Italian neighborhoods in North America

[Docere]

Italian American neighborhoods of NYC today:

https://usworldherald.com/italian-an...new-york-city/

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Docere

Italian American neighborhoods of NYC today:

https://usworldherald.com/italian-an...new-york-city/

How far removed (generations-wise) are most of these neighbourhoods from Italian immigration? 3-4? I presume that in these places with 40-50%, even native-born Italian Americans have been marrying and having families with other Italian Americans for generations?

I wouldn't be surprised if Staten Island has many native-born people who are of solely Italian descent, just like there still exist Irish-American neighborhoods in areas in Boston that have people mark down that they're "solely" of Irish heritage for generations despite being far from the immigrant experience.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

How far removed (generations-wise) are most of these neighbourhoods from Italian immigration? 3-4? I presume that in these places with 40-50%, even native-born Italian Americans have been marrying and having families with other Italian Americans for generations?

I wouldn't be surprised if Staten Island has many native-born people who are of solely Italian descent, just like there still exist Irish-American neighborhoods in areas in Boston that have people mark down that they're "solely" of Irish heritage for generations despite being far from the immigrant experience.

If you want actual Italians, South Brooklyn is a better location. Staten Island is much more Italian, but somewhat more assimilated second-third generation. It's the kids/grandkids of nonnas still in Brooklyn.

The SI Italians aren't the super-assimilated Italians you see out in the burbs, though. They're from the last immigrant cohort, in the 60's-70's. They can still speak a little Italian and have some links to the old country. The Italians out in Parsippany and in Florida are totally assimilated.

[montréaliste]

Originally Posted by Crawford

If you want actual Italians, South Brooklyn is a better location. Staten Island is much more Italian, but somewhat more assimilated second-third generation. It's the kids/grandkids of nonnas still in Brooklyn.

The SI Italians aren't the super-assimilated Italians you see out in the burbs, though. They're from the last immigrant cohort, in the 60's-70's. They can still speak a little Italian and have some links to the old country. The Italians out in Parsippany and in Florida are totally assimilated.

Does that mean the Parsipanny style pizza will have bits of pastrami instead of the pepperoni?

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Crawford

If you want actual Italians, South Brooklyn is a better location. Staten Island is much more Italian, but somewhat more assimilated second-third generation. It's the kids/grandkids of nonnas still in Brooklyn.

The SI Italians aren't the super-assimilated Italians you see out in the burbs, though. They're from the last immigrant cohort, in the 60's-70's. They can still speak a little Italian and have some links to the old country.

What about Howard Beach and Whitestone?

[Crawford]

An interesting NYT article on the resiliency of the Italian community in Williamsburg. Surprisingly the community appears to be relatively stable despite gentrification:

A 72-Foot Spire and a 116-Year-Old Tradition in Need of a Few Brooklyn Hipsters

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/11/n...liamsburg.html

[Docere]

Interesting to see the holdout in Williamsburg. In the postwar years there was a shift among Brooklyn Italians from inner Brooklyn to the southern rim (and of course migration to the suburbs).

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Docere

Interesting to see the holdout in Williamsburg. In the postwar years there was a shift among Brooklyn Italians from inner Brooklyn to the southern rim (and of course migration to the suburbs).

For whatever reason the Williamsburg enclave has held stronger than South Brooklyn. Much more overtly Italian than Bensonhurst these days.

Maybe the most overtly Italian truly urban enclave in North America, yet relatively unknown. Morris Park and Dyker Heights have more Italians, but are mostly residential and urban-lite.

[Docere]

According to Joseph Sciorra, Williamsburg and Bushwick attracted Italian immigrants in the 1950s but they quickly learned their place as "white ethnics" and joined the white flight to the southern rim.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=17H...0faith&f=false

[Maldive]

Not following the flow of chat but:

Years ago Toronto was the 4th largest "Italian" city in the world (Rome, Milan, Napoli, Toronto). Not sure now.

Most of my friends were 2nd generation Italian and I cook some very nice/obscure cuisine (easiest is sage pasta-who knew).

Italians built most of Toronto (and many other NA cities) from the 60's onward (builders to bricklayers and pavers).

Most moved to the burbs but great food and "football" on TV still around on St.Clair and other neighbourhoods.

No idea what this post means but Viva Italia.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Maldive

Years ago Toronto was the 4th largest "Italian" city in the world (Rome, Milan, Napoli, Toronto). Not sure now

Toronto is the fourth largest Italian city outside of Italy - after São Paulo, Buenos Aires, and New York. There are at least a dozen cities actually in Italy with populations greater than the half a million or so Italians of the GTA.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Toronto is the fourth largest Italian city outside of Italy - after São Paulo, Buenos Aires, and New York. There are at least a dozen cities actually in Italy with populations greater than the half a million or so Italians of the GTA.

There’s about 860,000 Italian-Americans in metro Boston... well over a million in the CSA (which includes Providence). I’d presume metro Philly has similar numbers.

[dc_denizen]

^ exactly. My guess is Toronto’s claim is based on city limits and not urban area or msa

This says 900000 Italians in metro philly:

https://www.keystoneedge.com/2014/12...egacy-endures/

And here’s a full list by msa:

https://www.osia.org/wp-content/uplo...IA_Profile.pdf

Page 14

Toronto would be the 6th largest after nyc, philly, Boston, Chicago and Los Angeles

[Docere]

Toronto has more Italian-born than Boston/Philly/Chicago though.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by Docere

Toronto has more Italian-born than Boston/Philly/Chicago though.

Ok, that makes more sense.

[dc_denizen]

however the incorrect claim that Toronto is the 4th largest Italian city outside of Italy is prominently featured and advertised, for example if you google ‘largest Italian populations in north america’.

In the USA, Italians are 6% of the population, in Canada around 4%

New Jersey and Connecticut are 18% and 19% Italian, respectively while Pennsylvania is 12%

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

New Jersey and Connecticut are 18% and 19% Italian, respectively while Pennsylvania is 12%

Rhode Island is also 19%, and Mass is 14%. New York is 13.5%, New Hampshire is 10%, and no other state is in double digits.

I always forget how Italian the Northeast is compared to the rest of the country. And I grieve for all of you for whom Olive Garden is ever an acceptable choice. Even when it’s basically your only Italian choice in many places.

[Don't Be That Guy]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Re: People thinking that Cajun French is not "real French" because French is defined only by people in France, gets at what we were discussing a few posts up on diasporic versions of things vs. homeland and the homeland not getting to define what the diaspora should and should not practice culturally/linguistically/politically etc.

Cajun French isn't French from France, but that doesn't make them any less French.

On a related note, it's cool to see that young person speak Cajun French since it's a sign that the language is being kept alive/revitalized when it's more than just older people speaking it.

Replying to an old comment, but Louisiana royally goofed by trying to stamp out Cajun language and culture in the early and mid 20th century. Arcadiana could be a much wealthier area if the state had leveraged the cultural and business advantages of having a unique culture and French-speaking workforce. There is tourism in the region, but it seems to mostly be Europeans taking side-trips from NO, and the economy there...well, it's southern Louisiana.

Anyway, it's heartening to see a resurging interest in their culture from young people and I hope it catches on. If for no other reason than to keep the food culture alive.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Don't Be That Guy

Replying to an old comment, but Louisiana royally goofed by trying to stamp out Cajun language and culture in the early and mid 20th century. Arcadiana could be a much wealthier area if the state had leveraged the cultural and business advantages of having a unique culture and French-speaking workforce. There is tourism in the region, but it seems to mostly be Europeans taking side-trips from NO, and the economy there...well, it's southern Louisiana.

Anyway, it's heartening to see a resurging interest in their culture from young people and I hope it catches on. If for no other reason than to keep the food culture alive.

one of my favorite long planned trips, when i retire or something, is to fly to houston and take a slow drive to new orleans, with lots of stopping over and side trips along the way in cajun country for food and music.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Shawn

I always forget how Italian the Northeast is compared to the rest of the country. And I grieve for all of you for whom Olive Garden is ever an acceptable choice. Even when it’s basically your only Italian choice in many places.

just because the northeast is much more italian than the rest country, it doesn't mean that the rest of us are going to OG for our italian fix. not by a LONG shot.

i mean, chicago may not be as italian as NYC or boston or wherever out east, but according to dc_denizen's link, there's still ~650,000 italian americans in chicagoland (not exactly chump change).

in fact, i married an italian american from milwaukee and have eaten fantastic italian food up there in brew city. and their italian american community is only ~75,000 people.

you'd have to go to a pretty small fucking town for OG to be the only italian option.