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  #101  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2013, 7:17 AM
bigguy1231 bigguy1231 is offline
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Originally Posted by pEte fiSt iN Ur fAce View Post
^I get what you're saying but, quite frankly, we won't be eradicating poverty any time soon because, well, we're not even trying. There was a brief moment there, before most of us were born, when the wealth we created was distributed much more evenly than it is today. Those days are long gone and they're not coming back, so unless we go Communist tomorrow, poverty will continue to grow unabated until society ceases to function in the way we're accustomed. Perhaps then panhandling will be seen as a decent career choice, rather than the last resort that it is today.
Even then there were panhandlers in the streets. I remember seeing many more back in the 60's than I do now. Back then they were just referred to as bums. They used to line King St. with their cups every day. As a kid we just took a wide berth around them, but most adults just ignored them.
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  #102  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2013, 12:38 PM
HillStreetBlues HillStreetBlues is offline
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Originally Posted by thistleclub View Post
Also having flashbacks to the anti-swearing proposal.
I find the "broken window" theory of criminality pretty compelling, and I'd welcome a ban on profane or offensive language. This is not an issue of free speech: we accept other laws that curtail people's ability to say things that we generally find distasteful.

It is much more cost-effective to police the nuisance crimes that can lead to other criminal behaviour or cause to creat an environment in which criminality to thrive. It's wrong and even backwards to say that you have to eliminate the more serious crimes first. We should all pay more attention to those "petty" crimes like vandalism, littering, and even just anti-social behaviour like profane or disrespectful speech. If we collectively and individually send messages that these activities are unacceptable, fewer people will engage in them and then in turn engage in more serious crimes.

That having been said, I don't think this applies to panhandling. Begging in a respectful way doesn't impede anyone else.
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  #103  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2013, 4:07 PM
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Katrillion Katrillion is offline
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I'm a high school student and my friend group really aren't afraid to go downtown but it is so dirty and gross there. I know half the population at my school would rather go to the Ancaster Meadowlands Power Centre.
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  #104  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2013, 5:15 PM
HillStreetBlues HillStreetBlues is offline
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Originally Posted by Katrillion View Post
I'm a high school student and my friend group really aren't afraid to go downtown but it is so dirty and gross there. I know half the population at my school would rather go to the Ancaster Meadowlands Power Centre.
They are afraid of going downtown, and the reason is because it is so dirty and gross. And they're not wrong to be afraid, because unpleasant situations including crime are a lot more likely to happen in places that are dirty and gross.

If we cleaned up the streets, both the risks and as importantly the perceived risks would go down, and their preferences would change.
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  #105  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2013, 7:33 PM
movingtohamilton movingtohamilton is offline
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Originally Posted by hillstreetblues View Post
...if we cleaned up the streets, both the risks and as importantly the perceived risks would go down, and their preferences would change.
^ +1
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  #106  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2013, 1:28 AM
thistleclub thistleclub is offline
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Perception/Reality

Five downtown areas of concern as captured in the Hamilton Police Services' An Overview of Violence-Prone Areas in Hamilton: Three Years Later:

Frequency of Violent Calls-For-Service
Hess Village 11 (2009) / 15 (2012) = +36.4%
Jackson Square/Gore Park/King William 85 (2009) / 67 (2012) = -21.2%
James North/Ferguson North 72 (2009) / 47 (2012) = -34.7%
Sanford/Tisdale 76 (2009) / 59 (2012) = -22.4%
Wellington/West 17 (2009) / 19 (2012) = +11.8%


Frequency of Assault Calls-For-Service
Hess Village 57 (2009) / 55 (2012) = -3.5%
Jackson Square/Gore Park/King William 133 (2009) / 96 (2012) = -27.8%
James North/Ferguson North 158 (2009) / 137 (2012) = -13.3%
Sanford/Tisdale 75 (2009) / 56 (2012) = -25.3%
Wellington/West 28 (2009) / 20 (2012) = -28.6%


Frequency of Robbery Calls-For-Service
Hess Village 4 (2009) / 3 (2012) = -25.0%
Jackson Square/Gore Park/King William 31 (2009) / 19 (2012) = -38.7%
James North/Ferguson North 29 (2009) / 14 (2012) = -51.7%
Sanford/Tisdale 32 (2009) / 20 (2012) = -37.5%
Wellington/West 10 (2009) / 5 (2012) = -50.0%
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Last edited by thistleclub; Jul 8, 2013 at 3:13 PM.
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  #107  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2013, 12:49 PM
movingtohamilton movingtohamilton is offline
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Thanks for posting this. The decline in frequency for all calls in the JS/GP/KW zone stands out. Now the challenge: focusing on the perceived risks noted by hillstreetblues.

My middle-class bias will be obvious: continued private-sector investment in that zone will attract people with money to spend. Intensification of "live, work, play" opportunities.

"Dirty and gross" can be replaced with "destination". From the historical photos posted, this once was a vibrant area. It can be again.
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  #108  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2013, 3:40 PM
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Katrillion Katrillion is offline
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Let's put a louis vuitton downtown then see what happens lol
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  #109  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2013, 4:12 PM
HillStreetBlues HillStreetBlues is offline
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Anyone want to organize some litter clean-ups on certain downtown blocks? We may not have to do it forever.

For a few months, I've been making a more conscious effort to clean up trash on my street (it isn't a long street) and the park across the way. I am increasingly convinced that the frequency of it is starting to decline.
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  #110  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2013, 4:16 PM
movingtohamilton movingtohamilton is offline
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Which blocks?

Also, can we get some tobacco companies to sponsor ashtrays downtown? The butt problem is seriously out of control.
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  #111  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2013, 4:17 PM
movingtohamilton movingtohamilton is offline
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Katrillion, how about an Abercrombie & Fitch too?
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  #112  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2013, 4:48 PM
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Jon Dalton Jon Dalton is offline
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What exactly does dirty and gross mean? Is it literally dirty as in litter and air quality, or just a perception based on the types of people and businesses around? Is it both?

It's about the destinations. All cities have panhandlers, cigarette butts and the odd bit of vomit in their downtowns. But put a Gap and Old Navy here, maybe a few others, and watch how fast high school girls stop calling downtown gross.
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  #113  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2013, 5:18 PM
HillStreetBlues HillStreetBlues is offline
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Originally Posted by movingtohamilton View Post
Which blocks?
I wouldn't know. My instinct would be to choose relatively busy ones that are not huge, and not too thick with it. More ash trays would be a great idea.

Even if it is about the destinations, those businesses locate where their users are at least as much as their users are attracted to them. Old Navy know where their client base are not, and won't risk investment there. Plus, it has employees and executives and those people don't like going downtown if they can help it, either.

Katrillion, what is your peers' definition of dirty and gross?
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  #114  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2013, 6:00 PM
movingtohamilton movingtohamilton is offline
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...It's about the destinations. All cities have panhandlers, cigarette butts and the odd bit of vomit in their downtowns...
Absolutely agree. But great cities have density in their core areas. When there is life on the streets day and night, with loads of people of all descriptions out and about, city life is at its best. There is balance between the most and least desirable elements.

Downtown Hamilton has a long way to go, to achieve this.
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  #115  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2013, 8:35 PM
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Katrillion Katrillion is offline
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By dirty and gross, I mean everyone at my school thinks that it smells like cigarettes, countless number of people look like bums, and really...the crowd is just really...different? Lol.

A Gap would cater to moms lol. Brandy Melville, Urban Outfitters, American Apparel, Forever 21, H&M, Zara would be adequate if you want a younger crowd. I don't see a store like any of these coming to downtown in my lifetime hahaha. Maybe H&M...
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  #116  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2013, 2:49 AM
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Dr Awesomesauce Dr Awesomesauce is online now
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We did have retailers of that ilk not long ago in Jacks-off Square and the Eat Me Centre - sorry for the off-colour humour, but I gotta be me. And in those days (1980s), the city centre was more dangerous than it is today. I don't have the numbers to back up that claim but I'm sure there were many more incidents of violent crime in the core and city wide than we have today. I recall gangs of teens roving the downtown looking for trouble. They used to wait outside the cinema on the Jackson Square rooftop and swarm you and your buddies if you weren't careful. It happened to me three different times and I recall the police telling me not to come downtown anymore - probably good advice. Would that happen today? No bloody way! Downtown's issues are based on perception, not fact.
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  #117  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2013, 4:42 PM
bigguy1231 bigguy1231 is offline
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Originally Posted by Katrillion View Post
By dirty and gross, I mean everyone at my school thinks that it smells like cigarettes, countless number of people look like bums, and really...the crowd is just really...different? Lol.

A Gap would cater to moms lol. Brandy Melville, Urban Outfitters, American Apparel, Forever 21, H&M, Zara would be adequate if you want a younger crowd. I don't see a store like any of these coming to downtown in my lifetime hahaha. Maybe H&M...
Variety is the spice of life, just because people look differently from you doesn't mean they are different. As a people watcher I love going downtown just to see the differences.
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