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  #21  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2010, 2:40 PM
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The difference is, it would fit in at Coney Island... it looks like a roller coaster and it at Coney Island it wouldn't have to take on such a serious purpose.

The fact they compare it to the Eiffel Tower and Lady Liberty really just shows you what state the UK is in right now.
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  #22  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2010, 3:21 PM
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Please don't take this personally, Londoners, but everything about the 2012 games looks like its going to turn out a bit odd.

The logo is horrible, the venues designs are off-putting, and now this? I always look forward to the Olympics and seeing how the city presents itself and looks during the games, from the people to the buildings, venues, signs, wraps, etc.

Personally, from what I've seem so far, London is going to be remembered as the city that tried too hard to be different, without a budget to do so properly (Beijing) and failed.

When I saw the bizarre the London portion of the closing ceremonies was in 2008, I figured it was just because I still had the spectacle of the Beijing ceremonies on my mind. 2 years later, it looks like the whole of London 2012 is going to turn out the same way.
     
     
  #23  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2010, 4:53 PM
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Personally, from what I've seem so far, London is going to be remembered as the city that tried too hard to be different, without a budget to do so properly (Beijing) and failed.
I think you're reading way too much into what are, in general, peripheral things. And I don't really see how the venues are "off-putting" in any way. Have a look in the London venues thread in the Urban development forum. Things are coming along really very well. We're building a proper Olympic park (not a parade ground ala Beijing) the size of Hyde Park with waterways, wetlands, grasslands etc., gorgeous permanent venues in the velodrome, aquatic centre and handball arena, a light and intimate Olympic stadium surrounded by waterways (designed much more for spectators' enjoyment than Beijing's monlith was), and will also be using venues like Wembley, Lords, Wimbledon, the O2 Arena....world famous venues which few cities can match. On top of that you can add Greenwich Park, Hyde Park, Regents Park, Horse Guards Parade, world famous football stadiums, a marathon that will take in the sights of London all being used as venues which will provide brilliant backdrops.

London's Games has a huge amount going for them, and I think if you really and truly realised the scale and the immense amount of work going on on the ground to create what will be one of the greatest Olympic Parks in the world (park being the operative word) , your outlook would be much more positive. I think, and indeed hope, you'll be pleasantly surprised to be honest. That's for us to prove to you of course, but personally, from what I've seen so far I have little doubt we will.

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The fact they compare it to the Eiffel Tower and Lady Liberty really just shows you what state the UK is in right now.
Right, intelligent post or what? LOL. It shows how dumb and hubristic Boris Johnson can be, and I cringed when I read that comment of his, precisly because I knew it'd have the French and Americans laughing (and rightly so). But you didn't really need to generalise one comment across a whole country and make yourself look like a bit of a tit in the process, did you?

Last edited by RobH; Apr 4, 2010 at 5:35 PM.
     
     
  #24  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2010, 8:18 PM
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i agree that this would fit in coney island. it's not a bad looking structure, i just don't see it fitting for the olympic games, or for london in general.

london's architecture is very ahead, and doesn't try to overdo things, but this thing just isn't right imho. as for the olympic venues, the velodrome and aquatic center are beautiful, and the stadium is amazing. it's not trying to be a world icon, but it's simple and weightless (since people keep comparing to beijing, the london olympic stadium looks very light and simple, compared to the intricate and thick bird's nest).

i actually love the olympic venues, but please, let's not put this tower! i liked the cloud idea better.
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  #25  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2010, 8:43 PM
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I think lots of us did, but that was so wildly unrealistic, completely pie in the sky architecture. Did you ever believe in a million years something like that would be built? To get something like that built before the Games would have cost a lot more than the £15m this is costing and could surely not have been designed, built, approved in the timeframe available even if it was possible to build!

The tower could be better than it is, and I'm not sure whether I like it or not to be honest, but at least it's do-able and being done. The cloud idea was just silly.
     
     
  #26  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2010, 9:02 PM
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Originally Posted by RobH View Post
Right, intelligent post or what? LOL. It shows how dumb and hubristic Boris Johnson can be, and I cringed when I read that comment of his, precisly because I knew it'd have the French and Americans laughing (and rightly so). But you didn't really need to generalise one comment across a whole country and make yourself look like a bit of a tit in the process, did you?
To be quite frank I think it is a perfectly fair viewpoint. Lets face it, both the UK and America are having a hard time, as societies, dealing with the rise of the East. After the crash you cannot tell me with a straight face that the UK is not extremely sensitive about how it is viewed and its waning hegemony. Its what has prompted MPs to declare the "special relationship over"... drama much? Its why when Obama snubbed Brown at the G20 in Pittsburgh and again in Copenhagen every day the London Times ran front page articles about, "are we still important?".

It is a fair remark, if this were 1850 or there abouts the UK, or at that point GB, would not feel the need to build some gimmick structure and compare it to such historical buildings.

This is not an attack on the UK, were dealing with it over here too. You think Americans are happy about seeing their own dominance fade? They are... but we haven't gotten to the point where the mayor of NY built a fence and compared it to the Great Wall... not yet at least.
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  #27  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2010, 9:23 PM
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To be quite frank I think it is a perfectly fair viewpoint. Lets face it, both the UK and America are having a hard time, as societies, dealing with the rise of the East. After the crash you cannot tell me with a straight face that the UK is not extremely sensitive about how it is viewed and its waning hegemony. Its what has prompted MPs to declare the "special relationship over"... drama much? Its why when Obama snubbed Brown at the G20 in Pittsburgh and again in Copenhagen every day the London Times ran front page articles about, "are we still important?".
I think you're reading far too much into what happens when our bonkers Mayor comments on an equally bonkers sculpture. Really, I'm amazed you can take that much from this tower or his comments. This has nothing to do with our place in the world or the rise of the East or the UK's waning hegemony. It's a mad artwork being constructed in a park in London, designed to draw tourists after the Olympic crowd has gone, and an overexcited Mayor putting his foot in his mouth as he always does.

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A fair remark, if this were 1850 or there abouts the UK, or at that point GB, would not feel the need to build some gimmick structure and compare it to such historical buildings.
Again, the UK hasn't compared it to the Eiffel Tower. Boris Johnson has. Please, please, please, please don't take what this man says to be anything like representative of UK opinion. God, it's quite terrifying to think that people outside the UK take Boris seriously when he says things like this.

Do a bit of Googling on Boris Johnson if you have a spare five minutes (or, even better, maybe search his name on YouTube) and you'll see what I mean. He's an intelligent man, but a complete fool at the same time. He says things like that all the time before engaging brain. We know not to take him seriously when he comes out with guff like this, but obviously people outside the UK take him at face value and end up overanalysing his words like you have!! Scary.
     
     
  #28  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2010, 9:46 PM
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Originally Posted by arkhitektor View Post
Please don't take this personally, Londoners, but everything about the 2012 games looks like its going to turn out a bit odd.

The logo is horrible, the venues designs are off-putting, and now this? I always look forward to the Olympics and seeing how the city presents itself and looks during the games, from the people to the buildings, venues, signs, wraps, etc.

Personally, from what I've seem so far, London is going to be remembered as the city that tried too hard to be different, without a budget to do so properly (Beijing) and failed.

When I saw the bizarre the London portion of the closing ceremonies was in 2008, I figured it was just because I still had the spectacle of the Beijing ceremonies on my mind. 2 years later, it looks like the whole of London 2012 is going to turn out the same way.
Public art/tower aside the London 2012 Olympics will indeed be odd; to be odd is to be British and the reason why we have a knack for being one of the most culturally inventive societies about ranging from sports, art, music, film and architecture.

As such, the Olympics is an event requiring a much needed makeover; out goes the corporatised image of the logo, mascots and white elephant stadiums, and in comes a model for a sustainable legacy that the city will actually benefit from. Most importantly it will be one giant party - a complete contrast to Beijing

If there is one thing I can be certain of it is that the venues will be far more impressive in London than they were in Beijing;
- Wimbledon for tennis
- Wembley for football
- the Dome for gymnastics
- The Royal Artillery Barracks for shooting
- Lords for archery
- Horseguards Parade for Volleyball
- Greenwich Park for the Equestrian events
- Hyde Park for the Triathalon

The most interesting development could be that of the proposed 1,000m x 30m recycled polymer screen, that would wrap-round the Olympic Stadium - essentially turning the stadium into one giant 360 degree screen broadcasting events inside and elsewhere.

We also have to remember that London doesn't want a repeat of Beijing where the city is left with a stadium that sees little use in legacy mode. The London stadium has been designed to see a capacity reduction to 25,000 after the games; this will ensure that the stadium is a viable athletics-centered venue.

Of course come the closing ceremony the whole thing could end up a complete mess, but you don't judge a book by its cover. To prove the point, compare the Athens-Beijing handover ceremony to the Beijing opening ceremony.
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  #29  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2010, 9:54 PM
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Ah, welcome Nito, please back me up here. Has anything Boris Johnson ever said warrented the sort of analysis FerrariEnzo has given it?

I don't know if there's a US equivilient to Boris. A bumbling but charasmatic politician who always puts his foot in his mouth but is almost universally liked nevertheless. But if there is, imagine one of his sillier comments being printed in a UK newspaper, and then undergoing the kind of analysis you've given Boris' comment. Perhaps you'll see where I'm coming from then FerrariEnzo.

Sorry to labour the point, but nobody in the UK would read anything like what you've read into Boris' comments.
     
     
  #30  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2010, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by RobH View Post
Ah, welcome Nito, please back me up here. Has anything Boris Johnson ever said warrented the sort of analysis FerrariEnzo has given it?

I don't know if there's a US equivilient to Boris. A bumbling but charasmatic politician who always puts his foot in his mouth but is almost universally liked nevertheless. But if there is, imagine one of his sillier comments being printed in a UK newspaper, and then undergoing the kind of analysis you've given Boris' comment. Perhaps you'll see where I'm coming from then FerrariEnzo.

Sorry to labour the point, but nobody in the UK would read anything like what you've read into Boris' comments.
Did some searches, appears your are right, he is a first class clown. How did he get elected??
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  #31  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2010, 1:32 AM
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As such, the Olympics is an event requiring a much needed makeover; out goes the corporatised image of the logo, mascots and white elephant stadiums, and in comes a model for a sustainable legacy that the city will actually benefit from. Most importantly it will be one giant party - a complete contrast to Beijing
That's a pretty subjective view of what the Olympics should be, but I guess it's not for me to say that what London is trying to do is wrong. I'll just have to wait and see.

In London's defense, I've never seen a handover ceremony that wasn't a disappointment. What Sochi did in Vancouver was a complete mess.
     
     
  #32  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2010, 3:05 AM
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Each and every one of us could have designed this thing.

I'm disgusted by that smug photo of Anish Kapoor.
He KNOWS he's pulling the wool over everyone's eyes (and reaping in millions).
     
     
  #33  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2010, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by arkhitektor View Post
That's a pretty subjective view of what the Olympics should be, but I guess it's not for me to say that what London is trying to do is wrong. I'll just have to wait and see.

In London's defense, I've never seen a handover ceremony that wasn't a disappointment. What Sochi did in Vancouver was a complete mess.
Interestingly the approach London wanted to take the Olympics, was the same direction that the IOC wanted to go. Essentially the Olympics had become a bloated over-commercialised entity. The games became more about boosting the national ego than providing any long-term positives, especially for the host city that ended up with white elephant stadiums.

When I was in Beijing after the Olympics, the Birds Nest came across as an attractive piece of architecture and engineering - but then you realise that it (and the other permanent arenas) have little long-term benefit to the city and the surrounding community because they lack a long-term tenant. Quite simply no city on the planet outside of an Olympics has a requirement for a 80,000 capacity athletics stadium.
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  #34  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2010, 1:14 PM
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Quite simply no city on the planet outside of an Olympics has a requirement for a 80,000 capacity athletics stadium.
I'll put that slightly differently. No city in a democratic country could get away with building a permanant 80,000 capacity athletics stadium and have it host only three events in two years after the Olympic Games, as is the case with the Birds Nest. That's why judging future hosts by Beijing's standards is, whilst inevitable, quite unfair.

And that is also exactly why Chicago followed London's lead in their bid and, despite failing, were praised for doing so.

We're never going to see a Games like Beijing 2008 again (excepting, perhaps Sochi 2014, although even that won't approach Beijing's scale). London's use of temporary and partially-temporary venues is something other cities are copying in their bids. If some here think London's venues are odd, and are using Beijing as a yardstick, they're in for a lot of dissapointment in the coming decades as London's model is much closer to how a lot of bids are looking nowadays.
     
     
  #35  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2010, 10:08 PM
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Actually London's Olympics are the second most expensive ever ($30 billion as opposed to Beijing's $44 billion).
Even then much more gets done but isn't part of the official budget.

For infrastructure alone, in the lead up to the Games London has so far completed:

1. a new $8.6 billion airport terminal doubling the size of the world busiest international airport, and largened the city's lead as the the worlds busiest airhub (140 million passengers p/a), alongside most internationally visited city.

2. Completed the $7.9 billion Channel Tunnel Rail Link to the Games site, alongside a new $1.5 billion terminal - total HSR development cost so far $10.9 billion.

3. East London's DLR (light rail) refurb and extension to increase line usage to 80 million

4. Created the new London Overground network (Games site is at the start, in Stratford):


http://bnb.bpweb.net

5. Expanded east London's Stansted Airport from 15 million capacity to 25 million this year (and given the green light for further expansion to 35 million).

6. Opened its $1.2 billion 90,000 capacity New Wembley stadium where the soccer will be held. It joined new stadiums of 60,000 (Emirates), 80,000 (Twickenham) and 80,000 (Ascot).

7. Totally rejuvenated all major streets, tube stations, parks, museums and attractions at untold cost, in hundreds of separate projects.

8. Tore down and regenerated each of the most notorious estates in the city, mostly in the east (Kidbrooke, Ferrier, Aylesbury, North Peckham), at $7.5 billion cost. The last, Elephant and Castle is currently undergoing a $2.3 billion masterplanning.

8. Built and added thousands of extra hotel rooms every year, with a total of 13,300 extra by 2012 (total number of hotel rooms by then 123,000).

^The thing is none of this counts as Olympic development.

Last edited by muppet; Apr 5, 2010 at 10:20 PM.
     
     
  #36  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2010, 10:12 PM
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Updates

Its pretty much a new CBD and international terminus alongside the Olympic site
(the park alone will be bigger than NYC's Central Park):


Frans Zwart on Flickr


key

http://i.thisislondon.co.uk


at top left

DarJoLe

close-ups:

Thanx to DarJoLe

London2012.com:
















some pix of Zaha Hadid's Aquatic Centre, and the Olympic Village:

















     
     
  #37  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2010, 10:37 PM
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^Your points are noted, but I think comparing budgets for projects in the UK and China are unfair. I mean for the price of one worker in the UK you could probably hire 10 in China. Thats why it only cost $1.2 Billion or so to build Burj Dubai but would cost $4 billion in NY.

Though the amount of infrastructure London is getting out of the games is really awesome, it will serve the city well for years to come.
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  #38  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2010, 12:44 AM
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Well, if ArcelorMittal is paying for it, that explains why there's so much steel in the thing.
     
     
  #39  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2010, 1:01 PM
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^Your points are noted, but I think comparing budgets for projects in the UK and China are unfair. I mean for the price of one worker in the UK you could probably hire 10 in China. Thats why it only cost $1.2 Billion or so to build Burj Dubai but would cost $4 billion in NY.

Though the amount of infrastructure London is getting out of the games is really awesome, it will serve the city well for years to come.


True, but the infrastructural development, + Olympic budget is still something like $70 billion. That doesnt include the private investment (eg new CBD, refurbishment of all museums, squares, major stations, streets etc).
     
     
  #40  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2010, 2:45 PM
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The difference is, it would fit in at Coney Island...
Give it a few decades, and you'd be saying the same thing about London.

Folks, these things aren't always well received in their early stages. But this is something that could be a defining landmark for London in the future. It may not be the most "beautiful" of icons by some standards, but it is what it is.
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