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  #161  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2019, 2:26 AM
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Yeah, let this be the first and let the next office tower get the height council wants.
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  #162  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2019, 4:23 AM
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Originally Posted by phesto View Post
This is hilarious. So City Council is going to try to force them to build a larger building? How exactly?

The height is one thing, but the building would be the equivalent of one of the largest in Downtown Vancouver by square footage. It's more than large enough for the current office market in Surrey and mayor and council should be jumping for joy that they have a developer willing to take on this risk. Instead, they're going to try to delay the process to get them to build more space?
Well, that's why Vancouver's downtown is fast becoming the backwater of the region. I'm sure the developer will compromise with the City eventually. But I like Surrey's vision for its City centre.

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Originally Posted by Cypherus View Post
I can see from an urban planning point of view that it is best to maximize density on the lot. But this is unusual for MetroVancouver. Not sure if the developer is going to commence with the proposal if they cannot obtain the financing to build a taller building. Design as it stands is great, so if the developer wants they can add the extra 15-20 floors on top of the upper setback in order to minimize costs, all while achieving the height expectations. Something like this (excuse the bad mockup)

Oh my, this will look terrific at that location.
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  #163  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2019, 4:48 AM
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It's a backwater with 110 000 people living in 2.2 square miles, and still growing faster than any other municipal "downtown' in the region.
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  #164  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2019, 5:03 AM
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Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
It's a backwater with 110 000 people living in 2.2 square miles, and still growing faster than any other municipal "downtown' in the region.
In terms of office space, currently adding over five times more space than all the other municipal Downtowns added together.
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  #165  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2019, 5:31 AM
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Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
It's a backwater with 110 000 people living in 2.2 square miles, and still growing faster than any other municipal "downtown' in the region.
Numbers? Even if true, that's only because there is hardly any growth outside Vancouver's downtown. Same thing cannot be said about Surrey, and its population growth within and outside Surrey Central will definitely boost its downtown development. Fact is that Surrey is building a bold city centre and should be really exciting in the next few years to see.

https://jaksview3.files.wordpress.co...popgrowth1.jpg

The city needs an iconic office tower as a major landmark on King George Highway, and a tall and larger City Central Tower 2 is totally appropriate.

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Originally Posted by Changing City View Post
In terms of office space, currently adding over five times more space than all the other municipal Downtowns added together.
There used to be no alternatives other than downtown Van, but now and in the near future, there will be lots more elsewhere, and quality ones too. Vancouver's own laggard attitude makes this possible.

Last edited by Vin; Oct 20, 2019 at 6:06 AM.
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  #166  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2019, 7:40 AM
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Grumpy night.
People (Vin & others) should be satisfied giving their thoughts and opinions, but stop short of claiming to know shit they obviously don't have a proper understanding of. An expert opinion is easy to spot . . . as are non-expert opinions.
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  #167  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2019, 7:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Marshal View Post
Grumpy night.
People (Vin & others) should be satisfied giving their thoughts and opinions, but stop short of claiming to know shit they obviously don't have a proper understanding of. An expert opinion is easy to spot . . . as are non-expert opinions.
Why don't you share your "understanding", sir, instead of just blabbering stuff that doesn't contribute to anything?
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  #168  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2019, 9:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Vin View Post
Why don't you share your "understanding", sir, instead of just blabbering stuff that doesn't contribute to anything?
Surrey central hasn't reached critical mass yet to justify a much taller office tower honestly. Council should also consider context. That entire block is getting a huge boost in business draw and it isn't like this tower is the ONLY office tower being built.

There is another office tower being built across from Surrey Memorial with the Innovation Boulevard looking to expand by 5 additional towers all the way up to Fraser Highway, all Office.

You then have to include The Hub which is building an 10(12? I forget), office tower across from Coast Capital. This is a LOT of office space to fill up. Heck Coast Capital still has available space for lease and they only had to deal with 4 floors, not 25...

3 Civic which was built right in the heart of Surrey Central could only justify 4 floors for office. It is a tall tower, tallest in Surrey Central, and 95% of that is residential. Why? Because they couldn't justify it. Regular people are stupid enough to pay a huge premium for "a view" they rarely look at. Businesses are not.

So the demand is simply not there and I trust the developer far more with respect to understanding the market conditions and what makes sense right now. Afterall, they are the ones ponying up the money to build this tower and taking the risk. Surrey council is not.

I am 100% in agreement with those that say the city really isn't in a position to be super demandy right now. Would I love that corner to have a 750 foot mega tower? Sure why not. But it doesn't make sense and there is _A LOT!!!_ of empty space through the rest of Surrey Central that will still be filling up 50 years from now.

Downtown Vancouver is well over 100 years old and is still building towers, and tall ones today. It's not like if this tower gets built, we're dooming tall towers in the future. And let's be honest, how many of Downtown Vancouver's mega tall towers are right on a major block corner? And what does that even mean when Surrey Central has an expanded road network? Shangri La is on the corner of Georgia and Thurlow... not extremely major. Wall Center, Hornby and Nelson. List goes on if you look at where they are located. Surrey can have a super tall anywhere and that corner and block will become a new focal point. It's not a mad rush.

The only reason Council thinks this is a major corner is because Surrey Central has frankly a shitty road network that is grossly inefficient and barely meets the traffic needs of today overemphasizing a few "corners" throughout the area.
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  #169  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2019, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by jhausner View Post
Surrey central hasn't reached critical mass yet to justify a much taller office tower honestly. Council should also consider context. That entire block is getting a huge boost in business draw and it isn't like this tower is the ONLY office tower being built.

There is another office tower being built across from Surrey Memorial with the Innovation Boulevard looking to expand by 5 additional towers all the way up to Fraser Highway, all Office.

You then have to include The Hub which is building an 10(12? I forget), office tower across from Coast Capital. This is a LOT of office space to fill up. Heck Coast Capital still has available space for lease and they only had to deal with 4 floors, not 25...

3 Civic which was built right in the heart of Surrey Central could only justify 4 floors for office. It is a tall tower, tallest in Surrey Central, and 95% of that is residential. Why? Because they couldn't justify it. Regular people are stupid enough to pay a huge premium for "a view" they rarely look at. Businesses are not.

So the demand is simply not there and I trust the developer far more with respect to understanding the market conditions and what makes sense right now. Afterall, they are the ones ponying up the money to build this tower and taking the risk. Surrey council is not.

I am 100% in agreement with those that say the city really isn't in a position to be super demandy right now. Would I love that corner to have a 750 foot mega tower? Sure why not. But it doesn't make sense and there is _A LOT!!!_ of empty space through the rest of Surrey Central that will still be filling up 50 years from now.

Downtown Vancouver is well over 100 years old and is still building towers, and tall ones today. It's not like if this tower gets built, we're dooming tall towers in the future. And let's be honest, how many of Downtown Vancouver's mega tall towers are right on a major block corner? And what does that even mean when Surrey Central has an expanded road network? Shangri La is on the corner of Georgia and Thurlow... not extremely major. Wall Center, Hornby and Nelson. List goes on if you look at where they are located. Surrey can have a super tall anywhere and that corner and block will become a new focal point. It's not a mad rush.

The only reason Council thinks this is a major corner is because Surrey Central has frankly a shitty road network that is grossly inefficient and barely meets the traffic needs of today overemphasizing a few "corners" throughout the area.
Build it and they will come.
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  #170  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2019, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Vin View Post
Build it and they will come.
Plus it will be like 3-5 years by the time this building is built and gets its occupancy permit plus fit-outs and all so the market for office space may well be totally different by then. Also, theoretically the sky train will have extended to Fleetwood by the time this building is done so maybe more offices will set up shop in this building as a result. Brexit and Hongkong instability may mean more need for space in the future as well.
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  #171  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2019, 5:18 PM
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Great to see City of Surrey having the courage to tackle an issue that most councils in the area run away from. Definitely a welcome change to Vancouver's attitude of too tall/too bright/too loud/too soon/ etc etc that stifles the full potential of the city.

Municipalities that have Skytrain in them need to maximize the usage of areas immediately adjacent or even reasonably close to stations. Vancouver has failed miserably with this. Good to see Surrey showing that there is hope in the region yet.

First a local police force, now this? Was never a fan of McCallum, but I'm beginning to think I may have misjudged him
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  #172  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2019, 6:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Changing City View Post
In terms of office space, currently adding over five times more space than all the other municipal Downtowns added together.
And that number is only going to get more stark. Downtown Vancouver is set to pull further away from other municipal town centres as more major projects, some yet to be announced, break ground.

While suburban cores have done a good job promoting high-rise buildings, they have been low in density and lacking meaningful commercial components, leading them to be more of a bedroom community to downtown's role as employment centre of the region.
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  #173  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2019, 6:48 PM
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Originally Posted by LeftCoaster View Post
And that number is only going to get more stark. Downtown Vancouver is set to pull further away from other municipal town centres as more major projects, some yet to be announced, break ground.

While suburban cores have done a good job promoting high-rise buildings, they have been low in density and lacking meaningful commercial components, leading them to be more of a bedroom community to downtown's role as employment centre of the region.
What's your take on this proposal, and Surrey Council's rejection? At 567,000 sq ft it already seemed pretty ambitious, and 25 floors presumably created a reasonably space efficient project. Adding more floors to the existing design would add more cost and they would be building even more space, into an uncertain market. (I'm referring to demand for relatively expensive space in Surrey, not in Metro Vancouver overall). Reconfiguring the building to just add height would make it less efficient overall, so they would need even higher rents to get a reasonable return. The cost to build their project must have been close to a quarter of a billion dollars, so it seems like a high risk investment project already, unless they have potential tenants lined up.
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  #174  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2019, 6:58 PM
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If the owner were pressured to increase it but still submitted at this size then they definitely don't feel as though the market is there for a bigger building. Developers take space that is offered to them if there is a viable market 99% of the time.

I think this will get negotiated with the City, and unless Surrey is prepared to offer incentives to go higher it will either get pulled or go through as is.

Forcing a developer to build bigger doesn't work, there's just too much risk of a major loss.
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  #175  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2019, 7:29 PM
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Originally Posted by LeftCoaster View Post
If the owner were pressured to increase it but still submitted at this size then they definitely don't feel as though the market is there for a bigger building. Developers take space that is offered to them if there is a viable market 99% of the time.

I think this will get negotiated with the City, and unless Surrey is prepared to offer incentives to go higher it will either get pulled or go through as is.

Forcing a developer to build bigger doesn't work, there's just too much risk of a major loss.
Thanks. It's always good to have the perspective of someone who understands how the market works in reality. The only incentive I could think of working would be for the City to guarantee to take whatever additional space might be needed to add height. As they recently built the City Hall nearby with more than enough space for some time, that seems unlikely.

It'll be interesting to see if the project moves forward at all, and if so, how it changes.
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  #176  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2019, 5:55 PM
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This one is returning to Council on Monday for re-consideration.

https://www.surrey.ca/bylawsandcounc...0428-00(1).pdf

As suspected, it's returning under the same proposal (25-storey height), just with better contextual information to educate the Mayor and Council on office vs residential floor heights, the sheer volume of office space this will add to the City Centre, and the fact that this is just Phase 1 of a planned master redevelopment of the mall site.

Central City 2 will in fact be slightly taller than the 35-storey Infinity across the street. Not shorter as stated as a reason for referring back to staff by council.

Also the building will add 567,114sq.ft. of class AAA commercial office space to the City Centre, when currently there is a total of 1.2 million in the entire City Centre in 2019. That's adding half the current amount in a single building.

Some additional renderings and early conceptual planning models for the rest of the mall site were provided in the report. The footprint of the CC2 tower is massive.





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  #177  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2019, 10:08 PM
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That's hilarious that city council doesn't understand building heights versus floor count lol
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  #178  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2019, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Shift View Post
This one is returning to Council on Monday for re-consideration.

https://www.surrey.ca/bylawsandcounc...0428-00(1).pdf

As suspected, it's returning under the same proposal (25-storey height), just with better contextual information to educate the Mayor and Council on office vs residential floor heights, the sheer volume of office space this will add to the City Centre, and the fact that this is just Phase 1 of a planned master redevelopment of the mall site.

Central City 2 will in fact be slightly taller than the 35-storey Infinity across the street. Not shorter as stated as a reason for referring back to staff by council.

Also the building will add 567,114sq.ft. of class AAA commercial office space to the City Centre, when currently there is a total of 1.2 million in the entire City Centre in 2019. That's adding half the current amount in a single building.

Some additional renderings and early conceptual planning models for the rest of the mall site were provided in the report. The footprint of the CC2 tower is massive.





I really hope that the master planned mall looks nothing like what has been presented. Those mid rise buildings just don't flow well and make the centre of city centre very underwhelming
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  #179  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2019, 6:11 AM
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Slimming the office tower a little bit more and making it go up to 30 stories will actually enhance the looks of the skyline in the vicinity. Even though it is higher than the surrounding condo buildings, the difference in height is only negligible. The elevation view looks like a table-topping skyline. Perhaps this was what the City Council was driving at in the first place?
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  #180  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2019, 6:51 AM
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I can't help but think that the site could hold two towers that may be in the shape of a guitar pick as a floor plate for each tower and with a substantial podium. One tower could then be hotel and residential while the other is pure office space. The heights could be different between the two as well. I agree with you Vin a slimmer tower with more height is probably what council is hinting at.
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