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  #321  
Old Posted May 22, 2018, 1:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post
Definitely some rose colored glasses and moving of the goal posts going on here.

Just a few comments I want to say:

Been throughout western and Northern Europe and suburbia there is not so much better than suburbia in metro-Van (again, talking about new suburbia, not urban infill or older towns) as people are trying to paint it on here. There are shit developments and nicer developments in Europe as well.

And I don’t understand the criticism towards the Newport example. Have to cross a major road, drive, or take a train to access stores beyond those in the local community? This is no different than anything I have witnessed in most European or Asian suburbs (and even urban areas)... And yes, even in Europe the retail in newer developments tend to be chains, at least at first. Eventually, just like in Vancouver, as a development ages more local eateries and stores establish themselves.

If you really want to see the worst of both worlds regarding towers in the suburbs, come to Japan, China, or Korea. Here, you will literally have a single 12 story residential tower surrounded with a parking lot and then surrounded by rice fields... Oh, and the roads have no sidewalks and a lot of cars. Did I mention that these roads are barely wide enough for two cars to pass each other? Makes going for a jog really exciting. Of course not everywhere is this poorly planned, but you would be surprised how much of this awfulness there is. It makes Metrotown or Brentwood look like an urban utopia of built form and services.

This forum is funny when it gets a little too self hating...
I myself am very critical of North American urbanism most of the time, but it's also worth mentioning that lots of people from the countries you mentioned move here and seem quite content living in our form(s) of urbanism. I don't think most of them move here just for that but I will say that the number of immigrants who've told me one of the things they like most about Canada is the personal space (read = SFH with garage, yard, pool, etc.) is much much higher than those who criticize the way we build our cities.

This includes many people who come from countries that are the poster children for what is considered some of the most desirable urbanism in the world.
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  #322  
Old Posted May 22, 2018, 1:11 PM
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Definitely. I feel there is a considerable amount of novelty / "the grass is always greener on the other side" occurring in both directions regarding urban / suburban form and living that does cloud critical judgement somewhat.

Also it is true that idea of "desirable urbanism" changes throughout the world.
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  #323  
Old Posted May 22, 2018, 1:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I myself am very critical of North American urbanism most of the time, but it's also worth mentioning that lots of people from the countries you mentioned move here and seem quite content living in our form(s) of urbanism. I don't think most of them move here just for that but I will say that the number of immigrants who've told me one of the things they like most about Canada is the personal space (read = SFH with garage, yard, pool, etc.) is much much higher than those who criticize the way we build our cities.

This includes many people who come from countries that are the poster children for what is considered some of the most desirable urbanism in the world.
Lots of people, myself included, have moved from Europe and actually (shock/horror) like many aspects of NA city living. Sure, even the most walkable areas of Calgary pale in comparison to even a mediocre city in Europe in the walkabilty stakes. However, we also get to live in large, well functioning living spaces while not spending most of your wage on rent and never being able to afford a house. The very fact that the roads are built in a way that isn't a PIA to drive on is also, shockingly, a positive as most people in Europe still also drive. The cities here are (Calgary at least) are generally very clean and well run.

I agree with the sentiment about Canadian suburbia being the worst of both worlds though. It isn't cheap enough to be classified as cheap, and it definitely isn't good enough to be good. Soul sucking is precisely the best way to describe it, especially in Calgary where it is far away from any transit or amenities meaning you are no less dependent on cars than if you had a proper suburban house.
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  #324  
Old Posted May 22, 2018, 1:41 PM
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Yeah, I would add that being able to leave home in your car, and drive to Walmart, Canadian Tire, malls, restaurants, the veterinarian, the hairstylist, and park (almost) right outside the door for free, is a huge *plus* in the minds of a lot of people.

Of course, few of them would describe the routes they take to get there as particularly attractive, but I don't think they really care about that or pay much attention to it. For better or worse.
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  #325  
Old Posted May 22, 2018, 1:42 PM
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About to start a war here, but I would personally say for my own personal taste Calgary on average has the worst form of suburbia for a major city in Canada that I have seen. Drove through it last summer and for me it contained the worst aspects of Surrey (on average the worst suburb in Vancouver IMO) on steroids that stretched on forever. The width of the highway ROW blew my mind compared to most of those in Vancouver.

In all honesty despite the need for more heavy commuter rail the average suburb in Vancouver isn’t that much worse than the average suburb I have seen in Japan (and some areas in metro-van that are close to Skytrain I may even call better). The geographical constraints and topography of the Vancouver area is major reason for most of the metro having a half decent suburban form overall IMO. The ALR has helped too. As has Skytrain obviously.

I will maybe post some pics of suburbia in Japan latter. Big box stores, 4 / 6 lane arteries, almost entirely chains, big oversized parking lots, and towers haphazardly built in the most blizzard places. Oh, and again, no sidewalks.
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  #326  
Old Posted May 22, 2018, 3:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post
About to start a war here, but I would personally say for my own personal taste Calgary on average has the worst form of suburbia for a major city in Canada that I have seen. Drove through it last summer and for me it contained the worst aspects of Surrey (on average the worst suburb in Vancouver IMO) on steroids that stretched on forever. The width of the highway ROW blew my mind compared to most of those in Vancouver.

In all honesty despite the need for more heavy commuter rail the average suburb in Vancouver isn’t that much worse than the average suburb I have seen in Japan (and some areas in metro-van that are close to Skytrain I may even call better). The geographical constraints and topography of the Vancouver area is major reason for most of the metro having a half decent suburban form overall IMO. The ALR has helped too. As has Skytrain obviously.

I will maybe post some pics of suburbia in Japan latter. Big box stores, 4 / 6 lane arteries, almost entirely chains, big oversized parking lots, and towers haphazardly built in the most blizzard places. Oh, and again, no sidewalks.
Just curious where you drove in Calgary? If you only stuck to the TransCanada / 16th Ave. then yes that entire road is awful. It's always bothered me that people get such a shitty first impression driving through on the TransCanada. It's like they designed it to be separate from the city.
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  #327  
Old Posted May 22, 2018, 4:00 PM
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I'm personally more attracted to the urban form, but it can absolutely be soul sucking.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.65081...=en&authuser=0
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  #328  
Old Posted May 22, 2018, 4:28 PM
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  #329  
Old Posted May 22, 2018, 4:37 PM
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I don't mind my slice of suburbia in Royal Oak. I have the C-train just down the street for when I go to events in the core. I have pathways and natural areas for walking/jogging and biking. I have a shopping center with 90% of what I need to get on a weekly basis that I can easily walk to.

There are restaurants and pubs close by which I can walk home from plus a rec center. I am also on the highway to Banff in 5 minutes for when I go hiking or skiing. The only downside I have is I have to drive 30 minutes to work. I'm ok with that though because I purposely don't choose to live near where I work because I might not be working there within a year or so anyway.

I am also a quick drive to the airport which is important because I fly out every month for two weeks.

I don't find it soul crushing at all. I know my neighbours. I see them daily. We have a block party every year and there are always people out on the paths in the neighbourhood.

I can understand why some people don't like the burbs. It has to match your lifestyle. I've lived in the beltline before and at the time is suited my needs perfectly. It no longer does so I moved out. But I don't sit here and trash it just because it doesn't work for me. Live where you feel comfortable.
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  #330  
Old Posted May 22, 2018, 5:13 PM
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Originally Posted by itom 987 View Post
Can anyone beat this?
This is just so wrong on every level - not even a single blade of grass.

What do the front of these houses look like???

Where do you pile the snow after a blizzard???
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  #331  
Old Posted May 22, 2018, 5:19 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
I've never seen that angle before. This view is like staring down the gullet of a hungry bear:

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5630...7i13312!8i6656

How would you like to live here and have this looming over your back yard?

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5636...7i13312!8i6656
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  #332  
Old Posted May 22, 2018, 7:14 PM
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Originally Posted by O-tacular View Post
I've never seen that angle before. This view is like staring down the gullet of a hungry bear:

http://<b>https://www.google.com/map...312!8i6656</b>

How would you like to live here and have this looming over your back yard?

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5636...7i13312!8i6656
That first one made me shudder in fear. Now I know what that poor old woman must have felt like.

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  #333  
Old Posted May 22, 2018, 8:13 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
This is just so wrong on every level - not even a single blade of grass.

What do the front of these houses look like???

Where do you pile the snow after a blizzard???
Those kinds of developments are all over the Fraser Valley including in many of the better off areas like White Rock/South Surrey. Land is very expensive and few can come close to affording a house even 30 km from the City so they pack as many townhomes into a single area as possible. I will say though that townhomes themselves are more attractive than these but there is no grass between the homes but simply pavement with homes looking right into their neighbours from both sides.
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  #334  
Old Posted May 22, 2018, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
This is just so wrong on every level - not even a single blade of grass.

What do the front of these houses look like???

Where do you pile the snow after a blizzard???
Here is the front:

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4967...7i13312!8i6656
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  #335  
Old Posted May 22, 2018, 11:58 PM
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I live in a subdivision in Mississauga built in the 80's. It's not the worst example of soul sucking suburbia that Canada or even the GTA has to offer. It's actually quite pleasant. But the arterial roads around here are what really kill me.

An example of a residential street in my neck of the woods:
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.52800...=en&authuser=0

The relativley mature trees absolutely helps.

In the same area, and back to soul-sucking:
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.51978...=en&authuser=0

Being a pedestrian along this stretch of Dundas is a dangerous game
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  #336  
Old Posted May 23, 2018, 2:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post
About to start a war here, but I would personally say for my own personal taste Calgary on average has the worst form of suburbia for a major city in Canada that I have seen. Drove through it last summer and for me it contained the worst aspects of Surrey (on average the worst suburb in Vancouver IMO) on steroids that stretched on forever. The width of the highway ROW blew my mind compared to most of those in Vancouver.

In all honesty despite the need for more heavy commuter rail the average suburb in Vancouver isn’t that much worse than the average suburb I have seen in Japan (and some areas in metro-van that are close to Skytrain I may even call better). The geographical constraints and topography of the Vancouver area is major reason for most of the metro having a half decent suburban form overall IMO. The ALR has helped too. As has Skytrain obviously.

I will maybe post some pics of suburbia in Japan latter. Big box stores, 4 / 6 lane arteries, almost entirely chains, big oversized parking lots, and towers haphazardly built in the most blizzard places. Oh, and again, no sidewalks.
Agreed the suburbia is awful, although on par with the other prairie cities I have seen. However I would say that blaming wide highway ROWs is mis-apportioning blame. The fact that we sensiblydidn't jam in our major roads into too narrow ROWs has little to do with Taradale or Mckenzie Towne being vinyl sided shithole wastelands. I truly believe that many Calgary residents simply have no taste and do not care that the plastic box house they have bought looks like crap, because it is huge and didn't cost much money. Or, at least so many people don't care that the rest have little option but to continue buying into it.
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  #337  
Old Posted May 23, 2018, 3:10 AM
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
Agreed the suburbia is awful, although on par with the other prairie cities I have seen. However I would say that blaming wide highway ROWs is mis-apportioning blame. The fact that we sensiblydidn't jam in our major roads into too narrow ROWs has little to do with Taradale or Mckenzie Towne being vinyl sided shithole wastelands. I truly believe that many Calgary residents simply have no taste and do not care that the plastic box house they have bought looks like crap, because it is huge and didn't cost much money. Or, at least so many people don't care that the rest have little option but to continue buying into it.
Oh I wasn’t trying to completely single Calgary out, it is just by far the Prarie city that I have the most personal experience with.

There is nothing wrong with reserving some ROW for future highway expansion, but many of the roads there do this to an excessive degree that does work against good urbanism, but I wasn’t blaming this factor for the poor suburban realm. In all honesty it is just a symptom of it IMO.
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  #338  
Old Posted May 23, 2018, 3:12 AM
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Originally Posted by BradFromTO View Post
I live in a subdivision in Mississauga built in the 80's. It's not the worst example of soul sucking suburbia that Canada or even the GTA has to offer. It's actually quite pleasant. But the arterial roads around here are what really kill me.

An example of a residential street in my neck of the woods:
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.52800...=en&authuser=0

The relativley mature trees absolutely helps.

In the same area, and back to soul-sucking:
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.51978...=en&authuser=0

Being a pedestrian along this stretch of Dundas is a dangerous game

That last one is exactly what I mean when I think of soul-sucking suburbia.
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  #339  
Old Posted May 23, 2018, 3:14 AM
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Originally Posted by O-tacular View Post
Just curious where you drove in Calgary? If you only stuck to the TransCanada / 16th Ave. then yes that entire road is awful. It's always bothered me that people get such a shitty first impression driving through on the TransCanada. It's like they designed it to be separate from the city.
We came up south alon the 201, went to the airport to pick up my sister, then back to the 201, west to the #1, and then west to the Rockies.

The portion from he airport to the #1 was especially depressing.

Please note that I really like Calgary’s downtown, but that drive listed above was the most soul sucking drive I have done in Canada.
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  #340  
Old Posted May 23, 2018, 3:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post
We came up south alon the 201, went to the airport to pick up my sister, then back to the 201, west to the #1, and then west to the Rockies.

The portion from he airport to the #1 was especially depressing.

Please note that I really like Calgary’s downtown, but that drive listed above was the most soul sucking drive I have done in Canada.
Oh man, when you're driving west along stoney trail it opens up to one of the most beautiful views in the country! Always see it better in the winter but right around here it is amazing!
https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.13686...7i13312!8i6656
Hard to see it properly on google maps but the way it opens up to seeing the mountains here is amazing every time.
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