Salt Lake Transit News Thread

[Makid]

This is the Main reason that I think the Nashville transit plan failed. They were going from basically no transit to a full plan of LRT routes with a mile long tunnel plus BRT lines and more.

The problem is there isn't a transit culture. It failed by more than a 2 to 1 margin. Mostly because people weren't transit could do for them due to the lack of the transit culture.

In general, we really need to treat all aspects of bus transit like we treat rail transit. I'm fairly convinced the reason people like TRAX and rail transit is not because they are rail fans. (I am a rail fan, and it takes one to know one!) Instead they like the superior experience. Buses can offer that same experience, it just needs a coordinated vision from UTA (or whatever we call it now) and funding.

I very much agree. I think that if we can get a few good bus projects done to show what buses can do, we will see people start to consider the bus as a transit option. Hopefully the Provo/Orem BRT line and some improvements along State Street can help.

I am curious what the cost would be to do a phased approach of something like the ORBT project along State Street, 700E or Redwood Road. Phase 1 would just be the curb extensions and painting, Phase 2 would be the shelters and Phase 3 would be the branded buses.

Eventually, I think it would be great if stops like these were in place for all 15 minute or better frequency bus routes.

[joscar]

The UTA board should be approving the the Ogden/Weber State BRT's Memorandum of Understanding between UTA and stakeholders at their meeting on May 23rd. The memorandum sets out who will be paying for what and when the payments are due. All estimates given are for construction in 2020.

http://rideuta.com/-/media/Files/Boa...ket.ashx?la=en

[i-215]

Legislature is telling UTA to "push the pause button" on changing their name to TDU.

The name change will be re-evaluated next session. A reporter asked "what if [next year's session] want to proceed with the name change?"

He replied, "good luck."

Sounds like the name change is dead.

Second legislator: "Name change is a distraction."

[Hatman]

Originally Posted by i-215

Sounds like the name change is dead.

I think that thoroughly expresses how happy I am to hear this.

[Makid]

Originally Posted by Hatman

I think that thoroughly expresses how happy I am to hear this.

I don't think it could be covered better Hatman.

I would be fine with the Governor calling a special session to remove the name change as opposed to waiting for the next session.

[ThePusherMan]

What's in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet... Or in this case changing the name wouldn't change a single thing. UTA is a fitting name that describes exactly what the org does. What was ever the point in changing the name. To make the suburbanites feel better about tax increases to fund public transport? What a waste of time!

[asies1981]

The city is testing out a roundabout on 900 South and 1100 East.

[delts145]

Lawmakers pull the plug on UTA name change

Lisa Riley Roche - Deseret News, https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...me-change.html

SALT LAKE CITY — Lawmakers confirmed Wednesday they're pulling the plug on changing the name of the Utah Transit Authority, just hours after Gov. Gary Herbert said he was willing to call a special session if necessary to stop the name change.

"It's clear that the public doesn't feel that the name change is needed and appropriate," said Rep. Mike Schultz, R-Hooper, the House sponsor of the sweeping transportation legislation that renamed UTA the Transit District of Utah.

The sponsor of SB136, Sen. Wayne Harper, R-Taylorsville, said he would run legislation repealing the new name during the 2019 Legislature and asked that UTA not go forward with plans to bring in a rebranding consultant.

"The name change is a distraction. It's getting in the way of the core mission of the bill," Harper said at a news conference called to announce the decision. "We're taking that off the table. UTA stays as it is."

UTA spokesman Carl Arky said the transit agency will comply with whatever lawmakers want...

A Utah Transit Authority TRAX train carries passengers on Main Street in Salt Lake City on Tuesday, Jan. 23, 2018.

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[Makid]

News is already starting about the Transit and Transportation funding for the Point of the Mountain:

https://www.ksl.com/?sid=46322037&ni...in-development

Lawmakers seek funding for new TRAX lines, Point of the Mountain development

To deal with the growth, Point of the Mountain Commission officials are proposing massive new infrastructure projects, including several new TRAX lines and a new boulevard that would connect Salt Lake and Utah counties without requiring commuters to get on I-15.

There have been other stories in the last few days and I will see if I can find them where it talks about the Governor and the Legislators talking about starting funding for Trax extensions into Utah County and through the PoM redevelopment area starting in the next session. There was discussion regarding possibly not bonding for the projects but using surplus funds and direct payments from both the General Fund and the Highway Fund to pay for the projects.

Additionally they want to move quick on FrontRunner upgrades. I think that Study should be complete sometime in August.

It does look like Utah will have gone from a State that had $0.00 state level funding going to transit in 2017, to legalizing it in 2018, and then possibly jumping in (possibly deep) in 2019, if everything plays out like it looks currently.

As a side note for major projects/notes that can impact ridership there are only 3 that I am aware of through 2019:

August 2018: Orem/Provo BRT opens
Summer 2019: S-Line streetcar double tracked section to allow 15 minute frequency
August 2019: Salt Lake City Transit Master plan (phase 1 or phase 1 and 2) begins service.

Only other changes that I can see happening is SL County implementing the Prop 1 sales tax this year. Funding from that wouldn't impact UTA service until August of 2019.

Are there any other concrete projects that would have an impact on transit ridership in the next 15 months?

[Hatman]

TRAX lines - as in plural? Are they talking about a Draper - Lehi line and a Lehi - American Fork line as if they were two separate things? Or are they still trying to shoehorn TRAX into the prison site? Or even worse - they aren't trying to resurrect that idea of extending the Red Line from Daybreak through Harriman and Riverton back to Draper, are they?

I'm not opposed to those other routes as transit routes, but TRAX is not the only transit service UTA can offer. If you are going to make use of an existing rail line, use TRAX. If you are going to make use of a road corridor, use BRT. Let trains be trains, let buses be buses. Otherwise you get a half-human hybrid monster of a system that eats up transit budgets without delivering worthy results.

[Makid]

They has said Trax Lines. I am not sure if they are meaning multiple lines through the area, an extension of the Red through Riverton to meet the Blue line or not.

The only thing I can guarantee though is that the Blue Line to Lehi/Orem will be shifting West through the Prison Redevelopment area and then back East to go back to the UTA ROW near Adobe.

I think that the State may put pressure on MAG to put funding towards a Trax extension going West through Lehi and Saratoga Springs and towards Eagle Mountain. MAG wants BRT but Saratoga Springs and especially Eagle Mountain have wanted Trax and were complaining when MAG put BRT on their 30 year plan.

I would be okay with Trax going through Lehi to Saratoga Springs only because then the Red Line can be extended South to form a long loop there. BRT can be run from Saratoga Springs to Eagle Mountain and from Riverton to the Blue Line/Prison Redevelopment.

I would hope that the State would fund a Study of the Blue Line route adjustment through the Redevelopment area and use the FrontRunner study release in August a something to do direct funding for in the immediate future (next few years).

This way they can do a single project at a time. And knock out one of the biggest bang for the buck ones first since they can't start the Blue Line extension anyway until 2021 at the earliest but could start FrontRunner upgrades next year.

[i-215]

Originally Posted by asies1981

The city is testing out a roundabout on 900 South and 1100 East.

That's really cool! I read about it in the paper this morning.

In traffic engineering, it's all been about using computers to do modeling before a project is implemented. But in a lower-volume case like this, what a wonder low-cost way for the community themselves to "try it before you buy it."

I love it!

[Hatman]

Originally Posted by Makid

The only thing I can guarantee though is that the Blue Line to Lehi/Orem will be shifting West through the Prison Redevelopment area and then back East to go back to the UTA ROW near Adobe.

Really? They want to add a detour of the existing ROW, cross I-15 and go down the hill to the prison site, then go back up the hill and cross I-15 again to get back to the ROW, all to serve an area that is less than 3,000 feet from the ROW already? That is nuts!
Are you sure you can guarantee that? And why can't work on the extension start until 2021?

[Wasatch Wasteland]

Originally Posted by Hatman

TRAX lines - as in plural? Are they talking about a Draper - Lehi line and a Lehi - American Fork line as if they were two separate things? Or are they still trying to shoehorn TRAX into the prison site? Or even worse - they aren't trying to resurrect that idea of extending the Red Line from Daybreak through Harriman and Riverton back to Draper, are they?

I'm not opposed to those other routes as transit routes, but TRAX is not the only transit service UTA can offer. If you are going to make use of an existing rail line, use TRAX. If you are going to make use of a road corridor, use BRT. Let trains be trains, let buses be buses. Otherwise you get a half-human hybrid monster of a system that eats up transit budgets without delivering worthy results.

The primary TRAX proposals are the extension of the blue line to American Fork/Orem, and the extension of the Red Line to the new SLCC campus/proposed future mixed use and office area at roughly 14600 S. Herriman has the ROW for this already preserved within current and future developments. (Examples can be seen on Autumn crest blvd and through the Herriman City Center development)

As far as the TRAX line from Herriman to Draper, it is mapped out in Herriman’s master plan branching off from their own extension line which they are fully preparing for. In Riverton’s master plan in conjunction with the massive daybreak-like development in the works from the LDS Church, they too are proposing connections to TRAX via a cross valley line along 12600. However, in other studies done by the city, UTA, point of the mountain, etc, this cross valley proposal is ambiguously labeled “transit line” vs BRT or light rail.

The Prison plan calls for TRAX to run through the center of it, however which line does so is dependent on whether Riverton allows a cross valley TRAX line to be built on 12600 connecting the Herriman extension and the Prison site. If this option is built, the Red line (or whatever they name it) would branch off from the Herriman extension, run along 12600 S to the Draper front runner station, turn south through the prison development, and then connect with the Blue Line at Plurasights new headquarters. (This option can be seen in plurasights’s site designs). BRT would run north from the prison site to connect with the South Jordan frontrunner station and cross through “downtown sandy” to the blue line. (Fulfilling the need for a high capacity high frequency connection between the two stations and through downtown sandy))

However, if the “transit line” through riverton ends up being BRT, then the TRAX line through the prison site instead will be a reroute of the blue line extension to Utah county. It would branch off at sandy civic center, cross through “downtown sandy” (fulfilling that east west connection once again) to the south Jordan front runner station, paralleling front runner to Draper, where it branches off through the prison site and connects to and continues on the original blue line route at plurasights headquarters.

Rerouting TRAX through a complicated path across downtown sandy and down to the prison site via the front runner corridor seems impractical just to get TRAX through the prison site. If they really want TRAX through the prison site, it makes more sense to me to utilize the cross valley line from Herriman.

So to recap. The TRAX lines in the works are:

-Daybreak to Herriman SLCC campus
-Draper to Utah County (either the original corridor or through the prison site)
-Herriman to Draper (through the prison site)
-either a TRAX line or Frontrunner line to Eagle Mountain. (If front runner, it would be a branch off of the narrows, if TRAX, it would run from American fork across the north shore of Utah lake)

Thoughts and opinions and proposals on the many options ahead of the Point of the Mountian Region in regards to Transit? As far as the Cross valley Trax line, I think it’s needed. The only east west connections in the southern portion of the valley are 104th, 114th, 126th, and Bangeter. All of which are at or pretty dang close to capacity. At that region’s population is supposed to what, triple in the coming years? To increase capacity beyond those 4 routes, the only option really is transit.

Plurasight details: http://kutv.com/news/local/utahs-plu...ters-in-draper

Herriman Details: https://www.herriman.org/wp-document...nd_Use_Map.pdf

Riverton details: http://archive.sltrib.com/article.ph...73&itype=CMSID

Point of the Mountain Details: https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...on+for+Web.pdf

[Makid]

Originally Posted by Wasatch Wasteland
So to recap. The TRAX lines in the works are:

-Daybreak to Herriman SLCC campus
-Draper to Utah County (either the original corridor or through the prison site)
-Herriman to Draper (through the prison site)
-either a TRAX line or Frontrunner line to Eagle Mountain. (If front runner, it would be a branch off of the narrows, if TRAX, it would run from American fork across the north shore of Utah lake)

Thoughts and opinions and proposals on the many options ahead of the Point of the Mountian Region in regards to Transit? As far as the Cross valley Trax line, I think it’s needed. The only east west connections in the southern portion of the valley are 104th, 114th, 126th, and Bangeter. All of which are at or pretty dang close to capacity. At that region’s population is supposed to what, triple in the coming years? To increase capacity beyond those 4 routes, the only option really is transit.

Plurasight details: http://kutv.com/news/local/utahs-plu...ters-in-draper

Herriman Details: https://www.herriman.org/wp-document...nd_Use_Map.pdf

Riverton details: http://archive.sltrib.com/article.ph...73&itype=CMSID

Point of the Mountain Details: https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...on+for+Web.pdf

I like the Plurasight link images.

http://kutv.com/news/local/gallery/u...draper#photo-1

http://kutv.com/news/local/gallery/u...draper#photo-5

#1 for the layout showing the original route of the Blue Line and the possible Red Line connection and then #5 because the Bridge over I-15 would just be great for Trax.

With the Herriman southern stop, it is planned to eventually connect to a Utah County Trax extension (if built). Without Trax planned to go to Saratoga Springs, the Red Line extension would be rerouted.

Final configurations haven't been fully set but it is possible that the Blue Line could be extended to Orem in the existing ROW, a new Line branch off in Sandy and go through the Prison Redevelopment and then connect in Lehi and then the Red Line extend as listed for Herriman and along 26000 South and through to Plurasight.

This could get the State a quick win for Adobe and nearby companies by funding Trax to the area (EIS is complete for SL County) so Construction could start as soon as Funding is authorized. EIS could start for Utah County if not already in progress shortly after end of 2019 session.

The Blue Line extension to Lehi I think was estimated at less than $500 Million. To American Fork Trax is estimated at $1.25 Billion.

The Red Line extension to Herriman and then to the Plurasight HQ would probably come in close to $1 Billion if not a bit more due to the bridge over I-15.

The Sandy branch through the Prison Redevelopment is probably between $1 and $1.5 Billion with bridges/tunnels, utility relocation, ROW acquisition and more.

The Estimates for the Blue Line extension is based on the 2035 time frame so costs may be able to come down if built sooner. The rest are just my estimates based on previous costs.

[Makid]

Thinking this through with branches and keeping the existing alignments in place:

Blue Line extension can begin in SL County in 2019, Utah County in 2020. Open in 2021.

Sandy Branch, EIS start in 2019, start construction in 2020, open in 2022/2023.

Red Line extension, same time table as Sandy Branch.

I think these are the fastest that the lines could start and open based current EIS and status of the Prison Relocation process.

[Wasatch Wasteland]

Originally Posted by Makid

The Sandy branch through the Prison Redevelopment is probably between $1 and $1.5 Billion with bridges/tunnels, utility relocation, ROW acquisition and more.

Because of all this, and the fact that it parallels frontrunner and the blue line, I think BRT would make much more sense.

[Hatman]

It's amazing that there is all this planning being done, but I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed - and not all in good ways.

I feel like the fan of a long-forgotten movie franchise when it is announced that not only is that long-sought-after sequel getting made, but they're splitting it into 5 parts!

Like a movie franchise, it just takes one under-performing installment to kill the whole thing for a while. We saw that with UTA losing the public's trust because of the land deals going badly. If many millions are spent diverting TRAX through what is now an empty field (prison site) just because that's what the politicians want, not only is that many millions that are not being spent on more worthwhile improvements, it also means the public will be far less willing to give transit more money the next time they are asked because that public trust has been violated. Projects like improving FrontRunner or completing the TRAX loops through downtown or building a better Salt Lake Central Station - or even the east-west commuter rail lines - and not to mention all the many many miles of BRT that need to be built... many of these projects could be pushed farther down the road because transit got used as a development tool, rather than a densifying tool.

I guess having the TRAX line to Lehi branch off at Sandy Civic Center makes some kind of sense. It could turn out to be good if the money is spent to develop a proper rail corridor, but I am deeply doubtful that money will be spent that way. It will probably end up like the new 'R Line' in Denver, which feels like a political afterthought because that is exactly what it is. Rather than building a few good lines that really work well, politicians and planners spread out the rail lines into places where rail makes very little sense compared to BRT. And by the most recent low ridership estimates, the public knows the difference.

I still think that BRT's can be just as good as rail lines in terms of experience and ridership so long as someone competent (or some competent organization) is given the resources to make it happen. Everything involving the prison site screems to me 'High-Capacity BRT Line!' connecting between the poorly-located Draper FrontRunner station and the future Highland Drive TRAX station. That makes so much sense to me. It would cost a fraction of what TRAX would cost, and it could be just as effective without risking disillusioning the public.

Again, like the revived movie franchise, I feel like all the new fans of TRAX are really awesome and I'm glad TRAX is getting so much attention. But I feel like people don't know the characters (the characteristics of rail and bus transit), what they're for, what they're good for and what their weaknesses are - and I don't completely trust that the people in charge of this next round of expansion understand the situation like I do.

[Makid]

Originally Posted by Wasatch Wasteland

Because of all this, and the fact that it parallels frontrunner and the blue line, I think BRT would make much more sense.

I agree, this would be better as a BRT line.

I think that the Blue Line extension to Lehi and even American Fork can be a good use of Funds. After that or at a minimum, FrontRunner upgrades need to happen.

The Red Line extension through to the Plurasight HQ area while good does leave a question on capacity for the existing N/S line. There will need to be additional work to support the Red Line loop, unless it is going to end up meeting the Blue Line extension and head South. Then on the North trek, it would turn West on the Red Line and go all the way to the U.

The stub in Herriman makes it difficult to use this unless there is just a route that goes between Fashion Place and Herriman making that section of the Red Line effectively 7 minute frequencies. Having the Herriman connection go further up the main line, at least to 2100 South while possible, could make connections more difficult without some additional track work along the main spine to support the additional load.

I think that we are nearing a tipping point in that we will need to start looking at either going to full grade separation along the main spine through 2100 South if not further North, or we will need to start looking at another North/South LRT Spine for the West side of the SL Valley.

I don't think there is the Density nor Ridership levels to support a second spine, when there are many other projects that could be built for a lot less that would help induce more transit usage and density around the Valley as well as along the Wasatch Front as Hatman has brought up.

[RC14]

Originally Posted by Makid

I think that we are nearing a tipping point in that we will need to start looking at either going to full grade separation along the main spine through 2100 South if not further North, or we will need to start looking at another North/South LRT Spine for the West side of the SL Valley.

I don't think there is the Density nor Ridership levels to support a second spine, when there are many other projects that could be built for a lot less that would help induce more transit usage and density around the Valley as well as along the Wasatch Front as Hatman has brought up.

I believe there are long term plans to bring the green line down 5600 W to meet up with the existing Red line. Or something to that effect. Such an extension could create a "second spine."

I have been thinking about the rail line that runs through Kearns up to Magna. I wonder if that could be used for an LRT line or "light commuter rail" line like the one Hatman proposed going out to Tooele. We could either route the 5600 W transit line down that row to meet up with the existing red line or build a commuter rail line connecting the south valley airport, Kearns and Magna to Hatman's proposed westbound commuter rail line.