Chinese Railways

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by Onn

Yeah, did anyone notice these stations are ungodly expensive? Where do you suspect the money is coming from when the history of high speed rail is largely non profitable. Can anyone say debt bomb? Never going to happen here, this is Dubai like development on steroids. It's not at all sustainable.

1. Costs: Look at the immediate costs associated with the Interstate and Defense Highway Act, adjust for inflation, and then tell me about the costs.

2. Profitability: Go look at the quarterly reports of the TGV, ICE, Shinkansen, TAV, and AVE. Now tell me it's not profitable.

These are baseless lies you're posting that every other poster here knows are lies. We take arguments like that and toss them into the junk heap. Because they're bullshit. And anyone with half a brain and an Internet connection can easily go look up the information that shows not only that these arguments are bullshit, but just why these arguments are bullshit. Capeesh?

[Onn]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

1. Costs: Look at the immediate costs associated with the Interstate and Defense Highway Act, adjust for inflation, and then tell me about the costs.

2. Profitability: Go look at the quarterly reports of the TGV, ICE, Shinkansen, TAV, and AVE. Now tell me it's not profitable.

These are baseless lies you're posting that every other poster here knows are lies. We take arguments like that and toss them into the junk heap. Because they're bullshit. And anyone with half a brain and an Internet connection can easily go look up the information that shows not only that these arguments are bullshit, but just why these arguments are bullshit. Capeesh?

Japan's high speed rail system cost a 200 billion dollar tax payer bailout, you’re crazy if you think anything else is going on here. I haven't seen one picture with these stations filled to capacity, all this stuff is brand new! China is a developing country where GDP per capita is far below western countries and Japan. Who has the money to ride these things? Use some common sense, my god.

[The Chemist]

Originally Posted by Onn

Japan's high speed rail system cost a 200 billion dollar tax payer bailout, you’re crazy if you think anything else is going on here. I haven't seen one picture with these stations filled to capacity, all this stuff is brand new! China is a developing country where GDP per capita is far below western countries and Japan. Who has the money to ride these things? Use some common sense, my god.

Yep, every time I've taken the high speed trains here in China, they've been empty because no one can afford them. Oh wait, no they haven/t. They've been full to the brim, just like every other mode of transportation in this country.

China's railway system is seriously overcrowded, and these new lines and stations are designed to add excess capacity and relieve some of the overcrowding. The reason these stations aren't full to capacity yet is because they are designed with the future in mind - i.e. to handle much more traffic than they will right at the start, so they don't need to be immediately expanded as traffic increases over the years. It's called future-proofing, and it's common with airport construction as well.

[Onn]

Originally Posted by The Chemist

Yep, every time I've taken the high speed trains here in China, they've been empty because no one can afford them. Oh wait, no they haven/t. They've been full to the brim, just like every other mode of transportation in this country.

Well please show us the pictures next time. I want to see what's going on.

China's railway system is seriously overcrowded, and these new lines and stations are designed to add excess capacity and relieve some of the overcrowding. The reason these stations aren't full to capacity yet is because they are designed with the future in mind - i.e. to handle much more traffic than they will right at the start, so they don't need to be immediately expanded as traffic increases over the years. It's called future-proofing, and it's common with airport construction as well.

I think your assuming a lot there. Personally I don't see how this is going to end well, investment in infrastructure projects in China has reached astronomical levels. But I'll leave it at that, we'll see what happens. Maybe you’re right.

[Jasonhouse]

Originally Posted by Onn

Yeah, did anyone notice these stations are ungodly expensive? Where do you suspect the money is coming from when the history of high speed rail is largely non profitable. Can anyone say debt bomb? Never going to happen here, this is Dubai like development on steroids. It's not at all sustainable.

wow, lol!.... Stick to politics kid, because transportation planning clearly isn't your thing.

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by Jasonhouse

wow, lol!.... Stick to politics kid, because transportation planning clearly isn't your thing.

Well, in the long run, since politicians have an ungodly amount of influence over what transportation plans are actually realized, I would feel far safer with him just being an industry quack (like Joel Kotkin).

[Onn]

Originally Posted by Jasonhouse

wow, lol!.... Stick to politics kid, because transportation planning clearly isn't your thing.

Well it's true, Reagan would not approve!

[GREENLION]

according to China MOR, take-up rate of some of the HSR lines are:

Beijing-Tianjin 75%
Zhengzhou-Xi'an 127.2%
Wuhan-Guangzhou 91.6%
Shanghai-Nanjing 120.3%
Jinan-Qingdao 70%
ShijiaZhuang-Taiyuan 90%
Hefei-Wuhan 90%
Wenzhou-Fuzhou 95%
Fuzhou-Xiamen 105.3%
Ningbo-Xiamen 100%+
Chengdu-Dujianyan unknown

[Onn]

Well just going on the evidence here...the amount of money that has gone into China's high speed rail has left every other high speed rail line in the world in the dust, which already were either slightly profitable or overwhelmingly not. This stuff is not at all cheap to build, run, or maintain. And the fact that they’re building these humongo terminals just makes it that much more risky. Think how much money it costs just to provide utilities for something like this? It has to be in the gazllions of dollars! These things make airline terminals look small. There is nothing I've read that's put a positive outlook on any of this yet. I think people are getting fooled by the beauty in assuming automatically this is going to catch on and be a huge success. I don’t see any success coming from these photos though. These terminals are so large they should be filled with passengers like all successful terminals are. They could be being built for the future, but today that would mean overcapacity. Until the capacity comes into line someone has to pay for the money to run them and for the massive loan that was taken out to build them.

[Rail>Auto]

AMAZING rail stations. Glad to see them getting built.

Quick question: Are these stations only compatible for HSR or can they handle Maglev rail too? I've been reading about the Chinese building Maglev rails too but I don't see any in these pictures.

[GREENLION]

Originally Posted by Rail>Auto

AMAZING rail stations. Glad to see them getting built.

Quick question: Are these stations only compatible for HSR or can they handle Maglev rail too? I've been reading about the Chinese building Maglev rails too but I don't see any in these pictures.

Most of these stations are for HSR only, and some of them could also used for pre-exsiting railways.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

2. Profitability: Go look at the quarterly reports of the TGV, ICE, Shinkansen, TAV, and AVE. Now tell me it's not profitable.

The accounting practices of European railroads would get you perp walked almost anywhere else on earth.

[GREENLION]

China's conventional high-speed railway network is made up of four components:
(1) upgraded pre-existing rail lines that can accommodate high-speed trains,
(2) a national grid of mostly passenger dedicated HSR lines (PDLs),
(3) other newly-built conventional rail lines, mostly in western China,
(4) "intercity" HSR lines. Newly built high speed linesthat not be included in PDL lines and Western China lines

upgraded rail lines
in April 18, 2007, some 6003 km of track could carry trains at speeds of up to 200 km/h, CRH trains started to service at these pre-existing lines:
Guangzhou - Shenzhen 146 km, CRH1A, Feb 1, 2007 Service speed 160km/h
Beijing-Guangzhou 2324 km, CRH2A,CRH5A first open April 18, 2007
Beijing-Harbin 1338 km, CRH2A, CRH2E,CRH5A first open April 18, 2007
Beijing-Shanghai 1463 km, CRH1B,CRH1E,CRH2A,CRH2E,CRH5A first open April 18, 2007
Shanghai-Kunming 2937 km, CRH1A,CRH1B,CRH2A,ARH2B first open April 18, 2007
Qingdao-Jinan 395.2 km, CRH2A, first open April 18, 2007
Lanzhou-Lianyungang 1759 km, CRH5A, first open April 18, 2007

National High-Speed Rail Grid (4+4 PDL's)

4 North-South lines

Beijing-Harbin (Jingha) PDL
(Beijing-Shenyang-Harbin)
Designed Speed 350km/h length 1700km ,set to open by 2012
includes:
Beijing - Shenyang 676km, set to open by 2012
Harbin - Dalian 904km, set to open by 2011
Panjin - Yingkou 90km, set to open by 2011, Connection line to Qinhuangdao-Shenyang PDL line.

Beijing-Hongkong (Jinggang) PDL
(Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Wuhan-Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hongkong)
Designed Speed 350km/h length 2260km ,set to open by 2015
includes
Beijing-Shijiazhuang 281 km, Set to open by December 31, 2011
Shijiazhuang-Wuhan 838 km,set to open by December 31, 2011
Wuhan-Guangzhou 968 km, opened by December 26, 2009, CRH2C,CRH3C
Guangzhou-Shenzhen 116km, set to open by December 28, 2010
Shenzhen-Hongkong 26km, designed speed 200km/h set to open by 2015

Beijing-Shanghai (Jinghu) PDL
Designed Speed 350km/h length 1318km ,set to open by 2011
includes
Beijing - Shanghai 1318 km, will be open by December 31,2011
Bengbu-Hefei 131 km, set to open by December 31,2011 designed speed 300km/h, Extends line of Jinghu PDL

Southeast Coastal HSR Corridor
(Hangzhou-Ningbo-Taizhou-Wenzhou-Fuzhou-Xiamen-Shenzhen)
Designed Speed 350km/h (Hangzhou-Ningbo) or 250km/h (other lines) length 1600km ,set to open by 2012
includes
Hangzhou-Ningbo 150km, set to open by December 27,2011
Ningbo-Taizhou-Wenzhou 268 km,(250km/h) Opened by September 28,2009 CRH1B,CRH1E ,CRH2A,CRH2B,CRH2E
Wenzhou-Fuzhou 29 8km, (250km/h) opened by September 28,2009 CRH1B,CRH1E,CRH2A,CRH2B,CRH2E
Fuzhou-Xiamen 273 km, (250km/h) opened by April 26,2010 CRH1B,CRH1E,CRH2A,CRH2E
Xiamen-Shenzhen 502km, (250km/h) Set to open by February,2012

4 West-East lines
Qingdao-Taiyuan (Qingtai) PDL
(Qingdao-Jinan-Shijiazhuang-Taiyuan)
Designed Speed 250km/h, length 770km ,set to open by 2012
includs
Qingdao-Jinan 364 km, opened by December 20, 2008 CRH2A
Shijiazhuang - Jinan 319 km, Set to open by 2012
Shijiazhuang-Taiyuan 225 km, Opened by April 1,2009, CRH5A

Xuzhou-Lanzhou (Xulan) PDL
(Xuzhou-Zhengzhou-Xi'an-Baoji-Lanzhou)
Designed Speed 350km/h, length 1363 km ,set to open by 2013
includs
Zhengzhou-Xuzhou 357 km, set to open by 2013
Zhengzhou-Xi'an 455 km, opened by February 6, 2010, CRH2C
Xi'an-Baoji 148 km, set to open by 2012
Baoji-Lanzhou 403 km, set to open by 2013

Shanghai-Wuhan-Chengdu (Huhanrong) HSR Corridor
(Shanghai-Nanjing-Hefei-Wuhan-Yichang-Chongqing-Lichuan-Chongqing)
Designed Speed 350km/h (Shanghai-Nanjing), 250 km/h (Hefei-Wuhan & Hefei-Nanjing), and 200 km/h (other), length 1600 km ,set to open by 2012
includes
Shanghai-Nanjing 301km, Opened by July 1, 2010 CRH1B,CRH2C,CRH3C
Hefei-Nanjing 166 km, Opened by April 19,2008 CRH1B,CRH2A,CRH2B,
Hefei-Wuhan 351km, Opened by April 1, 2009 CRH2A
Hankou-Yichang 293km, set to open by January 1 2012
Yichang-Wanzhou 377 km, set to open by November 30, 2010 at 160km/h
Lichuan-Chongqing 264 km, set to open by 2012
Suining-Chongqing Second line 132 km, set to open by January, 2012
Suining-Chengdu 148 km, (Part of Daning line) Opened by June 30,2010 CRH1A

Shanghai-Kunming (Hukun) PDL
(Shanghai-Hangzhou-Changsha-Kunming)
Designed Speed 350km/h, length 2080 km ,set to open by 2014
includes:
Shanghai-Hangzhou 158 km, set to open by October 1, 2010
Hangzhou - Changsha 933 km, set to open by July, 2013
Changsha - Kunming 1167 km, Set to open by 2014

InterCity HSR lines (Only Listed lines that already exists and planned to open before 2012):
Qinhuangdao-Shenyang PDL, total length 405 km, designed speed 250 km/h, Opened by October 12, 2002 CRH2A, CRH2E,CRH5A
Beijing-Tianjin Intercity Rail, 115 km, 350km/h opened by August 1,2008 CRH1E,CRH2A,CRH2E,CRH3C
Chengdu - Dujiangyan HSR, 65km, 200km/h opened by May 10,2010 CRH1A
Shanghai - Nanjing HSR, 196 km, 350km/h Opened by July 1, 2010, part of Huhanrongline CRH1B,CRH2C,CRH3C
Nanchang-Jiujiang 131 km, 200 km/h Set to open by 2010
Guangzhou-Zhuhai MRT 117 km, 200 km/h set to open by October 28, 2010
Hainan East Ring line 308 km, 250 km/h set to open by 2010
Changchun-Jilin 109 km, 250 km/h, set to open by 2010
Tianjin-Binhai 45km, 350 km/h, set to open by 2011
Tianjin-Qinhuangdao 261 km, 350 km/h Set to open by 2011
Guangzhou-Foshan-Zhaoqing MRT 87km, 200km/h, set to open by March 2011

"Other lines" (Only Listed lines that planned to open before 2012):
Longyan-Xiamen 171 km 200 km/h 2010
Nanchang-Putian 604 km 200 km/h Sepetember 2011
Maoming-Zhanjiang 103 km 200/h December 2011

[muppet]

Onn, you do realise every year China witnesses the biggest mass movements of humans in the world 3-400 million moving en masse, and mostly by long distance, high speed train. These are the scenes at the main railway termini every year, even with a strict system of pre-paid bookings:







This is why the rail termini are so large, to be able to handle crowds of a million

[Onn]

Originally Posted by muppet

Onn, you do realise every year China witnesses the biggest mass movements of humans in the world 3-400 million moving en masse, and mostly by long distance, high speed train. These are the scenes at the main railway termini every year, even with a strict system of pre-paid bookings:

What does that have to do with high-speed rail? 300 million people that are getting paid tiny amounts of money? 300 million people that have no social security or adequate medical care because that money went into high speed rail instead? Yeah, this is going to end well.

You'll see how everything really is soon enough.

[northbay]

Originally Posted by Onn

What does that have to do with high-speed rail? 300 million people that are getting paid tiny amounts of money? 300 million people that have no social security or adequate medical care because that money went into high speed rail instead? Yeah, this is going to end well.

You'll see how everything really is soon enough.

and what does THIS have to do with chinese railways?!

face it, a lot of americans are jealous that the chinese are building what we can only dream of... yes the chinese have huge social problems, but so do we and this is NOT the place to discuss them.

keep the pix coming people! this thread is great

[Jaroslaw]

Originally Posted by R@ptor

The new train stations are amazing, but are they all located in the inner cities?

Because that's what really sucks about Taiwan's new highspeed system. It shortened the travel time from Taipei to Kaohsiung from 5.5 to 1.5 hours, but a lot of the new stations are located 20 or even 25km away from the downtown area.

That's the thing, many of the stations are really far away from the center, because real estate speculation is part of the game... This was one of the main reasons for the massive popular protest in HK a few months ago against the new HSR link with the mainland: that because of the location of the terminals, total door to door travel time altogether would not get shortened at all. I travel from HK to Shantou sometimes, and I calculate that even when the new Shenzhen-Shantou HSR link is open next year, with the new Shenzhen station being so far away from HK, it will still be faster to take the direct bus to Shantou from HK Island.

Still, as I remember, at least the stations in Jinan, Nanjing and Shenzhen are quite close to the center.

[GREENLION]

HXD & HXN series "Harmony" locomotives for freight work

The HXD Series means electric locomotives.
The HXN series means diesel-electric locomotives




HXD1 Series

HXD1

Nickname River Crab

derived from Siemens EuroSprinter, manufacturer by Zhuzhou Electric Locomotive Co., Ltd. the first HXD1 was completed in November 11 2006, come into sercive at Datong-Qinhuangdao line, and the last was completed by November 2008, totally 220 HXD1 locomotives was built. top speed 120km/h, Power output 9,600 KW



HXD1B

Co'Co' EuroSprinter-based locomotives, manufacturer by Zhuzhou Electric Locomotive Co.,Ltd. the first HXD1B was completed in January 16 2009, come into sercive at Wuhan-Zhengzhou line, planned to built 500 HXD1B locomotives. top speed 120km/h, Power output 9,600 KW



HXD1C

Based on HXD1 & HXD1B, manufacturer by Zhuzhou Electric Locomotive Co., Ltd. the first HXD1C was completed in April 30 2009, come in to service on Chongqing - Chengdu line, planned to built 400 HXD1C locomotives. top speed 120km/h, Power output 7,200 Kw




HXD2 Series

HXD2

Nickname Hippo

derived from Alstom PRIMABB43700, manufacturer by Datong Electric Locomotive Co., Ltd. the first HXD2 was built by Alstom, completed in December 2006, arrived in China by January 21, 2007, come into sercive at Datong-Qinhuangdao line, totally 180 HXD2 locomotives was built. top speed 120km/h, Power output 10,000 Kw




HXD2B

derived from Alstom PRIMA6000 Co-Co, manufacturer by Datong Electric Locomotive Co., Ltd. the first HXD2B was built by Alstom, completed in 2009, the first China made HXD2B completed by May 24, 2010, will come into service between Beijing-Shanghai line, planned to built 500 HXD2B locomotives. top speed 120km/h, Power output 9,600 KW



HXD2C

HXD2C is the simplified version of HXD3C, manufacturer by Datong Electric Locomotive Co., Ltd. the first HXD2C completed by May 24, 2010, planned to built 220 HXD2C locomotives. top speed 120km/h, Power output 7,200kW




HXD3 Series

HXD3

Nickname Monkey

derived from CNR SSJ3 & Toshiba EH500, manufacturer by CNR Dalian Locomotive Co., Ltd. the first HXD3 was completed in 2006, first come into service between Beijing-Shanghai & Beijing - Guangzhou line, totally 1040 HXD3 locomotives has been built. top speed 120km/h, Power output 7,200 kW

HXD3 is also used as passenger locomotive






HXD3B

Nickname Gorilla

derived from Bombardier RE Kiruna, manufacturer by CNR Dalian Locomotive Co., Ltd. the first HXDB3 was completed by December 29 2008, planned to built 500 HXD3B locomotives. top speed 120km/h, Power output 9,600 kW





HXD3C

Based on HXD3 & HXD3B, manufacturer by CNR Dalian Locomotive Co., Ltd. the first HXD3C is set to be completed by November 2010, top speed 120km/h, Power output 7,200 kW





HXN series

HXN3 (US name JT56ACe)

Nickname American pie

Baed on EMD SD90MAC, Co-designed and built by EMD and Dalian Locomotive Co.,Ltd, the first HXN3 was completed by July 2, 2008, come in to service on Northeast lines, planned to built 300 HXN3 locomotives, top speed 120km/h, power output, 4,660 kW

The JT56ACe has achieved a first for EMD in the following areas:

•1st EMD locomotive contract in China
•1st 6,000 HP diesel-electric locomotive in China





HXN5 (US name ES59ACi)

Nickname Super horsepower

Baed on GE AC6000CW, Co-designed and built by GE Transportation Systems and Qishuyan Locomotive and Rolling Stock Co.,Ltd, the first HXN5 was completed by November 25, 2008, come in to service on Northeast lines, planned to built 300 HXN5 locomotives, top speed 120km/h, power output, 4,660 kW

[urbanfan89]

Originally Posted by Onn

What does that have to do with high-speed rail? 300 million people that are getting paid tiny amounts of money? 300 million people that have no social security or adequate medical care because that money went into high speed rail instead? Yeah, this is going to end well.

You'll see how everything really is soon enough.

And what is your solution to the problem of overcrowding on Chinese railways? Is it this?


http://tinatarnoff.typepad.com

[Pompuss]

Originally Posted by urbanfan89

And what is your solution to the problem of overcrowding on Chinese railways? Is it this?


http://tinatarnoff.typepad.com

Either it's some sort of expensive musical or we have some of the biggest idiots in the world.