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  #61  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 12:37 AM
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Well I'm glad to see it wasn't more bigotry, just a bizarre archaic term.

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Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
If people in the north are truly fed up, they should get together and write to ON NDP to do something
They're the opposition to Doug Ford. They would be just as effective if they left their seats empty the entire time. He won't listen to anything they have to say, he only cares about his own platform.
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  #62  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
Very true. The main thing northern Ontario lacks is autonomy.

For example, PEI purchases most of their advanced health care in specialized centres in Halifax, Moncton and Saint John. The island government has the ability to choose the partnerships it wants in this regard, and does what is best for their own interests. All the major decisions affecting northern Ontario are made by mandarins in Toronto who don't really give a shit.

I'm a big proponent of political devolution for northern Ontario, if not downright provincehood.........
Northern Ontario is just so awkward of a place though. It is more like two regions (Northeast and Northwest) with a common thread (resource-economy hinterland) that don't really interact much with each other, because it's so huge in area.

Parts of the Northeast are close enough to the south (Ottawa/Toronto) that it falls in that orbit. People from North Bay and Sudbury don't have huge barriers to getting to a major Canadian city for the things they need - they're actually closer to Toronto than Ottawa is. There is a francophone element to the northeast too - they seem to identify more with Ottawa than Toronto IMO.

The rest of the Northeast is fairly remote. Places west of Sudbury and north of North Bay do have serious challenges with accessibility. They're so small they fall off the radar though - the largest cities are Sault Ste. Marie (~80,000) and Timmins (~45,000). The rest of the places are tiny towns.

The Northwest is similar in feel to the Northeast, but has its own unique challenges. Thunder Bay is remote - it's closer to Minneapolis than any other Canadian city. If national borders weren't a thing, I'm sure it would be in Minneapolis' orbit. It has the same issues with accessibility (pretty much flying is the best option to the next major city), but it while it is mostly English-speaking, it has the dynamic of many Native reserves in the area. In a sense, it's more like Northern Manitoba.

People lump them together, but they don't really interact with one another. Denoting province status on 'Northern Ontario' would likely lead to infighting between each region. There's no neat solution to jurisdictions, unless each became their own province.
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  #63  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
Speaking of that, why isn’t Andrea Horwath (ON NDP) saying anything about giving Northern Ontario some degree of autonomy? ON NDP almost swept the North in June.
They would lose a chunk of their base if Northern Ontario became its own thing.
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  #64  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 12:42 AM
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The remote parts of Northeastern Ontario, like Timmins, have more in common with Thunder Bay than North Bay. We'd definitely have a New Brunswick-like split though, where you have two nearly equal sized cities representing each half of the province, one of those halves being largely Francophone and the other being stubbornly opposed to control from anyone but itself.

But we wouldn't have to compete with the south for attention. This would be the time to do it, since our natural resources at the moment are apparently worthless and we're just a burden.
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  #65  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
If people in the north are truly fed up, they should get together and write to ON NDP to do something, but that’s Ontario politics from here on...
Why the NDP? They gain nothing in Ontario by advocating for NO to leave.

If Northern Ontarians were serious about their sovereignty an independence they would vote for the effective separatist parties that run there. Get people in the legislature and make progress that way.

The Northern Ontario party managed 5,918 votes in 10 NO ridings (or 1.65% of total votes cast in NO).

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Originally Posted by vid
The remote parts of Northeastern Ontario, like Timmins, have more in common with Thunder Bay than North Bay. We'd definitely have a New Brunswick-like split though, where you have two nearly equal sized cities representing each half of the province, one of those halves being largely Francophone and the other being stubbornly opposed to control from anyone but itself.
I understand what you're getting at but New Brunswick is split between three cities of nearly equal size and two languages that are split 70%/30%.
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  #66  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 12:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vid View Post
The remote parts of Northeastern Ontario, like Timmins, have more in common with Thunder Bay than North Bay. We'd definitely have a New Brunswick-like split though, where you have two nearly equal sized cities representing each half of the province, one of those halves being largely Francophone and the other being stubbornly opposed to control from anyone but itself.

But we wouldn't have to compete with the south for attention. This would be the time to do it, since our natural resources at the moment are apparently worthless and we're just a burden.
I agree, I've always advocated for northern separation. I was raised in the south, but both my parents were born and raised in the north (Nipigon/Red Rock). Even my older brother was born in Thunder Bay. Spent all my summers on Mazukama Bay (most northern point of Lake Superior) as a child. I think provincehood for Northern Ontario is the only option that makes sense, I've always found it bizarre that the movement, until recently, has always been so fledgling.
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  #67  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 12:57 AM
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But we wouldn't have to compete with the south for attention. This would be the time to do it, since our natural resources at the moment are apparently worthless and we're just a burden.
True. The problem lies in the fact that we're not terribly united aside from disliking the south - how political power and funds would be allocated would likely tear us apart. We don't really form a natural area as one province - there's no primary city (like Halifax or Winnipeg) and the cities that do act as anchors are so far apart as if to be in different provinces.

The Northeast would want special disposition for it's Francophone population, while the Northwest would want consideration for the reserves and Native population. Places like North Bay probably wouldn't want in at all.

It's not an easy pie to cut up, unless we're doing very small slices.
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  #68  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 1:05 AM
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I always thought Sault Ste. Marie would make the perfect Northern Ontario (Winipekwa?) capital city. It is closer to the Northeastern cities, but culturally relates more to the Northwestern cities, so it would make a good balance. Just don't know if we'd want a border city being a provincial capital.
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  #69  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 1:09 AM
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
If Northern Ontarians were serious about their sovereignty an independence they would vote for the effective separatist parties that run there. Get people in the legislature and make progress that way.
I think it might be more effective to just have one of the existing parties give a fuck about us. The Liberals, for the most part, did that over the past decade. They invested a lot in this region. Doug Ford sees that as political favouritism, though, so he's undoing it.

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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
I understand what you're getting at but New Brunswick is split between three cities of nearly equal size and two languages that are split 70%/30%.
Northern Ontario has 780,000 people and New Brunswick has 770,000 people.

Northern Ontario is 73% anglophone, New Brunswick is 66% anglophone. A large portion of Northern Ontario's 27% non-Anglo population, however, speak Italian, Finnish, or a native language. Our language diversity is actually quite high.

Sudbury has 165,000 (21.2%) people and Moncton has 144,000 (18.7%). Both are inland Francophone cities.
Thunder Bay has 121,000 (15.5%) people and Saint John has 126,000 (16.3%). Both are Anglophone ports.
Sault Ste Marie has 78,000 (10%) people and Fredericton has 105,000 (13.6) people. Both are.. I don't know, on rivers or something.

They don't have anything equivalent to North Bay or Timmins; Northern Ontario is more urban than New Brunswick because we have fewer small towns all over the place. There isn't really a "rural" area here, it's either city or bush.

I'm not sure you can find another province or region with demographics that match Northern Ontario's as well as New Brunswick. Maybe Newfoundland (you can make the case economically) but it's a bit of a stretch, and they have a single dominant city.
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  #70  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 1:16 AM
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I wasn't disagreeing with you.

NO's issues are much more complicated than NB's on a number of different levels, though, looking in at a tighter angle. I find the people from each are relatively similar (or, at least, the anglophones are).
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  #71  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 1:17 AM
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Just don't know if we'd want a border city being a provincial capital.
Why not? Their eccentrically-located, stone's-throw-from-the-US capital hasn't been a problem for BC - it's been one of the best performing provinces.

And obviously, if the Americans ever wanted to physically invade Canada, having our capitals slightly further north from the border wouldn't make the slightest difference.
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  #72  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 1:20 AM
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I'm not sure you can find another province or region with demographics that match Northern Ontario's as well as New Brunswick. Maybe Newfoundland (you can make the case economically) but it's a bit of a stretch, and they have a single dominant city.
And I suppose the counterpart to southern Ontario as far as NB is concerned would be Nova Scotia (although we are in fact politically independent of them, and have been since 1785).
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  #73  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 1:21 AM
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This is true at a descriptive level but it's worth noting that PEI is a province so there is a lot they can do for themselves even if the rest of Canada doesn't think about them much or care about their concerns.

Note that PEI can also coordinate with other provinces if it wants, and this happens. Some of their services are provided in NB or NS but if they want or are able to run their own in the future they can.

Northern Ontario is one of the more politically disadvantaged areas because it is in such a large (and not super functional) province. It would be fairer for Northern Ontario to be its own province.
True, but I meant it more in the sense that if Canadians ever enthusiastically elected in a landslide a federal government whose platform included greatly screwing PEI, then that would simply be democracy at work.
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  #74  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 1:23 AM
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Just don't know if we'd want a border city being a provincial capital.
If Quebec has separated, Ottawa would have been a border city.

If southern secession had succeeded, Washington would have been a border city too.
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  #75  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 1:23 AM
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Sault Ste. Marie would make the ideal capital, since it is neither of the largest cities and it is centrally located. It also has a better airport than Sudbury, making it more accessible for legislators.

The fact that it's on the border isn't that much of a concern. Thunder Bay is essentially on the border too. I can see America from my house!
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  #76  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 1:25 AM
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Sault Ste. Marie would make the ideal capital, since it is neither of the largest cities and it is centrally located.
Sounds like Fredericton - another NB parallel.

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It also has a better airport than Sudbury, making it more accessible for legislators.
Alas, Moncton has the best NB airport.
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  #77  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 1:26 AM
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True, but I meant it more in the sense that if Canadians ever enthusiastically elected in a landslide a federal government whose platform included greatly screwing PEI, then that would simply be democracy at work.
That's (in theory) why we have Constitutional protections, such as designated number of Senators, preventing provinces from losing MPs, despite decreases in population and the amending formula for the Constitution, among other things.

Preventing tyranny of the majority is one of the concerns of a federal state.
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  #78  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 1:30 AM
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Originally Posted by vid View Post
Sault Ste. Marie would make the ideal capital, since it is neither of the largest cities and it is centrally located. It also has a better airport than Sudbury, making it more accessible for legislators.

The fact that it's on the border isn't that much of a concern. Thunder Bay is essentially on the border too. I can see America from my house!
The Sault or Timmins would be my vote.

Timmins would be more representative of the north as a whole - partly Francophone, tied to the reserves of the Northeast along the James Bay coast and dominated by mining and forestry economically. The location is poorer than the Sault, but there's no really good existing location for a capital.
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  #79  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 1:32 AM
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Preventing tyranny of the majority is one of the concerns of a federal state.
As I said in the other thread, the job of the people who govern us is to strike the right balance between democracy and tyranny of the majority.
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  #80  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2018, 1:34 AM
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The fact that it's on the border isn't that much of a concern. Thunder Bay is essentially on the border too. I can see America from my house!
If "being on the border" is a problem for some reason, then we have a much greater problem than the irrelevant tiny capital of irrelevant Northern Ontario being on the border, as our main cities are either on the border (Vancouver), almost on the border (Montreal), and pretty damn close to the border (Toronto).
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