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  #81  
Old Posted May 23, 2017, 10:00 PM
Wolf13 Wolf13 is offline
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Originally Posted by biguc View Post
It's not good form to claim people are rejecting your argument and refusing to engage when you reject their language and reduce their arguments to those of a straw man SJW.
The only thing I reduced to that "SJW crap", or intended to, was the insinuation that my perspective and others sharing it stems from thinly veiled white racism.

Like I said in my post, there are many good reasons for this art centre in his post and there were valid points in his argument that I was clearly accepting of.

Then he reduces me with an accusation of racism. That's bullshit. We're on the web and we're anonymous, but attach a name to any of this, put it on twitter and people lose their jobs and get brandished with an attitude that doesn't actually reflect their person. The gravity of the modern application of those accusations are too great for responsible people to label others with them. But you can call me an asshole. Have at it!

Maybe my perspective of the Art centre could be more flexible. Or perhaps I am right for having a cynical response to what can be considered a cyclical process of struggle/political ass-kissing/taxes/success(??). I'm open to changing my perspective with good discussion.

But one does not get to jump up on their white horse and point down accusing "white racism". That's weak and reckless.
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  #82  
Old Posted May 23, 2017, 10:28 PM
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I hear you. Someday, when I have time and access to a PC I'd like to talk with you more about this subject. But suffice to say, we're all capable of holding racist beliefs without being racists, as surely as we are capable of holding scientific beliefs without being scientists. The spirit of conversation and dialogue that leftists nobly espouse doesn't do a bit of good when they forget that conversation and dialogue--not judgment and denunciation--are the tools that lead us to better understanding.
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  #83  
Old Posted May 23, 2017, 10:53 PM
Wolf13 Wolf13 is offline
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Originally Posted by biguc View Post
I hear you. Someday, when I have time and access to a PC I'd like to talk with you more about this subject. But suffice to say, we're all capable of holding racist beliefs without being racists, as surely as we are capable of holding scientific beliefs without being scientists. The spirit of conversation and dialogue that leftists nobly espouse doesn't do a bit of good when they forget that conversation and dialogue--not judgment and denunciation--are the tools that lead us to better understanding.
I'm open to any discussion obviously, but we have to go about using terms carefully. Just because I may be dismissive over the politics surrounding this matter, I won't say my mind is made up and I would also probably sidestep the "holding racist beliefs without being racist" moniker. However, my insensitivity to this centre may ALSO be held by a racist... but for different reasons. His racist, mine not.

At minimum, at the most basic level, we can acknowledge that it's not inconceivable that a non-indigenous person (as they're not all white) might feel that these things are shoved down their throat, and it's not all based out of misconception or hatred. This is not the be-all, end-all, (and there are many argumanets for the Art Centre) but it should not be unreasonable to feel that way without a racism label.

I'm learning more about this every day, but my best friend and best man at my wedding is literally a native social worker and I have also volunteered with native children, so I've been exposed to more than most and get to discuss these things often with knowledgable people. However, while I'm not insensitive, sometimes I say things that are. That I acknowledge easily.
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  #84  
Old Posted May 25, 2017, 12:15 AM
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The Studio building was torn down today.
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  #85  
Old Posted May 25, 2017, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Wolf13 View Post
I'm open to any discussion obviously, but we have to go about using terms carefully. Just because I may be dismissive over the politics surrounding this matter, I won't say my mind is made up and I would also probably sidestep the "holding racist beliefs without being racist" moniker. However, my insensitivity to this centre may ALSO be held by a racist... but for different reasons. His racist, mine not.

At minimum, at the most basic level, we can acknowledge that it's not inconceivable that a non-indigenous person (as they're not all white) might feel that these things are shoved down their throat, and it's not all based out of misconception or hatred. This is not the be-all, end-all, (and there are many argumanets for the Art Centre) but it should not be unreasonable to feel that way without a racism label.

I'm learning more about this every day, but my best friend and best man at my wedding is literally a native social worker and I have also volunteered with native children, so I've been exposed to more than most and get to discuss these things often with knowledgable people. However, while I'm not insensitive, sometimes I say things that are. That I acknowledge easily.

I didn't mean to suggest that you were saying anything racist, just that there are sometimes racist posts on this board, and we can all deal with them more constructively than we usually do.
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  #86  
Old Posted May 25, 2017, 6:44 PM
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Originally Posted by biguc View Post
I didn't mean to suggest that you were saying anything racist, just that there are sometimes racist posts on this board, and we can all deal with them more constructively than we usually do.
Oh, alright then. Whoops and thanks for clarification!
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  #87  
Old Posted May 25, 2017, 7:16 PM
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Get a room you two...
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  #88  
Old Posted May 25, 2017, 8:25 PM
WestEndWander WestEndWander is offline
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Originally Posted by rrskylar View Post
The medium is rock, whale bone and walrus tusk which white do-gooders (exploiters) taught the Inuit to carve as a means for income in the 1950's, it hardly warrant's a $65M gallery just because WAG had a hard on for the stuff and bought up tons of it when nobody else wanted it!
Honestly, where did you get such ridiculous information? I commend you for putting it forward without any research or thought, very brave and Trumplike of you.

Carving has been present in Inuit and Indigenous cultures for thousands of years. I suggest you try researching the Eskimo museum in Churchill, home to Inuit carvings from bone and tusk and rock, which date back thousands of years.

And just try reading. Period. You might find that it is only a $15 million contribution from the Province and again save yourself some face.
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  #89  
Old Posted May 25, 2017, 8:28 PM
WestEndWander WestEndWander is offline
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Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
$65 million to display a bunch of rocks. No wonder we are in such a mess.
No we are in such a mess because we have a majority populace like yourself who don't fully read/comprehend an issue before offering their uninformed two cents on it. A "bunch of rocks" to you, a cultural tradition and art form to tens of thousands. Sorry its not going to potholes.
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  #90  
Old Posted May 25, 2017, 9:18 PM
windypeg windypeg is offline
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Originally Posted by Wolf13 View Post
The only thing I reduced to that "SJW crap", or intended to, was the insinuation that my perspective and others sharing it stems from thinly veiled white racism.

Like I said in my post, there are many good reasons for this art centre in his post and there were valid points in his argument that I was clearly accepting of.

Then he reduces me with an accusation of racism. That's bullshit. We're on the web and we're anonymous, but attach a name to any of this, put it on twitter and people lose their jobs and get brandished with an attitude that doesn't actually reflect their person. The gravity of the modern application of those accusations are too great for responsible people to label others with them. But you can call me an asshole. Have at it!

Maybe my perspective of the Art centre could be more flexible. Or perhaps I am right for having a cynical response to what can be considered a cyclical process of struggle/political ass-kissing/taxes/success(??). I'm open to changing my perspective with good discussion.

But one does not get to jump up on their white horse and point down accusing "white racism". That's weak and reckless.
To be honest that wasn't even really directed at you. I know so many people who just have this automatic, knee-jerk negative reaction to any first nations issue. They never even need to hear what the issue is about, they've consistently made up their mind and they're against it before they've even heard anything about it. I would call that prejudice or a form of racism because there's usually not much of a reason for the hostile reactions, it just seems to be about opposing and dismissing first nations at any opportunity. Most of the posters on here are more intelligent than that and I loathe the SJW "gotcha" crap just as much as the next guy. It wasn't fair to lump you in with that crowd when your opinion is actually well though-out.

Although in the 2 posts above WestEndWander calls out people for doing just this, where people are just so dismissive of indigenous people that it seems like there is some underlying racism. ie. dismissing rich cultural traditions that go back hundreds of years as "a bunch of rocks"
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  #91  
Old Posted May 25, 2017, 9:29 PM
Wolf13 Wolf13 is offline
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Originally Posted by WestEndWander View Post
No we are in such a mess because we have a majority populace like yourself who don't fully read/comprehend an issue before offering their uninformed two cents on it. A "bunch of rocks" to you, a cultural tradition and art form to tens of thousands. Sorry its not going to potholes.
Maybe their (and occasionally my) wording could be different, but the jist of their message remains in tact... we're spending a lot of taxpayer money, way too much in fact, on what seems like a luxury (on which the public is divided) as opposed to a need.
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  #92  
Old Posted May 25, 2017, 9:30 PM
Wolf13 Wolf13 is offline
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Originally Posted by windypeg View Post
To be honest that wasn't even really directed at you. I know so many people who just have this automatic, knee-jerk negative reaction to any first nations issue. They never even need to hear what the issue is about, they've consistently made up their mind and they're against it before they've even heard anything about it. I would call that prejudice or a form of racism because there's usually not much of a reason for the hostile reactions, it just seems to be about opposing and dismissing first nations at any opportunity. Most of the posters on here are more intelligent than that and I loathe the SJW "gotcha" crap just as much as the next guy. It wasn't fair to lump you in with that crowd when your opinion is actually well though-out.

Although in the 2 posts above WestEndWander calls out people for doing just this, where people are just so dismissive of indigenous people that it seems like there is some underlying racism. ie. dismissing rich cultural traditions that go back hundreds of years as "a bunch of rocks"
Thanks, and also sorry... I've cooled down
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  #93  
Old Posted May 25, 2017, 9:31 PM
WestEndWander WestEndWander is offline
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Originally Posted by windypeg View Post
To be honest that wasn't even really directed at you. I know so many people who just have this automatic, knee-jerk negative reaction to any first nations issue. They never even need to hear what the issue is about, they've consistently made up their mind and they're against it before they've even heard anything about it. I would call that prejudice or a form of racism because there's usually not much of a reason for the hostile reactions, it just seems to be about opposing and dismissing first nations at any opportunity. Most of the posters on here are more intelligent than that and I loathe the SJW "gotcha" crap just as much as the next guy. It wasn't fair to lump you in with that crowd when your opinion is actually well though-out.

Although in the 2 posts above WestEndWander calls out people for doing just this, where people are just so dismissive of indigenous people that it seems like there is some underlying racism. ie. dismissing rich cultural traditions that go back hundreds of years as "a bunch of rocks"
Unlike Wolf, who consistently has some of the best and most thorough, though out commentary on these boards, the two posters above deserved to be called out for being nothing but ignorant, and seemingly proud of it. We should be beyond the point of presenting blanket statements or arguments regarding ANY culture/people which minimize or degrade their cultural/traditional contributions. Unfortunately those two posters don't seem to be. There's a big difference between the way Wolf's point of views are presented as opposed to those above. One is educated and eloquent with valid social commentary. The other is just rubbish.
I will leave the determination as to which is which up to you all.
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  #94  
Old Posted May 25, 2017, 9:37 PM
WestEndWander WestEndWander is offline
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Originally Posted by Wolf13 View Post
Maybe their (and occasionally my) wording could be different, but the jist of their message remains in tact... we're spending a lot of taxpayer money, way too much in fact, on what seems like a luxury (on which the public is divided) as opposed to a need.
I had zero issue with your wording or any issue you brought forth Wolf. All valid points for sure. The dismissive attitude presented by those two posters towards the cultural contributions of a thriving tradition is what I didn't appreciate.

In regards to this statement though "we're spending a lot of taxpayer money, way too much in fact, on what seems like a luxury (on which the public is divided) as opposed to a need"
Is this all not a point of personal opinion? Just as with Rapid Transit, The Provancher Bridge, TIFF financing, the opening of Portage and Main? To some these are luxuries, to others a need. What some see as good value for their tax dollars may not always be a shared opinion among everyone, but makes it no less valid.
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  #95  
Old Posted May 25, 2017, 10:06 PM
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... community hub for exhibitions and programs, research and learning, studio practice and art-making. The Centre will offer a unique opportunity to learn about Inuit and Canadian history and culture......

WAG holds in trust the world’s largest public collection of contemporary Inuit art. With more than 13,000 pieces, including 7,500 sculptures, 4,000 prints, 1,900 drawings, as well as hundreds of artifacts, ceramics and textiles, the collection represents half of the WAG’s total permanent collection
http://inuit.wag.ca/
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  #96  
Old Posted May 26, 2017, 1:28 PM
TimeFadesAway TimeFadesAway is offline
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Originally Posted by Wolf13 View Post
Maybe their (and occasionally my) wording could be different, but the jist of their message remains in tact... we're spending a lot of taxpayer money, way too much in fact, on what seems like a luxury (on which the public is divided) as opposed to a need.
The same could be said of the Waverley underpass. Spending a large amount of money to trim 2 minutes off of some folks' commutes.

Ultimately, the arts is an important contributor to quality of life and support of the arts has been demonstrated to pay significant economic dividends, so there is a good argument for government support of the arts. Tourists don't come to see underpasses and pothole-free roads. While this addition to the gallery won't act as a draw on its own, it helps to create a critical mass of attractions to tourists that then makes a stop in Winnipeg worthwhile.
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  #97  
Old Posted May 26, 2017, 2:40 PM
DirtWednesday DirtWednesday is offline
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The same could be said of the Waverley underpass. Spending a large amount of money to trim 2 minutes off of some folks' commutes.

Ultimately, the arts is an important contributor to quality of life and support of the arts has been demonstrated to pay significant economic dividends, so there is a good argument for government support of the arts. Tourists don't come to see underpasses and pothole-free roads. While this addition to the gallery won't act as a draw on its own, it helps to create a critical mass of attractions to tourists that then makes a stop in Winnipeg worthwhile.
Exactly what I was thinking... Internationally First Nations art is highly revered and imitated. I couldn't believe how many dream catchers and headdresses I saw in Indonesia or Croatia. There will be people looking for the real thing, the original art. This brutalistly architected building will be another draw for tourism for travelers who dig this type of stuff. I couldn't give a crap what locals think, what I'm looking forward to is the new blood who appreciate First Nations.
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  #98  
Old Posted May 26, 2017, 3:56 PM
Wolf13 Wolf13 is offline
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The same could be said of the Waverley underpass. Spending a large amount of money to trim 2 minutes off of some folks' commutes.

Ultimately, the arts is an important contributor to quality of life and support of the arts has been demonstrated to pay significant economic dividends, so there is a good argument for government support of the arts. Tourists don't come to see underpasses and pothole-free roads. While this addition to the gallery won't act as a draw on its own, it helps to create a critical mass of attractions to tourists that then makes a stop in Winnipeg worthwhile.
Aggghhh now I'm diggin into my capitalist roots..... You have a good point, but I believe that this underpass plays an ansolutely massive role in the commercial and retail expansion immediately south of it... We may not have the OC (sorry lol) and everything else in the seasons of tuxedo without it. I can't remember if it came before or after IKEA, but surely IKEA knew of its plans.

What I'm saying is that while it's expensive, it has a possitive economic domino effect. On a different level, it's like a suburban metaphor taking the barriers down at P+M... who knows if we could have half these new developments or if the neighbourhoods would have succeeded if this traffic issue hadn't been alleviated. These are HUGE factors for tenants or retailers when entering markets, especially ours. Part of the narrative I always throw around here is that Winnipeg keeps getting in its own way and does not realize the negative effects, the things we miss out on... so the underpass may have been more helpful than we think.

However, that's how I lean. I'm all about getting barriers, physical or economic or even social OUT of the way, so that we can pursue growth and success ourselves. The WAG Inuit Art Centre is not that. It might draw some tourism, but unlikely anything that increases momentum.

But...
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Originally Posted by DirtWednesday View Post
Exactly what I was thinking... Internationally First Nations art is highly revered and imitated. I couldn't believe how many dream catchers and headdresses I saw in Indonesia or Croatia. There will be people looking for the real thing, the original art. This brutalistly architected building will be another draw for tourism for travelers who dig this type of stuff. I couldn't give a crap what locals think, what I'm looking forward to is the new blood who appreciate First Nations.

.....I could be very wrong about my perception of Inuit Art's international appeal. I'd love to be wrong about this, and I say that genuinely, not cynically.
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  #99  
Old Posted May 26, 2017, 6:45 PM
TimeFadesAway TimeFadesAway is offline
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.....I could be very wrong about my perception of Inuit Art's international appeal. I'd love to be wrong about this, and I say that genuinely, not cynically.
I wouldn't take that as cynical coming from you. As someone else mentioned, I may disagree with you with some things (like the Inuit Art Centre), but you do provide a depth of reasoning to your arguments. Thank you.
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  #100  
Old Posted May 26, 2017, 7:43 PM
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$65 million to display a bunch of rocks. No wonder we are in such a mess.
Best post on this thread and I have nothing to add to it!
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