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  #61  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2017, 9:35 PM
exit2lef exit2lef is offline
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Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post

There will be more residents with cars than they will have spaces for, there will be visitors with cars, and there will be service people with cars. There will be more cars than spaces, that cannot be argued as it is not my opinion or speculation, it's an absolute inevitability. Between ASU and local businesses along with all of the new apartments in the area, parking is already at a premium. Matt's Big Breakfast, The Velo, and Cobra all struggle daily with people parking in their lots and disappearing, do you think building an apartment structure with too few spaces will help that matter or make it worse?
It will probably be neutral and may even improve the situation. If there are Derby residents who own cars but who do not secure parking spaces on property, they are going to be few in number and most likely looking for overnight parking -- not parking during prime business hours. I assume / hope most of those businesses secure their small lots when closed.

Besides, the lots associated with those businesses are so small that most customers are already parking on the street, if they arrive by car at all. Many businesses in the area such as Short Leash, Moira, Pomo, Milk Bar, and the Breadfruit don't have any parking lots of their own, yet they seem to be doing well.

The possible improvement will come if more customers of those businesses, enticed by all that's going on Downtown, decide to live within walking / bicycling distance of their favorite places, eliminating their need to drive to these destinations and possibly even their desire to own cars in the first place.

Finally, it astonishes me that someone in a forum devoted to urban development thinks that it's automatically bad to have more cars than spaces. In fact, that's often a sign of a successful urban neighborhood worth visiting. It's a long read, but I strongly suggest Donald Shoup's "the High Cost of Free Parking" for a good explanation of some of these concepts.
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  #62  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2017, 10:14 PM
biggus diggus biggus diggus is offline
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I wouldn't think it is a bad move to build a tower with a light amount of parking if this were Chicago, NYC, etc. but as a phoenix native who has been downtown for well over a decade, I know that people around here have cars and the reality is there needs to be a place to keep them. The people visiting them have cars and their vendors have cars.

For the sake of this conversation I'm trying to distinguish between what I'd ultimately enjoy seeing (a neighborhood full of walkers, cyclists, and no need for much parking) and the reality of what the city's inhabitants will require (a place to put their car). What you're describing is this ideal world that doesn't yet exist and is probably a number of years away from even being possible.

Anyway, I'm just parroting what the guys in the neighborhood are complaining about, 99% of the thoughts I've shared in this thread aren't my own opinions I'm just providing some insight to those who I know are interested in knowing why things are at a stand still. Finally, it astonishes me that someone in a forum devoted to urban development is so willing to turn a blind eye to the worry that is in the mind of the local business owners who were pioneers in the neighborhood and helped sculpt it into what it is today. Losing a patio for two years that represents approx. 40% of the capacity of a business is potentially fatal to the business and it's chalked up to a "casualty" because everyone wants to see a crane in the sky.

Hard to take a side on this one.
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  #63  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2017, 10:53 PM
exit2lef exit2lef is offline
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Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post
I wouldn't think it is a bad move to build a tower with a light amount of parking if this were Chicago, NYC, etc. but as a phoenix native who has been downtown for well over a decade, I know that people around here have cars and the reality is there needs to be a place to keep them. The people visiting them have cars and their vendors have cars.

For the sake of this conversation I'm trying to distinguish between what I'd ultimately enjoy seeing (a neighborhood full of walkers, cyclists, and no need for much parking) and the reality of what the city's inhabitants will require (a place to put their car). What you're describing is this ideal world that doesn't yet exist and is probably a number of years away from even being possible.

Anyway, I'm just parroting what the guys in the neighborhood are complaining about, 99% of the thoughts I've shared in this thread aren't my own opinions I'm just providing some insight to those who I know are interested in knowing why things are at a stand still. Finally, it astonishes me that someone in a forum devoted to urban development is so willing to turn a blind eye to the worry that is in the mind of the local business owners who were pioneers in the neighborhood and helped sculpt it into what it is today. Losing a patio for two years that represents approx. 40% of the capacity of a business is potentially fatal to the business and it's chalked up to a "casualty" because everyone wants to see a crane in the sky.

Hard to take a side on this one.
The so-called "ideal world" will never exist if we keep postponing it indefinitely in the name of a self-perpetuating stereotype of Phoenix as a "car town." Keep building parking and it may very well stay that way forever. Have the vision to limit parking, and then change may happen over time.

Patios are a completely separate issue. As I said earlier, that may be a legitimate concern.
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  #64  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2017, 11:20 PM
exit2lef exit2lef is offline
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Shifting from the issue of parking, on which biggus & I will most likely never agree, to patios, I have a question:

Is there some safety concern that will require closure of the Angels Trumpet patio during construction, or is there simply a perception that customers won't want to be on the patio if there's construction next door? Personally, I'd love to sit on that patio enjoying a beer and some brisket while cheering the crane.
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  #65  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2017, 11:42 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by exit2lef View Post
Shifting from the issue of parking, on which biggus & I will most likely never agree, to patios, I have a question:

Is there some safety concern that will require closure of the Angels Trumpet patio during construction, or is there simply a perception that customers won't want to be on the patio if there's construction next door? Personally, I'd love to sit on that patio enjoying a beer and some brisket while cheering the crane.
Yeah cant they just set up scaffolding like they do for sidewalks?
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  #66  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2017, 11:52 PM
ASU Diablo ASU Diablo is online now
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Yeah cant they just set up scaffolding like they do for sidewalks?
That's what I'm thinking too. Plus let's not kid ourselves...summer is right around the corner. No one wants to be in that patio when it's still 100s in summer nights
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  #67  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2017, 11:56 PM
exit2lef exit2lef is offline
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Originally Posted by airomero83 View Post
That's what I'm thinking too. Plus let's not kid ourselves...summer is right around the corner. No one wants to be in that patio when it's still 100s in summer nights
And if the patio is the only seating available on a hot day, the scaffolds and the new building itself might provide some shade.
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  #68  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2017, 11:57 PM
biggus diggus biggus diggus is offline
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
Yeah cant they just set up scaffolding like they do for sidewalks?
Set up scaffolding where? It's a zero lot line building so the scaffolding will be over Angel's Trumpet's building and patio.
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  #69  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2017, 6:15 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post
Set up scaffolding where? It's a zero lot line building so the scaffolding will be over Angel's Trumpet's building and patio.
yes exactly over the patio
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  #70  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2017, 7:37 PM
RonnieFoos RonnieFoos is offline
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
yes exactly over the patio
It's a forgone conclusion that some type of scaffolding and also the crane will be over Angels Trumpet at some point. As someone mentioned before, I believe the city has some kind of zoning adjustment to allow this to happen during construction...unless they come up with a magical way to place glass and façade onto the North side of Derby with not even an inch of encroachment over Angels...
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  #71  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2017, 12:44 AM
RonnieFoos RonnieFoos is offline
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Went by Derby and it looks like the lot has been gravel-filled and they appear to be preparing to rebuild the sidewalks. I'm wondering if this means Derby is on hold or cancelled due to the lawsuit?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but they wouldn't be building sidewalks first before building a highrise, right?
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  #72  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2017, 3:15 AM
PHXFlyer11 PHXFlyer11 is offline
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Originally Posted by RonnieFoos View Post
Went by Derby and it looks like the lot has been gravel-filled and they appear to be preparing to rebuild the sidewalks. I'm wondering if this means Derby is on hold or cancelled due to the lawsuit?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but they wouldn't be building sidewalks first before building a highrise, right?
Doesn't make sense to me. Why would they not just halt work? Why would they build the sidewalks and fill the hole, spending more money to do so. You could say they are giving up on the project, but I doubt it's that easy. The money they have already invested is significant. I doubt they be able to sell the land profitability now know that the neighbor is going to object to anything that is build next door which requires enough density to justify the price of the land.

Then again, I think we've I'll learned here, some of the developers are less than genius and don't often make the best decisions.
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  #73  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2017, 3:27 AM
biggus diggus biggus diggus is offline
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Gravel fill is not abnormal, it's often compacted into the dirt to create a more stable platform. I expect to next see drilling, remember there's not going to be a below grade floor in this building.
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  #74  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2017, 5:46 AM
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Prestige Worldwide Prestige Worldwide is offline
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The project is on hold. It's not dead, but work won't be moving forward right now. Maybe in a couple months.
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  #75  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2017, 1:00 PM
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KEVINphx KEVINphx is offline
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Originally Posted by Prestige Worldwide View Post
The project is on hold. It's not dead, but work won't be moving forward right now. Maybe in a couple months.
Just a heads-up but people here will not take your authoritative assertion as anything more than your opinion unless you can provide a little more detail/insight where you are coming from.

Unless this is just your opinion.
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  #76  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2017, 1:41 PM
biggus diggus biggus diggus is offline
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Exactly, what's your source? Because it doesn't match what my sources say, and they're pretty damn good on this topic.

Not that I'm one to argue with Dale and Brennan, especially when the past information posted by this user has been spot on.
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Last edited by biggus diggus; Mar 22, 2017 at 3:30 PM.
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  #77  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2017, 10:26 PM
biggus diggus biggus diggus is offline
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The fence has been removed and the section of paved alley as well as the sidewalks they tore up have been replaced, this is consistent with a scrapped project and aligns with the city's requirements to put it back as they found it.

Word is the numbers don't work with no GPLET and it looks like the GPLET program is about to see a serious change in policy. I consider this one dead unless something crazy happens.

Prestige Worldwide is obviously on top of things.
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  #78  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2017, 10:33 PM
ASU Diablo ASU Diablo is online now
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Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post
The fence has been removed and the section of paved alley as well as the sidewalks they tore up have been replaced, this is consistent with a scrapped project and aligns with the city's requirements to put it back as they found it.

Word is the numbers don't work with no GPLET and it looks like the GPLET program is about to see a serious change in policy. I consider this one dead unless something crazy happens.

Prestige Worldwide is obviously on top of things.
what a f*cking disappointment

Wonder what this means for Circles project and if the fear of another lawsuit over GPLET use signals its doom and demo.
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  #79  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2017, 10:40 PM
biggus diggus biggus diggus is offline
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My guess is it will have a trickle-down effect on high rise development, building with sticks at a maximum height of 5 floors is still fairly inexpensive.
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  #80  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2017, 12:30 AM
Phxguy Phxguy is offline
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Sad to think some people will consider retaining dirt lots as "preserving the character" of Roosevelt Row and a victory overall. This is such a backwards mentality to have in a booming time like this.

I don't want to be a Debby-downer, but I hope this won't prevent any further high-rise developments.
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