgamate it will need to occur with centre governments in power over a period of time. Does anyone foresee Burnaby's current council wanting to join with anyone? I don't imagine Diana Watts would be too interested either. It certainly makes sense but it's just not in the cards anytime soon.

That didn't make a difference in TO's case. Harris wanted it done, and it was done over the objections of the respective mayors. Right or wrong, it's estimated to have saved about $136 million a year.
http://www.toronto.ca/toronto_histor...mal_speech.htm

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Exactly the same kind of narrow argument used by the crème de la crème when they were up arms over the Canada Line going down Arbutus. BTW, right now Knight is the worst of both worlds. Why should you have the right to tell residents of Surrey or Richmond or "wherever" that the drawbridges should be drawn up at Vancouver's borders, if its counter to the best interests of the region as a whole?

By South and East Vancouver I was referring to the CoV. There's a tendency for the "Gordon Price's" of the world to assume everyone in Vancouver is a single urbanista who can walk or cycle to work, when that's definitely not the case. There's an opening to tap into their desire for reality-based thinking at City Hall.

I'm curious do you actually live in the City of Vancouver? From the posts your making you sound like someone from the Valley who is pissed off at the City of Vancouver for not doing what it should to make life easier for people from the Valley.

So your saying to make life easier for you and others we should just build a freeway right by my house. Just so that you and others can get to work a few minutes faster. Be damned with where I live. Do you not think that when I used to drive. I wasn't stuck in the same traffic as everyone else in Vancouver. I used to think man it sure would be nice if they just ellimanted all these lights and I could just get to where I want to go as quickly as possible. But I also realized it is the price we pay for living in the city.

You may think people in Vancouver are all being self centred and creme-de-la-creme. But truthfully they don't really care.