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  #21  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2010, 5:50 AM
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Yeah and it's not as if you are going to admit to some kind of reality either.
You can't even admit to the reality that your view is the minority view in your own country. Most Danes want to be in the EU and most Danes even want the euro. But go ahead, deny this in your next post along with more babble about "being small and flexibel" (in reality Denmark being an export nation has it's largest export market; the rest of the EU to thank for the wealth it currently enjoys).
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  #22  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2010, 5:58 AM
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^that Danes like all other Europeans like cooperation between the European nations is no secret, nor have I ever had any beef with that, why I support the EU as a trade union...

But the Euro isn't welcome by neither me nor the population and have never had any majority, in fact it was downvoted twice if you recall and it's an Opt Out for us that isn't about to change..

And now for the final time - since all I say is just "babble" to you why keep this debate going? None of us are changing views, it's a waste of time..

Let's see how it goes some years from now.. I'm not going to waste more time on this now.. so goodnight ( well good morning is more in order ) - I'll dig up the thread when there's something related finalized..
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  #23  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2010, 1:20 PM
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Ignorance is bliss. Its a quality of many protestant countries....

The Brits also try so hard to ignore the realities AND necessities in EU-Europe.
It always reminds on the US-creationists movement denying Darwin relentlessly in order to keep their believe...

Anyway, from a broader perspective the cultural and political differences are not that greatly differing. Sweden is much closer to the Netherlands and Germany than Texas is to California.

By todays standards, I also consider all inner European (foreign) politics as domestic.

Look at the globe. We will have an increasing multipolar world order the next decade. The US, China, Russia, India even Brazil will matter. There are very few European powers who are able to stand in for European values. With the EU as a common anchor and tool it will (already is) be possible to protect the European interests.
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  #24  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2010, 11:07 PM
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^I respect your views but to me, life and values are more important than interests and foreign influence..

I have no problem with Europeans working together, heck I greatly support it, but how Danes go around their daily business, how we run things and how we want our future to look is for us to decide only, not for anyone else..

And if there can't be found a golden middle way where we can run our nation as we want and still be part of the EU I think leaving and joining up with likeminded will be a better alternative..
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  #25  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2010, 12:46 AM
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^So be it.

EU-Europe allows for a high degree of national self determination.

The one thing that stands out when reading your comments is the presupposed
uniqueness of the Danish model. Basically whole western Europe has a high degree of social security. Its a common denominator and a valued way of living.

The moment it gets really funny though is when the Nordic fellow assesses "Southern Europe" in order to distinguish economic differences.

Just to remind the Smørrebrød: Italy is a G8 country with an economy bigger than Russia. Spain is bigger than Canada and Brazil, plus having the same HDI as Denmark !

Western EU Europe (EU15) is already pretty coherent in living standards and lifestyle even political attitudes. Thats why an EU state can be trusted, because it is lead by likeminded Europeans.
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  #26  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2010, 1:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lear View Post
Western EU Europe (EU15) is already pretty coherent in living standards and lifestyle even political attitudes. Thats why an EU state can be trusted, because it is lead by likeminded Europeans.
I see two major problems with this (sadly, as I'm a federalist). First is corporate influence and lack of influence from the actual citizens. Second is that we need clear separation of powers between the EU and national (and county and ...) levels. This separation is lacking now, and if US history is anything to go by it needs to ber very explecit or we'll get creeping acumulation of powers in areas that can be handled at least as well at local levels.

As for the UK leaving the EU... not gonna happen. If it were to happen it'd take 5-10 years to negotiate, since the UK would harldy exit all parts of the EU.
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  #27  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2010, 1:24 AM
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The one thing that stands out when reading your comments is the presupposed uniqueness of the Danish model. Basically whole western Europe has a high degree of social security. Its a common denominator and a valued way of living.
There is still great differences in everything from healthcare, wages, social security, education, public pension etc etc etc...

We have it like we want and there's no reason nor point in compromising that!

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Just to remind the Smørrebrød: Italy is a G8 country with an economy bigger than Russia. Spain is bigger than Canada and Brazil, plus having the same HDI as Denmark!
And just to remind the bratwurst you need to add more than $21.000 ( that's 3 Romania' ) to get Italy up to the same per capita GDP as we have.. so good for Italy but colour me unimpressed..

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Western EU Europe (EU15) is already pretty coherent in living standards and lifestyle even political attitudes. Thats why an EU state can be trusted, because it is lead by likeminded Europeans.
There are more to the EU than the western and northern nations and why should we even put ourselves in a position where trust in others are needed in the first place, we already have it like we want it...

Trough the EU we go from 100% power to 1,7% and even get to pay for letting others decide for us... no thanks!


Our Greenland already left the EU, keep pushing and the rest will follow

Germany may be searching for a new identity - we aint!
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  #28  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2010, 2:02 AM
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Trough the EU we go from 100% power to 1,7% and even get to pay for letting others decide for us.
I don´t get it. Who is "others" ? Denmark is represented in EU structures. With such a successful Danish Dynamite it shouldn´t be a problem to convince other Europeans (within the EU) to follow their models, shouldn´t it ?

And may I ask with whom Denmark wants to unify ? With Russia? With Norway, which itself is already tied with Europe as an EFTA states. Or has Denmark already installed so much windpower being able to propel the peninsula to the US coast in order to join America ???

No my friend, EU Europe has become a fraction on this globe and its countries are destined to work out a common future. A split of any member state, even UK, would be suicide.
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  #29  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2010, 2:18 AM
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I don´t get it. Who is "others" ?
The 26 other contries ( who nearly all out populate us.. and this get a higher saying )

( the percentage is from the European Parliament btw )

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Denmark is represented in EU structures. With such a successful Danish Dynamite it shouldn´t be a problem to convince other Europeans (within the EU) to follow their models, shouldn´t it ?
Our ways aren't free and getting 800 million to pay more taxes or 3 million companies to pay higher wages isn't a task we can nor should try..

Let people run their nation as they like and within their means and the EU will not get any beef from me - but try to limit our independence and laws and I support leaving..

If nations wants to be like Denmark or other Scandinavian nations all they have to do is impliment our ways, no need for joining up with us or overhauling their nations - as we can see from the last decades around Europe and in the new member nations the only way to progress is trough hard work and that is no matter what a nation is and isn't a member off..
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And may I ask with whom Denmark wants to unify ? With Russia? With Norway?
Expanding the Nordic counsil would be a good move and unifying with Norway and Iceland ( with us bringing Greenland and the Faroe Islands ) could give us a small but interesting union - where Sweden and Finland of course would be welcome too as NC members..

In the long run the UK and Canada perhaps could join such a trade union... maybe even the Baltics..

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No my friend, EU Europe has become a fraction on this globe and its countries are destined to work out a common future. A split of any member state, even UK, would be suicide.
The most successful nations in on the continent are Switzerland and Norway who both aren't a member of the EU so so much for it being suicide..

But sure it will come at a price, but if that price ensures me the rights we have at the cost of money and global saying it's a price I will gladly pay...
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  #30  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2010, 2:21 AM
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I think Germany and Italy should split again into dozens of different kingdoms.
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  #31  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2010, 2:40 AM
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But sure it will come at a price, but if that price ensures me the rights we have at the cost of money and global saying it's a price I will gladly pay...
The biggest price would be sitting alone with few Northern pals eating Knækbrød all the time.

Norway made its fortune with oil, oil and oil and gas, so what ?
Switzerland profits from its banking laws, only a small country can be allowed to do so.

Freki, I´m afraid you sound much like a 70 year old Brit who wants his Empire back including times when truly sovereign nations existed. But we live in a globalized interdependent world.

BTW, isn´t Öresund and Fehmarn Bridge financed by the EU?
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  #32  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2010, 2:52 AM
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Originally Posted by FREKI View Post
There is still great differences in everything from healthcare, wages, social security, education, public pension etc etc etc...
Nothing of which is handled on a European level, memberstates are free to determine all this for themselves.

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Our Greenland already left the EU, keep pushing and the rest will follow
More delusions...
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  #33  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2010, 2:57 AM
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And may I ask with whom Denmark wants to unify ? With Russia? With Norway, which itself is already tied with Europe as an EFTA states. Or has Denmark already installed so much windpower being able to propel the peninsula to the US coast in order to join America ???
LOL, you are talking to him as if he was a rational person...
Now he's talking about forming a union with Canada because he (who incidentally also speaks for the whole nation of Denmark) has so much more in common with them then with Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, France, Spain or Italy...
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  #34  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2010, 3:02 AM
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Haha.

It might be interesting to know that the EU is already in free trade talks with Canada....


So maybe then the Danish yoghurt feels better.
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  #35  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2010, 3:22 AM
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To keep stable and strong common currency for countries which are not on the same development level like it is situation now in Euro-zone, it is not cheap at all, actually it cost huge amount of the money, so it is stupidity and luxury of the Euro-zone countries to leave open door forever to some countries which are members of the EU but they don't want to join Euro-zone.

If we have common currency, than it is not financially healthy system to have common market without protection to those countries which are not in same currency and etc zone.

Solution:
Simple question with time deadline, "my way or highway"! Least one thing is sure, Paris, Frankfurt and Berlin will need extra offices a lot.
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  #36  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2010, 3:48 AM
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^I completely agree - get the plans down on paper for the future and ask "yes or no" - this way there wouldn't be any surprises, no sneaking stuff in and no uncertainty..

Of course that wouldn't work as people wouldn't fall for it, but it would be a fair way and it would elliminate so much of what people dislike and distrust about the EU..
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Nothing of which is handled on a European level, memberstates are free to determine all this for themselves.
So far.. and only mostly.. ( we had to fight in court for our transfat acid ban despite it being documented unhealthy - luckily we won and kept it ) and no we have to go to court over letting people operate charities taxfree.. ( why do the EU have a beef with charities - Romania & co get's it's fair share, if that goes away it will be Brussels having to pay.. )
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More delusions...
Look it up - it was the first move the home rule on greenland took after requesting the administrative power to do so from the Kingdom..

As I have already said Danes like cooperation, but domination will make us leave and when the EU keeps reducing our number of ministers and keep reducing the saying we have and take us to court on human and health related issues then what do you think will happen...

We simply do not need the EU - what benefits it presents is not worth risking our system for - so the more the EU will push us, the more likely it will be that we leave.. ( already got several ministers pushing for a EU referendum )

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The biggest price would be sitting alone with few Northern pals eating Knækbrød all the time.
This is what gave us the top ranking GDP, healthcare, education, retirement/pension system, wages, worker righst etc etc etc - I'm sure we'll manage ( oh and btw Knækbrød is Swedish, you might be thining about Rugbrød )

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Norway made its fortune with oil, oil and oil and gas, so what ??
No they didn't - in fact they aren't even spending their oil money, they are pooling it for future generations.. ( oh and Denmark do btw also have plenty of both oil and gas )

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Switzerland profits from its banking laws, only a small country can be allowed to do so.?
Good thing we're a small country then, we could always adopt their ways if we should find the need
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Freki, I´m afraid you sound much like a 70 year old Brit who wants his Empire back including times when truly sovereign nations existed. But we live in a globalized interdependent world.?
Well there worse things than 70 year old Brits..

And if you would have been listening you would know that I don't want an empire, I don't want power or anything - all I want is for the Danes to deside the future of the Danes and have the system they want to have..

I don't think it's too much to ask for - and if we can have that while being an EU member we don't have a problem - but if we can't and see our future at risk of being overrun by the large nations and what they want and then we will be better off on our own...

I don't expect you to fully understand this comming from the highest populated nation with the greatest saying and one of the shortest and most turbulant histories - but try to see the world from our view - we got that hole soceity thing down, what we need is friends to trade with, not rulers to dominate us..
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BTW, isn´t Öresund and Fehmarn Bridge financed by the EU?
Sadly no - they are financed as an independent companies who got the initial expenses borrowed from the bordering nations that will eventually be paid back over time trough the users ( bridge fee ) like the Great Belt Bridge and tunnel was..

The EU reluctantly added a bit to the Femern pool - but not enough as Germany ( or Denmark for that matter ) had hoped for..
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  #37  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2010, 4:07 AM
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Haha.

It might be interesting to know that the EU is already in free trade talks with Canada....


So maybe then the Danish yoghurt feels better.
Yeah the EU also already has a free trade agreement with South Korea and is in talks with India.
Maybe FREKI wants them to join too and dump all those pesky countries like Slovenia and Hungary and Spain...
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  #38  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2010, 4:25 AM
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^maybe I would - or maybe I think that nations such as Denmark, Korea and Canada is capable of making deals and agreements without having to ask other nations..
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  #39  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2010, 4:31 AM
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Actually, I must say I´m pretty fine by countries leaving which cannot identify with progress and integration.

Though I personnally see no serious tendency even in the UK supporting such a move. Thats why I´m only interested in upcoming solutions of the most pressing problems.

Like, How to solve the EU-Turkey question ?, How to push united for an international emission control agreement, How to deal with Russia ? ,How to organize a flexible EU security force which can be deployed globally ? How and where to invest EU regional funds in Eastern Europe. And how to invest more money for EU research ?

The question asked in this thread is more less absurd. Somebody could also ask; What happens if the US invades Canada ?

One comment to the British situation, think about what happened to the cherished pound during the current crisis, it dropped like the currency of a banana republic. This would have happened to most southern Europeans. A superstable Eurozone prevented all the mess.

Good fight, Good night.
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  #40  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2010, 4:33 AM
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^I completely agree - get the plans down on paper for the future and ask "yes or no" - this way there wouldn't be any surprises, no sneaking stuff in and no uncertainty..
I hope you realize that there is no way in hell that Denmark is ever going to say "no" to further EU membership, do you? Hell, all signs point to them eventually saying yes to the euro. Maybe what you fail to realise is that all this is the responsibility of your own government. There is no sinister conspiracy sneaking things in and forcing things upon Denmark.
But who am I kidding, we all know that you don't "know" this and don't want to know it either...

Quote:
Of course that wouldn't work as people wouldn't fall for it, but it would be a fair way and it would elliminate so much of what people dislike and distrust about the EU..
Again speaking for the whole nation are you? Luckily we all know that most Danes have far more realistic views and in fact are among the most supportive of the EU (and rightly so because Denmark is one of the nations benefitting from EU membership the most).

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So far.. and only mostly.. ( we had to fight in court for our transfat acid ban despite it being documented unhealthy - luckily we won and kept it ) and no we have to go to court over letting people operate charities taxfree.. ( why do the EU have a beef with charities - Romania & co get's it's fair share, if that goes away it will be Brussels having to pay.. )
What on earth are you talking about? This reads like a mixture of badly worded propaganda you read somewhere and some strange brainfart delusion.

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Look it up - it was the first move the home rule on greenland took after requesting the administrative power to do so from the Kingdom..
I know what you are talking about. The context in which you view this is totally wrong though. you seem to think this is some prelude to Denmark itself leaving the EU which will never happen. It is in Denmark's best interest to stay in the EU, just like at the time the Greenlanders thought it was in their best interest to leave.

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As I have already said Danes like cooperation, but domination will make us leave and when the EU keeps reducing our number of ministers and keep reducing the saying we have and take us to court on human and health related issues then what do you think will happen...

We simply do not need the EU - what benefits it presents is not worth risking our system for - so the more the EU will push us, the more likely it will be that we leave.. ( already got several ministers pushing for a EU referendum )
Yes you do need the EU, in fact you need it before countries like Germany, France, Spain or Italy needs it. The EU is the main reason you are doing so well in fact.

Quote:
This is what gave us the top ranking GDP, healthcare, education, retirement/pension system, wages, worker righst etc etc etc - I'm sure we'll manage ( oh and btw Knækbrød is Swedish, you might be thining about Rugbrød )
Denmark might have had its affairs in order regarding those things, but so did other countries (also non Nordic ones you so deseperately want to dissassociate from), but in fact it is the EU that is pushing all those things in the countries that didn't currently and has done so in the past (Spain went from a dictatorship to one of the most modern countries in the world in 30 years time). Most often the very prospect of joining the EU already brings change to underdeveloped countries. But you probably don't care about that, more pesky countries to drag you down right? No matter if in most cases it's not even their fault they're underdeveloped or "behind" almighty Denmark.

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No they didn't - in fact they aren't even spending their oil money, they are pooling it for future generations.. ( oh and Denmark do btw also have plenty of both oil and gas )
Yeah Norway currently is getting rich on exporting icecubes and skis...
Denmark has "plenty oil and gas"?

btw Norway is just as dependent on the EU as any other small memberstate, the difference being they don't even have a say!

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Good thing we're a small country then, we could always adopt their ways if we should find the need
More delusions...
Luckily for Danes you will never be in a position to fuck up that country.

Quote:
Well there worse things than 70 year old Brits..

And if you would have been listening you would know that I don't want an empire, I don't want power or anything - all I want is for the Danes to deside the future of the Danes and have the system they want to have..

I don't think it's too much to ask for - and if we can have that while being an EU member we don't have a problem - but if we can't and see our future at risk of being overrun by the large nations and what they want and then we will be better off on our own...
You do have that so all your whining is based on falsehoods and delusions.
Outside of the EU is where your country would really be overrun by not only large nations, but eventually also not so large nations on the rise. And not only in Europe but worldwide. Good luck going at it alone when Egypt wants to boycot your products next time.
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