DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[Sam Hill]

Originally Posted by comoneymaker

If you have to order from the secret menu then it is trash to begin with. And if you like Smashburger you need a shovel to the head.

LOL! Calm down.

[jubguy3]

In N Out is not good. They keep distribution centers for each state but the consequence of that is that they don't really invest much into smaller distribution centers. I'm sure the problems won't be as bad for Colorado but everywhere I've eaten In N Out that isn't in Southern California has been really disappointing. You're really better going off to 5 Guys. I have eaten a better burger at a McDonalds in Qatar than I have in any of the Utah and Texas In N Outs. I'm not sure it will be any different for Colorado.

[TheNightfly]

This burger rivalry talk is a bunch of bullshit. I've eaten at 5 guys, In N Out, Smash, and Good Times and they all leave you feeling like shit 5 hours after you eat it. It's a last resort for me to go to any burger joint, especially these. I can tell you that they all equally make your hangover and gas worse. The regional loyalty people have for establishments is largely based on where they're from. Ask any Mick out of Boston what the best coffee is and they'll tell you with a straight face that it's Dunkin.

Does anyone have any interesting information that can distract us from this trivial conversation?

[RyanD]

Originally Posted by The Dirt

I looks like Block 176 (519 18th St.) is being actively marketed for redevelopment.

https://www.lee-associates.com/prope...Id=236207-sale
PDF: https://view.publitas.com/38608/3120...8ea3470d2b.pdf

Man those are some great photos of the property.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by RyanD

Man those are some great photos of the property.

Amazing what’s done with an iPhone X and Photo Lighting. Almost like one of Denver’s premier urban photographers took them.

[lumos]

I was walking back from the stunning female impressionists in Paris exhibition at the Art Museum and I grabbed a few shots with my iPhone X on the walk home. Sorry if you are tired of seeing a big cock in front of a government building.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Denver-20...MG_0137-XL.jpg

[TakeFive]

Colorado must be at the epicenter of End Times rumors as people are scurrying to get out of state in record numbers.
-- According to the Denver Post.

[enjo13]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Colorado must be at the epicenter of End Times rumors as people are scurrying to get out of state in record numbers.
-- According to the Denver Post.

I'm one of those.. a couple of days ago I moved to California. The reason isn't the high prices in Colorado (which aren't that high). It's that I quite literally doubled my salary to move here.

Colorado has a big labor issue. Prices are rising, but wages have barely budged. Since there are so few big economic anchors there is no one willing to pay for talent. Out of state companies are in Colorado to bargain shop. The lack of high earnings companies from the state means there just isn't much upward growth, despite very low unemployment. Companies simply do without rather than enter into a competitive labor market.

I hope it changes soon. Denver badly needs a homegrown economic power.

[CherryCreek]

Originally Posted by enjo13

I'm one of those.. a couple of days ago I moved to California. The reason isn't the high prices in Colorado (which aren't that high). It's that I quite literally doubled my salary to move here.

Colorado has a big labor issue. Prices are rising, but wages have barely budged. Since there are so few big economic anchors there is no one willing to pay for talent. Out of state companies are in Colorado to bargain shop. The lack of high earnings companies from the state means there just isn't much upward growth, despite very low unemployment. Companies simply do without rather than enter into a competitive labor market.

I hope it changes soon. Denver badly needs a homegrown economic power.

I think you are on to something there. The highest paid jobs tend to be at corporate headquarters, and Denver has long been short on those.

Would be nice if one of the many start ups here turned into a monster.

On the other hand, I think the current growth has been a bit too much too fast, so if prices and salaries slow it down some so we can catch our breath that's not all bad.

The other thing about Denver is that the huge price increases have impacted only part of the population: those who don't own. For the many residents that have owned property here before the current boom, there's been an increase in paper wealth, but no real increase in cost of living (other than real property taxes).

I have essentially the same mortgage payment I had 10 years ago, except it's smaller than what it was 10 years ago because i re-financed at below 3%. Thus the very modest increase in wages is fine. But for those entering the market the disparity between wages and housing costs is an increasing problem. That probably explains why Denver's ranking as a preferred place for millennials has been in decline.

[chickenbone]

I moved here from Chicago and am working remotely for the same company. The cost of things like groceries and gas is less expensive here. But the cost of housing is much higher, so much that my disposable income has gone down quite a bit. I've looked at other jobs here in Denver and the salaries are generally about 25-50% less than what I'm making now. I don't see how anyone can afford to live here without having multiple roommates or coming from a wealthy family. With the unemployment rate being so low you'd think companies would start raising salaries but that doesn't seem to be happening.

[Robert.hampton]

http://milehighcre.com/transactions-...k-of-11-27-17/

"Pinnacle Real Estate Advisors, LLC announced the sale of 1600-1608 East Colfax Avenue for $3,200,000. This property consists of two commercial buildings on approximately 11,250 square feet of C-MS-8 zoned land. Eric Shaw, Senior Advisor, represented the seller, Holleco LLP in the transaction."

Pretty huge lot they own now which includes the adjacent parking lot. All zoned for 8 stories. Will be interesting to see if we finally get a Colfax renaissance with the $100+ million in investments for the street from the GO bond. This and the mixed-use project down the street at the old smileys laundromat are a great step in that direction.

[CherryCreek]

Originally Posted by chickenbone

I moved here from Chicago and am working remotely for the same company. The cost of things like groceries and gas is less expensive here. But the cost of housing is much higher, so much that my disposable income has gone down quite a bit. I've looked at other jobs here in Denver and the salaries are generally about 25-50% less than what I'm making now. I don't see how anyone can afford to live here without having multiple roommates or coming from a wealthy family. With the unemployment rate being so low you'd think companies would start raising salaries but that doesn't seem to be happening.

Again, it's the difference between newly arriving renters or buyers vs. long time residents. The huge increase in housing has come since 2011.

For a taste of this check out this 2012 article bemoaning fact that single family housing prices have soared to a "record" of ................................................$250,000. (And average condos: $140,000).

http://www.denverpost.com/2012/11/08...w-inventories/

(and average rent: $978 - http://www.denverpost.com/2013/01/31...le-rents-soar/ )

If you bought an "average" Denver home in 2012 at $250,000 and refinanced when we hit record low interest rates (3% or lower) your monthly mortgage payment could easily be . ... below $1,000. ( If you bought an average condo and refinanced you could easily be paying in the $600-$700 monthly range).

If that's your world, then Denver is cheap as hell. Of course, that's not the world of people looking to buy or rent in 2017.

[mojiferous]

This is not your employers fault either - housing prices are increasing at rates that are far higher than the average raise. If you work for a company that can give 10+% annual increases in salaries across the board for inflation then you definitely have something to complain about... But I doubt that's the case. And the cost of doing that for existing employees is why you can't just change jobs in Denver and expect to magically make 2x as much.

Essentially - if you don't make enough to buy now you probably won't ever make enough until housing price increases slow enough for wage growth to catch up. And wage growth is always slow outside of industries with great demand. So all around this sucks.

[CastleScott]

^ I'll admit I sure wish I would have kept my condo in Castle Rock and rented it out (needed $$$ to pay down debts though), the housing here in Sac has gone up a lot since I moved here in April 15 as folks from the Bay are coming in droves.

As for Colorado wages-employers do have a rough time making folks happy-I think back to the booming 90s when things were doing great!

Oh btw as a 4th generation Colorado native I agree with this lady that said this to the post:

Nicole Parkin moved to Colorado from New Jersey in 2009, lured by a combination of “beauty and affordability.” On Friday night, she planned to start the long drive back, her Toyota Corolla loaded with personal belongings, a pet dog and a deep sense of resignation.

“The growth of our beautiful city has brought nothing but increased traffic, angry entitled transplants who have no respect, and a cost of living that is through the roof,” the former Aurora resident said.

Some of those new comers drove me nuts as well before I left (they were almost beyond annoying)..

[mr1138]

I've recently been reading the "What's the Matter with Portland" series of essays on StrongTowns, and he makes some compelling points. I'd be interested to hear some other peoples' opinions on the matter.

Insert Denver for Portland - it seems many of Marohn's discussion points still hold. Part II Distorting Housing Prices goes into depth about his theory that upzonings actually play a role in distorting the real estate market in boomtowns.

Skip to part IV, and he has an interesting proposal that zoning increases should be done in increments rather than massive jumps. While his idea to downzone doesn't seem like a great one to me (deliberately tanking some people's real estate valuation seems like it could trigger a recession), it does make me wonder if planners should take into consideration this theory when thinking about future upzonings. It also has gotten me wondering if allowing ADUs in (at least some) Single Family zones might be a meaningful change that could alter the economics leading people to scrape historic homes and replace them with McMansions, while also opening a new market for small housing units that aren't in giant new apartment complexes.

[The Dirt]

Nicole Parkin moved to Colorado from New Jersey in 2009, lured by a combination of “beauty and affordability.” On Friday night, she planned to start the long drive back, her Toyota Corolla loaded with personal belongings, a pet dog and a deep sense of resignation.

“The growth of our beautiful city has brought nothing but increased traffic, angry entitled transplants who have no respect, and a cost of living that is through the roof,” the former Aurora resident said.

There are so many layers of irony with this statement.

[rds70]

It looks like Denver will have another office tower rising soon. The permit for Block 162 was submitted today:

Project Log Number: 2017-LOG-0005992
Zoning Log Number:
Site Address and Description
675 15th St - 675 15th ST. - NEW COMMERCIAL MIXED USE IBC STRUCTURE
Application Status
Submission Date
12/04/2017 Zoning Application Date
Estimated App Review Date
Date Extended


As a side note, this article in the Colorado Real Estate Journal states that 1144 15th Street is 90% leased: https://crej.com/news/1144-fifteenth-birth-denver-icon/

[PLANSIT]

Originally Posted by rds70

It looks like Denver will have another office tower rising soon. The permit for Block 162 was submitted today:

Project Log Number: 2017-LOG-0005992
Zoning Log Number:
Site Address and Description
675 15th St - 675 15th ST. - NEW COMMERCIAL MIXED USE IBC STRUCTURE
Application Status
Submission Date
12/04/2017 Zoning Application Date
Estimated App Review Date
Date Extended

Looks to be 476'.

[transistor]

Originally Posted by The Dirt

There are so many layers of irony with this statement.

The most New Jersey thing I've seen in a while.

I really dont understand why people are so mad about transplants. Transplants are fine and make Colorado more dynamic and interesting. Most of the transplants I've met really enjoy the things that Colorado has to offer. The worst people in Colorado are Eastern Plains (Aurora and Parker included) and Western Slope natives. What a bunch of inbred hicks in their pickups and Real Tree camo.

[twister244]

Originally Posted by The Dirt

There are so many layers of irony with this statement.

THIS.

I get the frustration with how the Front Range is becoming unafordable for many. However, this person is just as much part of the problem as the next person that moves in tomorrow. If some of the numbers in the article are correct, then one would assume things will stabilize soon (assuming Amazon doesn't drop in). The fact of the matter is though that the secret is out about CO and I don't see it going back to the days of $800 rent ever again. In my opinion, it's a positive feedback that's occurring in Denver as the city is increasingly becoming attractive to companies and younger folks.

On a side note, it's great to see 162 moving forward!