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  #221  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2019, 3:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Eh, I would say that Philly and NY have somewhat similar development patterns. Of course NY is much denser, bigger and more apartment-oriented, but the metropolitan development patterns aren't THAT much different.

A town on the Main Line doesn't look that different from Westchester/Fairfield, South Philly doesn't look that different from Brooklyn, Rittenhouse Square could vaguely be some core neighborhood of NYC, etc. Of course if you know the two cities well the differences are obvious, but to outsiders Philly is kind of a grittier NYC mini-me.
There are certainly similarities, as any cities of the age and in the region, have. I'm not suggesting that they are so vastly different that they look starkly opposite from each other or anything. They both developed dense laid-out grids (Philly 100 years earlier though, and featuring a central square with axial routes radiating out). However, if you look at the historical urban development of NYC and Philly through the 19th century, you do see significant differing patterns.

Philly was laid out as Penn's "greene country towne" from the jump, with settlers receiving 3 tracts (a city lot for living/commercial activity, a country lot for farming, and an industrial lot in between -- in "The Liberties"). And there were planned radial Pikes emanating out from the center city hub, which connected distant agricultural lands with the city. This fact, more than anything else, determined how Philadelphia would develop in the hub AND along those spokes from a very early period in its history. In effect, because of this hub & spoke design laid out over available land, Philadelphia became quite "suburban" for the time.

NYC had nothing like this. It was an island without a connecting "highway" network. Remember, NYC was Manhattan (and a small part of the Bronx) until the turn of the 20th century. Its grid was not laid out until 1811, with NYC basically just being cramped below 14th. But then, it exploded with intense development to go from 60k in population to almost 2M... and that's before it added Brooklyn and Queens. The very high density development of multi-story apartment buildings, boarding houses, tenements, and commercial structures, etc. to handle that explosive growth and jam that many people onto the island reflect the era. NYC "filled up" the entire island with a type of urban density not seen before.
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  #222  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2019, 3:45 PM
JAYNYC JAYNYC is offline
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I agree with this ^ assessment.
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  #223  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2019, 3:50 PM
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Originally Posted by JAYNYC View Post
I agree with this ^ assessment.
Well, I can't take credit for the assessment... it's just me repeating historical facts.
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  #224  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2019, 4:36 PM
JAYNYC JAYNYC is offline
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
Well, I can't take credit for the assessment... it's just me repeating historical facts.
Understood, and that's much more reasonable than someone pushing the false narrative that Philly and NYC exhibit the same development patterns.
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  #225  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2019, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
The Phoenix light rail has been a massive success far exceeding their highest estimations when they built it and drawing hundreds of billions of private development dollars along its length
Right but two things here:

initial ridership estimates though important I don't find very reliable to determine a routes success and arguable quite then contrary. A ridership projection that was mediocre to being with translates into success for having ridership that pales in comparison to established cities with mass transit or what about a more apples to apples comparison and holding Phoenix to cities like Milwaukee, Dallas, Denver, Minneapolis, etc?

Regarding the development, I can't help but wonder if this development would have happened anyways elsewhere and what the percentage of people that live in these new developments(often rather wealthy people) actually use the transit for daily commutes. If this rail was simply built as a real estate tool than fine it's successful but not to the tune of a truly functioning mass transit system. That statement becomes even more true if the gentrification caused by the rail lines pushes the lower income residents away who might have been more likely to ride the rail. Was any of this studied and factored into calling this rail line a success?

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Originally Posted by PHX31 View Post
Just FYI, the light rail at intersections in Phoenix has traffic signal priority, so the theory is it doesn't have to stop (or should have to stop fewer times and for less time than a car would). It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing when there is no grade separation (obviously that's not gonna happen, it's way more expensive).
But the trains still run slower due to being at grade no? Having a train on a viaduct or tunnel would allow for quicker end to end travel times.
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  #226  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2019, 10:47 AM
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Agree to disagree. I was in Phoenix for the first time for Memorial Day and it's not the same. Is downtown LA small for it's metro? Yes, but LA's "core" is really Wilshire all the way towards Santa Monica . It's not just some pocket bounded by those freeways. If you want to look at like that, you have to remember things like the Fashion District, the historic core, Little Tokyo, the Arts District are in that pocket, all which are vibrant compared to sunbelt cities. Even when downtown "sucked", these places still had energy to them, mostly because of LA's huge population. There's just more going on and new development these days.

That said, I liked some things about Phoenix. I would visit once a year or so. Just not in the summer lol. It's def the largest/most urban southwest city and has it's own feel.
I guess it's all in perspective. I would be inclined to agree with you. I am constantly surprised how active and massive DTLA is and it's footprint of vibrancy is expanding rapidly. I do believe those who think DTLA is weak either don't take into account the nature of LA itself or haven't been there in awhile as I've only been here for 5 years but even in that time it is has grown a pretty good clip.
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  #227  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2019, 2:16 PM
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Originally Posted by plutonicpanda View Post
Right but two things here:

initial ridership estimates though important I don't find very reliable to determine a routes success and arguable quite then contrary. A ridership projection that was mediocre to being with translates into success for having ridership that pales in comparison to established cities with mass transit or what about a more apples to apples comparison and holding Phoenix to cities like Milwaukee, Dallas, Denver, Minneapolis, etc?
Phoenix's light rail has higher ridership per mile than Dallas and Denver... and Portland and San Diego and Salt Lake City. An even better comparison would be to compare ridership per mile with systems similar in overall length. In that case, Phoenix is below Minneapolis, essentially the same as Houston, and higher than Charlotte.

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Originally Posted by plutonicpanda View Post
But the trains still run slower due to being at grade no? Having a train on a viaduct or tunnel would allow for quicker end to end travel times.
This is very true, however, very few cities can support or justify the insanely higher costs of doing this. My point is the light rail mostly has at grade intersections with vehicular traffic, yeah, but it's not like that's the end of the story... things have been done to prioritize the train.
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  #228  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2019, 2:51 PM
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Originally Posted by plutonicpanda View Post
I guess it's all in perspective. I would be inclined to agree with you. I am constantly surprised how active and massive DTLA is and it's footprint of vibrancy is expanding rapidly. I do believe those who think DTLA is weak either don't take into account the nature of LA itself or haven't been there in awhile as I've only been here for 5 years but even in that time it is has grown a pretty good clip.
There seems to be way more activity than five years ago. I think people would be surprised how busy the historic core areas are on a weekend, which is when I visit. More international newspapers are discovering downtown LA (Cape Town's newspaper this week was impressed, for example) as a destination on it's own. The NY Times is always discussing downtown's progress.
I think as Broadway continues it's gentrification, you'll see more attention .

Downtown will never fully representt LA's population, but to me, between downtown LA and Santa Monica does and it's pretty awesome.
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  #229  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2019, 3:39 PM
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Originally Posted by PHX31 View Post
Phoenix's light rail has higher ridership per mile than Dallas and Denver... and Portland and San Diego and Salt Lake City. An even better comparison would be to compare ridership per mile with systems similar in overall length. In that case, Phoenix is below Minneapolis, essentially the same as Houston, and higher than Charlotte.
Wow, that is interesting to know. Had no idea. Maybe I rode it on an off day.



Quote:
Originally Posted by PHX31 View Post
This is very true, however, very few cities can support or justify the insanely higher costs of doing this. My point is the light rail mostly has at grade intersections with vehicular traffic, yeah, but it's not like that's the end of the story... things have been done to prioritize the train.
I understand the cost aspect. I do think Phoenix at the very least should study the costs and what parts of the system would be justified in grade separation.
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  #230  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2019, 3:44 PM
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Originally Posted by LA21st View Post
There seems to be way more activity than five years ago. I think people would be surprised how busy the historic core areas are on a weekend, which is when I visit. More international newspapers are discovering downtown LA (Cape Town's newspaper this week was impressed, for example) as a destination on it's own. The NY Times is always discussing downtown's progress.
I think as Broadway continues it's gentrification, you'll see more attention .

Downtown will never fully representt LA's population, but to me, between downtown LA and Santa Monica does and it's pretty awesome.
DTLA has a healthy population, IMO. I have a place in the arts district and it is steadily increasing in activity. The Historic Core is on fire. They just need to do something about the homeless as it is out of control. I do NOT envy the nighttime security guards at the LA Cafe.
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  #231  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2019, 4:16 PM
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No doubt. It's my least favorite thing here, but I never feel threatened or harassed really. But, the city does need to do something. We'll see.
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  #232  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2019, 4:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Eh, I would say that Philly and NY have somewhat similar development patterns. Of course NY is much denser, bigger and more apartment-oriented, but the metropolitan development patterns aren't THAT much different.
Agreed. Also, it wasn't until the latter half of the 19th century that New York really started to pull away from Philadelphia. Both cities were well over 200 years old by then. But just about any building in New York today that predates the Civil War would not look out of place in Philadelphia.
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  #233  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2019, 4:50 PM
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No doubt. It's my least favorite thing here, but I never feel threatened or harassed really. But, the city does need to do something. We'll see.
I can't say I've ever felt threatened. I've been screamed at by tweakers at MacArthur Park but nothing serious.
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  #234  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2019, 11:56 PM
muertecaza muertecaza is online now
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Originally Posted by plutonicpanda View Post
Wow, that is interesting to know. Had no idea. Maybe I rode it on an off day.



I understand the cost aspect. I do think Phoenix at the very least should study the costs and what parts of the system would be justified in grade separation.
Yeah, it's too bad the old ValTrans initiative that would have kickstarted rail transit in Phoenix in 1989 failed--it would have built elevated trains. It was planned to build out 100 miles of trains by 2019.
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  #235  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2019, 12:46 AM
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Agreed. Also, it wasn't until the latter half of the 19th century that New York really started to pull away from Philadelphia. Both cities were well over 200 years old by then. But just about any building in New York today that predates the Civil War would not look out of place in Philadelphia.
I was all over Philadelphia today. I was all over New York today.

Philadelphia and New York are nothing alike, from a development perspective.
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  #236  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2019, 5:05 AM
Obadno Obadno is online now
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If you really think Philly and New York are too dissimilar because Philly was slightly more agriculturally focused 300 years ago than NYC, then we cant really compare any city to any.

This is totally asinine, NYC and Philly are east coast port cities that developed only 100 miles apart They experienced the same growth pressures over the same exact period of time with constant interaction in every conceivable way.

This thread is thoroughly derailed and reduced to nonsense.
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  #237  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2019, 1:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
If you really think Philly and New York are too dissimilar because Philly was slightly more agriculturally focused 300 years ago than NYC, then we cant really compare any city to any.

This thread is thoroughly derailed and reduced to nonsense.
Great observation. Remember a few months ago when many people were comparing Houston to Los Angeles? Lol.
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  #238  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2019, 2:43 PM
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Originally Posted by JAYNYC View Post
I was all over Philadelphia today. I was all over New York today.

Philadelphia and New York are nothing alike, from a development perspective.
No similarities whatsoever? Seriously?

So what U.S. city looks more like NYC than Philly? San Diego? Orlando?

They're an hour apart, they're both old East Coast cities that boomed during the same period, they're both characterized by tight historic urban landscapes of small blocks and leafy classic railroad suburbs. Same climate, same attitude, same general ethnic mix.

The major difference is that NYC is much bigger, denser and more cosmopolitan. But Center City is probably the closest thing to a Manhattan mini-me within the U.S., South Philly the closest thing to Brooklyn, and the Main Line the closest thing to a Westchester-Fairfield.
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  #239  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2019, 3:38 PM
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Originally Posted by JAYNYC View Post
I was all over Philadelphia today. I was all over New York today.

Philadelphia and New York are nothing alike, from a development perspective.
Maybe you're blind.
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  #240  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2019, 3:45 PM
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Philadelphia or New York? https://goo.gl/maps/36mwzWKjEYxS6C9d7

Philadelphia or New York? https://goo.gl/maps/tZgE2pMC5Z4FSHu37
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