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  #401  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 9:31 PM
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Also, without wading into the specific issue of Ontario's sex ed curriculum, I also think that parents do have the legitimate right to question when the appropriate age is to discuss sexual matters and how they are addressed and in how much detail. Without being called all sorts of nasty names.

This was not an issue for my wife and I BTW as our kids were having meals with a married gay couple before starting school and one of their male teachers early on talked about getting married to his boyfriend in front of the class.
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  #402  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 9:57 PM
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Or on a broader issue of having to use the right pronoun with people whose gender might be ambiguous, and being treated like a homophobic asshole (or worse, facing a formal complaint) when all you did was make an honest mistake.
How oven has this happened to you? As a queer person (i dentify by he, him, his, they, them, theirs), I've also made the mistake of accidently calling someone the wrong pronoun... I was corrected, I appologized, I made an effort to remember their pronoun, and didn't make the mistake again as I got used to it. It really didn't take a lot of effort and I certainly wasn't chasticed for it... we all make mistakes and that's fine, but thinking that because you have to put in the effort to do something is a burden you carry also speaks to ones privelege and the fact thats trans people have to put in that effort all the time to justify their existence.

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None of this is really related to the basic equal rights that gay people have deservedly won, or even I'd argue to the basic rights of the vast majority of trans people either.
Disagree completely... all of this is related to a culture that is still homophobic, transphobic, racist, and sexist at large (yes, less so then it was but there is still a heck of a lot of work to do) They are all linked. Also, just because things are better in Canada in this regard doesn't mean that the fight should stop as again, there is a lot of work to still do.
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  #403  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Also, without wading into the specific issue of Ontario's sex ed curriculum, I also think that parents do have the legitimate right to question when the appropriate age is to discuss sexual matters and how they are addressed and in how much detail. Without being called all sorts of nasty names.

This was not an issue for my wife and I BTW as our kids were having meals with a married gay couple before starting school and one of their male teachers early on talked about getting married to his boyfriend in front of the class.
Parents can question whatever the heck they want, that doesn't justify hiding the fact that queer, trans, or non-binary people exist and that society as a whole should be talking about that. If people want to plug their ears and pretend otherwise then that's their choice, it shouldn't be the default. I had to be forcefed heterosexuality at every juncture of my upbringing.. how is that fair to kids that may be queer or non-binary?
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  #404  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by jolene123 View Post
Parents can question whatever the heck they want, that doesn't justify hiding the fact that queer, trans, or non-binary people exist and that society as a whole should be talking about that. If people want to plug their ears and pretend otherwise then that's their choice, it shouldn't be the default. I had to be forcefed heterosexuality at every juncture of my upcoming.. how is that fair to kids that may be queer or non-binary?
I think you're reading something into my post that wasn't actually there.

I wasn't talking about force-feeding explicit or detailed heterosexuality to very young kids either.
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  #405  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 10:12 PM
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I think you're reading something into my post that wasn't actually there.

I wasn't talking about force-feeding explicit or detailed heterosexuality to very young kids either.
I didn't say anything about explicit or detailed heterosexuality, I said heterosexuality. Something as simple as staright people kissing or holding hands... I was never exposed to any same-sex themes growing up (I am happy to hear that your kids were though^^)
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  #406  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 10:16 PM
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How oven has this happened to you? As a queer person (i dentify by he, him, his, they, them, theirs), I've also made the mistake of accidently calling someone the wrong pronoun... I was corrected, I appologized, I made an effort to remember their pronoun, and didn't make the mistake again as I got used to it. It really didn't take a lot of effort and I certainly wasn't chasticed for it... we all make mistakes and that's fine, but thinking that because you have to put in the effort to do something is a burden you carry also speaks to ones privelege and the fact thats trans people have to put in that effort all the time to justify their existence.
.
Exactly... zero times. But the issue has only come to the fore in the past 6 months or so. Maybe a year. Give it time. We've had Bill C-16 and directives to federal public servants to stop using Sir Madame Monsieur Madame when dealing with the public... As I said. Give it time.

I think a good example of what's to come is evidenced by what happened with the various appellations for indigenous. On this front, I, my wife and basically everyone I know (everyone seemingly well-intentioned) has been chewed out at some point for not using the right term. Which of course is a bit hard to follow as in my close to five decades on this planet the name we're supposed to use has gone through Indian, Native, First Nations, Aboriginal, Indigenous, etc. Not to mention the French versions like Indien, Amérindien, Autochtone, etc. It's also a bit rich to start calling people racist for using the term you yourself were using for your people just a few years ago. BTW I personally know some Indigenous Canadians who still use the term "Indian" to describe their people, and it's not in a sarcastic or self-deprecating way. It's just a word they use out of habit.

So I suspect gender pronouns and such will go the same route, and will perhaps be even more complex and intense given the nature of sexual identity that is a bit more fluid and ambiguous than a person's belonging to an Indigenous group.

None of this means that I am not respectful of the way people want to be referred to. My intent is to comply. But it's not my job and everyone else's to keep up to date with the semantic evolution of all of this. So don't rag on me if I am acting respectfully but still get it wrong.
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  #407  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 10:25 PM
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Someday, I hope to understand the preferred pronoun thing in practice. I can see how one could use a preferred pronoun, but I can also see how it can be easily avoided, without giving offence or violating the norms of English grammar, if one objects to the practice. Only if there is a lack of goodwill could I see it giving rise to any problem greater than "oops, sorry".
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  #408  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 10:32 PM
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I didn't say anything about explicit or detailed heterosexuality, I said heterosexuality. Something as simple as staright people kissing or holding hands... I was never exposed to any same-sex themes growing up (I am happy to hear that your kids were though^^)
I suppose you do realize, that no measure of goodwill or effort will ever fully change the fact that regardless of future progress we'll still be living in a hetero-normative society to some degree, given that about 90% of humans are heterosexual and that heterosexual relationships are the foundation of society.

Being LGBT will always be an outlier position to be in in society, at least to some degree. (I also suppose it's not news to you that some LGBT people actually like this outlier role. And of course, some don't.)

Obviously this does not mean that discrimination or disrepect is acceptable, but you always will see way more male-female couples kissing in ads, movies - basically anything that depicts "the norm".
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  #409  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 11:29 PM
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I just found this little nugget, for all the Tories who were outraged about the McClintic/Healing Lodge brouhaha:

..The Tories almost had a big win against the Liberals when the government changed rules and sent child-killer Terri-Lynne McClintic back to prison from a healing lodge. But then came the news Nov. 13 that during the Conservatives’ own time in office, 10 people convicted of killing children had been in such lodges for at least some of their sentences....

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/poli...ries-as-house/
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  #410  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 11:35 PM
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I just found this little nugget, for all the Tories who were outraged about the McClintic/Healing Lodge brouhaha:

..The Tories almost had a big win against the Liberals when the government changed rules and sent child-killer Terri-Lynne McClintic back to prison from a healing lodge. But then came the news Nov. 13 that during the Conservatives’ own time in office, 10 people convicted of killing children had been in such lodges for at least some of their sentences....

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/poli...ries-as-house/
Wouldn't it be nice if the important part of the story was that the process has now been tightened up, and the notification process improved?
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  #411  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 11:36 PM
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There are no "big wins" in the Victoria Stafford murder case.

BTW it is equally unacceptable regardless of party in power.

But why did the Libs not dig it up?
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  #412  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by jolene123 View Post
If people want to plug their ears and pretend otherwise then that's their choice, it shouldn't be the default.
Disagree, it's pretty obvious that just because something exists out there, doesn't mean we should dump that burden on young kids without caution. It may well be TMI at a certain age.

It's normal for developing kids to learn about the world progressively, in stages.
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  #413  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 11:45 PM
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What progressives on the other hand very firmly believe is this: that homosexuality is not a bad thing in any way shape or form. It is a completely valid, healthy, and normal variant of the human condition and a gay lifestyle is no less valid or desirable than a straight one. I would argue that anyone who rejects that statement is a homophobe and a bigot.
Completely agree, however - considering that homosexuality is perfectly normal, it follows that we should expect homosexuals to make up their demographic share of pretty much everything, right?

That's where I totally draw the line and stop following. I find it completely objectionable to encourage the promotion of people based on an irrelevant-to-competency characteristic.

If for example your City Council happens to be more straight than the population in general, so be it, but that, by itself, is no reason to vote for someone who's gay. The correct way to treat that person is to vote for them if you like what they're proposing, and not vote for them if you don't. Just like if they were a normal person (imagine that)...

Inversely, if gay/straight quotas were imposed on SSP, many of you guys would have to be banned, because this forum is definitely not representative of the general population.

In a nutshell - I'm 100.00% behind fair and equal treatment, but I oppose discrimination, both positive and negative.
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  #414  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 11:47 PM
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Same here. I know people of aboriginal ancestry who "have Indian status" (their words).
Their words and term of art in the context of the Indian Act (I think technically it's "registered Indian"). That doesn't make it appropriate in all contexts. Although some people do still refer to themselves as Indians and so I assume are not offended by it's use by non-First Nations people.
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  #415  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 11:48 PM
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Who cares about the phrasing , I'm typing on a phone while stuck in traffic, the message/question is to the point but simple, dont overthink it.
I appreciate directness. But I'm sure that you can appreciate how asking people about some topics (like rape, death, money, etc) *might* require a bit more tact. I'm certain this wasn't at all your intention, but it comes off as callous and ham-fisted at best.
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  #416  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
There are no "big wins" in the Victoria Stafford murder case.

BTW it is equally unacceptable regardless of party in power.

But why did the Libs not dig it up?
Maybe because they respect the concept of Healing Lodges and don't feel the need to use it as a tactic to score cheap political points?
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  #417  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 11:54 PM
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Some rather tactless banter has been removed. If you want to talk sex-ed curriculums but if you want to make it clear that you need to go through a program of sex-ed, then this isn't the place.
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  #418  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2018, 12:02 AM
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Disagree, it's pretty obvious that just because something exists out there, doesn't mean we should dump that burden on young kids without caution. It may well be TMI at a certain age.

It's normal for developing kids to learn about the world progressively, in stages.
My reaction as a kid to stuff that I wasn't "ready" for wasn't trauma or disgust - it was just bored disinterest. Unlike, say, violence or gore which can scare kids, if you're not yet at the age where you need to know about sex, it's just kinda meaningless information. Explaining safe sex to 10-year-olds is like explaining a 401k to them: it's boring and unclear why you'd ever need this information.

That said, like explaining how to save for retirement, some of that info can stay with you until it might be handy. I learned how to put a condom on a banana long before I had any appreciation for its actual applicability, but that knowledge came in really useful as soon as I did.

Basically, I don't think that TMI might affect certain parents, but the kids won't care if they're not ready. There's no harm in learning about it a bit too early. But there's definitely a danger in having teens learn about these things too late .
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  #419  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2018, 12:15 AM
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My reaction as a kid to stuff that I wasn't "ready" for wasn't trauma or disgust - it was just bored disinterest. Unlike, say, violence or gore which can scare kids, if you're not yet at the age where you need to know about sex, it's just kinda meaningless information. Explaining safe sex to 10-year-olds is like explaining a 401k to them: it's boring and unclear why you'd ever need this information.

That said, like explaining how to save for retirement, some of that info can stay with you until it might be handy. I learned how to put a condom on a banana long before I had any appreciation for its actual applicability, but that knowledge came in really useful as soon as I did.

Basically, I don't think that TMI might affect certain parents, but the kids won't care if they're not ready. There's no harm in learning about it a bit too early. But there's definitely a danger in having teens learn about these things too late .
I actually completely agree with you there. I was just shooting down the general argument "well, that's reality, therefore we should be telling extremely young kids about it, instead of debating whether or not we should". We all agree it's reality; what is up for debate is at what age exactly kids should learn about it.

I will point out though that dispensing information kids aren't ready for would be a total waste of school time that could instead be invested more productively. Surely you agree that having elementary school kids learn in deep detail how retirement plans work (great example, BTW) would be pretty bad, from an educational planning point of view.
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  #420  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2018, 12:28 AM
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I didn't realize I was gay until I was 11 or 12, but didn't know what homosexuality was until I was 12 or 13, so I thought I was turning into a girl and it traumatized me and I became depressed and suicidal. I wasn't until I was in my later teenage years that I realized some of the things I did when I was very young (5 to 8 years old) were indicative of my future sexual orientation.

So you tell me, when should I have first learned about homosexuality? When should I have been taught not to let older men take me into their homes to "show me things" (can't remember the age; 7 I think)? I won't say how old I was when I started masturbating but I guarantee you, it's before the age you're going to come up with as an answer for when I should have learned about it for the first time.

Now here's an even more fun question for you: how typical was my sexual development?
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