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Old Posted Jun 5, 2013, 12:31 AM
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Un petit question pour les gens ici

Bonjour! Desole pour ma francais...

Un amie de moi dit qu'il ne peut pas comprende le "Francais Terre Neuvien". C'est comme l'anglais ici - c'est vraiment... pas le meme chose... avec le langue en Canada.

Alors, ici c'est un exemple de Francais Terre Neuvien. Je ne sais pas comment dire... can you understand this French?

Video Link


Pour votre information, Emile Benoit (RIP), il sont un hero de tout les gens Terre Neuviene, l'anglais aussi. Un ange (?). Tout le province... fermer, totalement... quand il mort.

We miss him, very much. He made many songs as a gift to Newfoundland from its dying French community. Just think about what kind of selfless generosity a thing like that takes... and you'll understand why we love him so.

He was easily one of the last Newfoundlanders for whom French was a first language.

One of his gifts to Newfoundland music...

Video Link
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  #2  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2013, 1:23 AM
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Je comprends presque tout
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  #3  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2013, 2:20 AM
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Je comprends presque tout
Moi aussi.

I've got lot of Atlantic Canadian accents in my family so my ear is quite attuned to this.

I can even understand Cajuns in Louisiana (those that still speak French) most of the time.
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Old Posted Jun 5, 2013, 2:28 AM
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Vous êtes bons, parce que je comprenais presque rien au début.

Puis j'ai réécouté une deuxième fois, et j'ai compris la moitié.

En fait ça ressemble à du vieux Normand ou Picard.
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Old Posted Jun 5, 2013, 4:46 AM
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Je comprends environ 1/4 presque la moitié...Mais j'adore tout d'même la chanson "vive la rose" Thanks to have share that little tresor!
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Old Posted Jun 5, 2013, 5:45 AM
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I can understand most of it. I'm betting that he was from the Port au Port peninsula. Very cool and thanks for posting it.

I've been almost everywhere in Quebec and Newfoundland that you can drive to. One thing I've found interesting is that there are so many similarities between rural Quebeckers and Newfoundlanders in terms of traditions, folklore and community spirit. Both distinct societies within Canada.
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Old Posted Jun 5, 2013, 6:00 AM
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That was excellent SignalHillHiker. Thanks for the clips. He was hard to understand but it's also true for some old french folks in and around the Gaspé peninsula, that give us a hard time to understand in the rest of the province

Sadly, there were assimilation policies in Newfoundland after the war that prevented French from being thaugh in schools with the results that there aren't too many Emile Benoit left...

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3..._terre-neuvien
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Old Posted Jun 7, 2013, 4:05 AM
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It's a really super thick (and exotic to us) accent, and it sounds almost like a completely foreign language at first, but when you start to pay attention, you can get at least 80% of it.

IMO that guy is actually harder to understand than those older Louisiana cajuns, although that might be somewhat apples to oranges, because a face to face conversation is a fair bit more accent-forgiving than someone singing.
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Old Posted Jun 7, 2013, 11:36 AM
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Wow, thank you for your answers! Merci beaucoup!

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Originally Posted by franktko View Post
That was excellent SignalHillHiker. Thanks for the clips. He was hard to understand but it's also true for some old french folks in and around the Gaspé peninsula, that give us a hard time to understand in the rest of the province

Sadly, there were assimilation policies in Newfoundland after the war that prevented French from being thaugh in schools with the results that there aren't too many Emile Benoit left...

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3..._terre-neuvien
Shameful.

It always amazes me - for a culture that prides itself on being so tolerant and welcoming and inclusive - how poorly our two main non-English minorities (Beothuk First Nations, French) fared in the end. It's sometimes hard to reconcile facts with how you view yourself and your people.

There are basically none left - at least not for whom Newfoundland French is a first language. We have French families - from St-Pierre, Quebec, France, and elsewhere - but they are contemporary Newfoundlanders and rarely connected to our early French settlement. And there are families in certain areas - Port-au-Port, for example - who still speak French, but it usually wasn't their children's first language and it's... you know? It's like learning a folk dance at school, as opposed to growing up in a society where that's how people dance on weekends at the clubs.

We did the same with smaller minorities as well - Newfoundland Irish, for example, is the mother tongue of only a few families today. It used to be the dominant language in several parts of Newfoundland.

It was dominant enough that it influenced our English. Just about anything Newfoundlanders say that people from mainland Canada don't can be traced to two sources:

1. Archaic English expressions that died out elsewhere in the world but survived here. (Example: "I've never heard tell of that" instead of "I never heard about it" / "Ye" as the plural of "You", even in formal settings)

2. Structure and terms borrowed from Newfoundland Irish. (Example: Using "after" to indicate past tense, "I'm after asking her out!" / Using "to" to mean place, and "at" to mean action - "Where are you to?", "What are you at?", "I don't know where my keys are to", etc / And then words like sleveen (scoundrel), scrob (scratch), streel (messy person), etc.)

I'd love to see Newfoundland French properly revived.
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Old Posted Jun 7, 2013, 1:57 PM
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although that might be somewhat apples to oranges, because a face to face conversation is a fair bit more accent-forgiving than someone singing.
This very much. I know of plenty of songs in english where I can't understand a word of what's being sung and those usually aren't from some obscure dialect of the language.
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Old Posted Jun 7, 2013, 7:50 PM
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Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker View Post
There are basically none left - at least not for whom Newfoundland French is a first language. We have French families - from St-Pierre, Quebec, France, and elsewhere - but they are contemporary Newfoundlanders and rarely connected to our early French settlement. .
And many of the francophone community leaders are "outsiders" as well. I am thinking of Françoise Enguehard who is originally from SPM and who is a leading Franco-Newfoundland advocate, and also Radio-Canada's correspondent based in St. John's.

If you go to many parts of the country where francophones are small minorities, you will find that many of the community leaders who stand up for French rights are people who are not from the region, as opposed to local francophones whose families have been there for generations. Not sure why that is (people become more passive and even brow-beaten over time?) but it sometimes causes conflict between the new francophones and the old francophones who tend to accuse the uppity new guys of rocking the boat with the local anglo majority.
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  #12  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2013, 9:38 PM
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And many of the francophone community leaders are "outsiders" as well. I am thinking of Françoise Enguehard who is originally from SPM and who is a leading Franco-Newfoundland advocate, and also Radio-Canada's correspondent based in St. John's.

If you go to many parts of the country where francophones are small minorities, you will find that many of the community leaders who stand up for French rights are people who are not from the region, as opposed to local francophones whose families have been there for generations. Not sure why that is (people become more passive and even brow-beaten over time?) but it sometimes causes conflict between the new francophones and the old francophones who tend to accuse the uppity new guys of rocking the boat with the local anglo majority.
Well, if that's rocking the boat, then it should be rocked. On an island with French place names like Baie-de-Mortier, Isle-aux-Morts, Baie d'Espoir, etc... these places got these names for a reason. There's a very painful history there and it shouldn't be allowed to be snuffed out completely at a time when we are far more open to living together.

In St-Pierre-et-Miquelon, they learn about the Exodus, the massacres, etc., totally. They know the dates, the places, the surnames of the families, etc. There's no reason I should have had to go there to encounter, for the first time in my life, that level of detail. It should be known across the island, far more than it is. I think that's why French Islanders are so willing to defend themselves, and the francophonie.

Now, it's not unknown, or denied. But it is... acknowledged at the bare minimum, and usually followed by a unspoken "But...".
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Old Posted Jun 7, 2013, 11:15 PM
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Emile was from L'anse au Canards on the Port au Port Peninsula. The Days Inn in Stephenville has a restaurant named Emile's Pub.

I came across this thread and have to get in on the discussion because I live on the french Newfoundland doorstep. A lot of the english in the Bay St. George/Port au Port area of NL is heavily influenced by french, and as a result, the intonation and rhythm of speech gets all over the place. After a heated class discussion in university I was asked a few times if I was french. My hometown brands itself as "The Acadian Village" and puts the "Bienvenue À" ahead of "Welcome to" on all publications, and uses french on the top of our town crest.

I don't think it's really doom and gloom for Newfoundland French. There are schools that teach entirely in French in places like Cap St. George and La Grand'Terre, at École Notre-Dame-Du-Cap and École Sainte-Anne respectively. In comparrison, there is only one english school serving the area and only ingrades K-8. They have access to several french radio stations and a bureau of "Le Gaboteur" newspaper operates out of the area. Obviously there are challenges, but you can certainly conduct daily business in french in that area, and any job posting that comes up for that region is posted in french. In fact, I worked at Canadian Tire here about 5 years ago and served people en français somewhat regularly. A lot of signage is bilingual and they still hold a french folk festival annually. Much of the ''study'' done by academics who come in and observe very little french usage is a result of a couple of factors:

1) Politeness - often these people came in and did not divulge their true purpose of visiting the community in order to get a more natural evaluation, something that wouldn't really be allowed today. Anyway, in the company of an outsider people will try to make that person feel more welcome, so they would often switch to english so as to not be rude.

2) Even with a thick french accent, the francophones sounded the same as native english speakers in Stephenville. As I said, the french accent is still prevalent, even today.

The biggest issues that were faced by francophone Newfoundlanders came with the USAF opening a base in Stephenville in 1941. That caused a lot of emigration into town from the peninsula and a lot of people anglicised their names and learned english to get work. Benoit » Bennett, Aucoin » O'Quinn, Leblanc » White, and so on. But on the peninsula, the french surnames still exist.

The idea that government prevented french from being taught in schools doesn't carry near as much weight once you look at the historical record. Churches controlled education in the early 20th century, and we had denominational schooling until 1997. Education was conducted in french. When the air force was buying out land in 1940, the people who were losing their homes in Stephenville (francophone community at the time) were being given far less than those in St. John's. They were given the opportunity to write letters to the the proper officials and request a hearing to have the price re-evaluated. All the letters that were sent were exact copies of each other, all written by 1 person, the only person in the community who was fluent in english. The rest were french or illiterate. One would expect that the Port au Port peninsula would be even more heavily francophone due to isolation. This indicates that education in english was severaly limited. After confederation english education became much more normal, but by the late 70s the push for francophone education was picking up again. The 50s and 60s were absolutely the dark ages of les francophones de Terre-Neuve.

And that is my essay, thanks for reading!
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  #14  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2013, 11:22 PM
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Awesome, thanks for the corrections, Trevor!

(BTW all, I lived in that area for two years for college. So far, everything Trevor3 has said about it on SSP I've either known to be true, or had no knowledge of. But he's never been wrong yet. So I definitely trust his insight).
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Old Posted Jun 7, 2013, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker View Post
Awesome, thanks for the corrections, Trevor!

(BTW all, I lived in that area for two years for college. So far, everything Trevor3 has said about it on SSP I've either known to be true, or had no knowledge of. But he's never been wrong yet. So I definitely trust his insight).
Thank-you sir!

I have an almost unhealthy interest in the history of Port au Port and Bay St. George. It's increadibly odd by our provincial standards and so heavily influenced by ethnic groups, such as the Basque, Acadians, Saint-Pierre french, and Mi`kmaq that appear less in other areas, or don't appear at all.

Back on the topic of Émile Benoit, he used to play all over Canada. Back in those days the majority of flighs were with Eastern Provincial Airways into Stephenville. Émile would take his fiddle as a carry on and play for the passengers on their way to Newfoundland, or Terre-Neuve as far as he was concerned. If he did those things today, he would be legendary rather than a fringe cultural icon.
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Old Posted Jun 7, 2013, 11:59 PM
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An aside - one of my best friends from your corner of the island is a "francophone" O'Quinn. Originally from Lourdes, but lives in Kippens, I believe.

The part of the... "Englench"... she speaks that stands out most to me is saying "me" instead of "b'y".

"I'm going to the store tomorrow, me."
"I love you, me."
"I got a car Honda, me."
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Old Posted Jun 8, 2013, 2:54 AM
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An aside - one of my best friends from your corner of the island is a "francophone" O'Quinn. Originally from Lourdes, but lives in Kippens, I believe.

The part of the... "Englench"... she speaks that stands out most to me is saying "me" instead of "b'y".

"I'm going to the store tomorrow, me."
"I love you, me."
"I got a car Honda, me."
Oh my god, yes. Lourdes is one of the places that has almost completely lost french as a mothertongue but has an amazingly thick french accent. You expect to be able to switch to french and carry on conversation, but the average person has little to no knowledge of the language at all. And it can be really tough, like a typical english speaker can have things go right over their head because it's only english in vocabulary. Sentence structure and intonation are still completely french.

Here is a video I found on youtube, Mark Cormier talks about growing up in the french community but being educated in english (60s and 70s based on his age, most likely) and how about 30% of the population still uses french daily, and how many of the young people coming back are working and living in french. He's university educated so his english is much clearer than most but still definitely a french accent.
Video Link
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Old Posted Jun 8, 2013, 3:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Trevor3 View Post
Emile was from L'anse au Canards on the Port au Port Peninsula. The Days Inn in Stephenville has a restaurant named Emile's Pub.

I came across this thread and have to get in on the discussion because I live on the french Newfoundland doorstep. A lot of the english in the Bay St. George/Port au Port area of NL is heavily influenced by french, and as a result, the intonation and rhythm of speech gets all over the place. After a heated class discussion in university I was asked a few times if I was french. My hometown brands itself as "The Acadian Village" and puts the "Bienvenue À" ahead of "Welcome to" on all publications, and uses french on the top of our town crest.

I don't think it's really doom and gloom for Newfoundland French. There are schools that teach entirely in French in places like Cap St. George and La Grand'Terre, at École Notre-Dame-Du-Cap and École Sainte-Anne respectively. In comparrison, there is only one english school serving the area and only ingrades K-8. They have access to several french radio stations and a bureau of "Le Gaboteur" newspaper operates out of the area. Obviously there are challenges, but you can certainly conduct daily business in french in that area, and any job posting that comes up for that region is posted in french. In fact, I worked at Canadian Tire here about 5 years ago and served people en français somewhat regularly. A lot of signage is bilingual and they still hold a french folk festival annually. Much of the ''study'' done by academics who come in and observe very little french usage is a result of a couple of factors:

1) Politeness - often these people came in and did not divulge their true purpose of visiting the community in order to get a more natural evaluation, something that wouldn't really be allowed today. Anyway, in the company of an outsider people will try to make that person feel more welcome, so they would often switch to english so as to not be rude.

2) Even with a thick french accent, the francophones sounded the same as native english speakers in Stephenville. As I said, the french accent is still prevalent, even today.

The biggest issues that were faced by francophone Newfoundlanders came with the USAF opening a base in Stephenville in 1941. That caused a lot of emigration into town from the peninsula and a lot of people anglicised their names and learned english to get work. Benoit » Bennett, Aucoin » O'Quinn, Leblanc » White, and so on. But on the peninsula, the french surnames still exist.

The idea that government prevented french from being taught in schools doesn't carry near as much weight once you look at the historical record. Churches controlled education in the early 20th century, and we had denominational schooling until 1997. Education was conducted in french. When the air force was buying out land in 1940, the people who were losing their homes in Stephenville (francophone community at the time) were being given far less than those in St. John's. They were given the opportunity to write letters to the the proper officials and request a hearing to have the price re-evaluated. All the letters that were sent were exact copies of each other, all written by 1 person, the only person in the community who was fluent in english. The rest were french or illiterate. One would expect that the Port au Port peninsula would be even more heavily francophone due to isolation. This indicates that education in english was severaly limited. After confederation english education became much more normal, but by the late 70s the push for francophone education was picking up again. The 50s and 60s were absolutely the dark ages of les francophones de Terre-Neuve.

And that is my essay, thanks for reading!
Thanks a lot for these fascinating insights. In some cases with all due respect I do think you are being overly optimistic and even jovialistic.

For example there is a grand total of about 1000 people in NL who speak French at home. About 350 of them live in Labrador City and about the same live in St John's. The rest live on the west coast of the island. In all of NL there are 350-400 kids who go to school in French.

As for the unilingual francophones in the 1940s, these were probably people who did not go to school at all, and spoke French by oral tradition.

From what I have read there were French schools in west Nfld at some point in the 1800s set up by the Catholic church. Fairly quickly those schools that did exist in the area were switched over to English and all schools remained English until the 1970s or 80s.

As for the researchers who study Franco-Newfoundlanders not meeting many francophones because they speak English to them to be polite, well... wouldn't people who study French in Newfoundland speak French themselves? So no need to be polite to them by speaking to them in English...
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Old Posted Jun 8, 2013, 4:00 AM
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Well, if that's rocking the boat, then it should be rocked. On an island with French place names like Baie-de-Mortier, Isle-aux-Morts, Baie d'Espoir, etc... these places got these names for a reason. There's a very painful history there and it shouldn't be allowed to be snuffed out completely at a time when we are far more open to living together.

In St-Pierre-et-Miquelon, they learn about the Exodus, the massacres, etc., totally. They know the dates, the places, the surnames of the families, etc. There's no reason I should have had to go there to encounter, for the first time in my life, that level of detail. It should be known across the island, far more than it is. I think that's why French Islanders are so willing to defend themselves, and the francophonie.

Now, it's not unknown, or denied. But it is... acknowledged at the bare minimum, and usually followed by a unspoken "But...".

It's a fairly common human trait to gloss over and even ignore the nastier bit of a nation's collective history.
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Old Posted Jun 8, 2013, 5:07 PM
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Thanks a lot for these fascinating insights. In some cases with all due respect I do think you are being overly optimistic and even jovialistic.

For example there is a grand total of about 1000 people in NL who speak French at home. About 350 of them live in Labrador City and about the same live in St John's. The rest live on the west coast of the island. In all of NL there are 350-400 kids who go to school in French.

As for the unilingual francophones in the 1940s, these were probably people who did not go to school at all, and spoke French by oral tradition.

From what I have read there were French schools in west Nfld at some point in the 1800s set up by the Catholic church. Fairly quickly those schools that did exist in the area were switched over to English and all schools remained English until the 1970s or 80s.

As for the researchers who study Franco-Newfoundlanders not meeting many francophones because they speak English to them to be polite, well... wouldn't people who study French in Newfoundland speak French themselves? So no need to be polite to them by speaking to them in English...
I realized after posting that I did come off as almost sensationalist. French culture is alive but there are definitely challenges. Education is a tricky aspect to track because in a lot of cases the record keeping was suspect at best, so the best we have are separate pieces of evidence like land titles and occasional bits of mail to go by, as well as oral tradtion.

As for the portion which I bolded, not necessarily. The people who did most of these studies were out of the folklore department at Memorial University. There have been compilations of french phrases put together, sort of taking inventory of the dialect, that would probably require speaking in french to complete. But overall, going out to see how much it is spoken really does not. Just for comparison, as an english speaker you could go into rural Ireland and do work on Irish Gaelic usage and not know the meaning of "sra" or any other gaelic words.
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