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  #61  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2011, 10:47 PM
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The CAP is a decreasing expense though, it's expected to be 35% of the whole budget in 2013. I will confess that I'm not aware of the system details, it's just no secret that people in the UK have a negative opinion about it, and that agriculture is yet a precious resource when the world population keeps on growing. That sector has certainly a great future so we need to support the European farmers, it will be in the UK's interest as well.

As an average citizen, I have absolutely no problem with the British rebate. Numbers show that the UK is a major contributor, taking their responsibility, that's fine.
I just don't like the way you seem to despise southern Europe. For example Portugal has some debt issues for now, still the Portuguese are renowned as serious hard workers, they easily deserve your respect. Do you know that in average, the Greeks work more than the Germans and the British, not to mention the French? They surely have some issues and even some faults but since they're generally courageous for working, we're gonna help them and save our own butts at the same time because make no mistake, from Ireland to Greece, from Portugal to Finland, we're already all in the same damn boat and there will be no turning back.
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  #62  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2011, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mousquet View Post
That sector has certainly a great future so we need to support the European farmers, it will be in the UK's interest as well.
Correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mousquet View Post
I just don't like the way you seem to despise southern Europe. For example Portugal has some debt issues for now, still the Portuguese are renowned as serious hard workers, they easily deserve your respect. Do you know that in average, the Greeks work more than the Germans and the British, not to mention the French? They surely have some issues and even some faults but since they're generally courageous for working, we're gonna help them and save our own butts at the same time because make no mistake, from Ireland to Greece, from Portugal to Finland, we're already all in the same damn boat and there will be no turning back.
Correct as well.
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  #63  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2011, 2:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mousquet View Post
The CAP is a decreasing expense though, it's expected to be 35% of the whole budget in 2013. I will confess that I'm not aware of the system details, it's just no secret that people in the UK have a negative opinion about it, and that agriculture is yet a precious resource when the world population keeps on growing. That sector has certainly a great future so we need to support the European farmers, it will be in the UK's interest as well.

As an average citizen, I have absolutely no problem with the British rebate. Numbers show that the UK is a major contributor, taking their responsibility, that's fine.
I just don't like the way you seem to despise southern Europe. For example Portugal has some debt issues for now, still the Portuguese are renowned as serious hard workers, they easily deserve your respect. Do you know that in average, the Greeks work more than the Germans and the British, not to mention the French? They surely have some issues and even some faults but since they're generally courageous for working, we're gonna help them and save our own butts at the same time because make no mistake, from Ireland to Greece, from Portugal to Finland, we're already all in the same damn boat and there will be no turning back.
CAP shouldn't be even 0.035% of the budget, let alone anywhere in excess of 30%. I have no argument with agriculture being an important resource for any economy.

What I have a problem with is the ineffective measures that CAP and other agricultural/rural policies have generated to manage and protect the sector. We live in a globalised economy where foodstuffs can be transported across the globe, yet CAP has increased prices for the average consumer, damaged the competiveness of agricultural sectors in emerging economies and led to a colossal waste of food (hence the term butter mountains and milk lakes) that is beneficial to nobody.

The simple reason why agriculture would thrive without CAP is that we all need food! The markets and consumer demand would reflect that, lowering prices, forcing adoption of new techniques and technologies and limiting waste.

You talk about Greeks working more than Germans, the French and Brits, yet at the same time they have astronomical levels of tax evasion, an obscenely extravagant public sector with padded pensions and rampant corruption. They didn't get into the present situation due to being unlucky.

Yet after getting into trouble and being gifted a line-line last week to restore some level of order and calm, Greece instead opts to throw it in the face of everyone else in Europe. A Greek No vote would not just send Greece back to the dark ages, but lead to multiple bank failures in France and Germany (high exposure to the country), but send shockwaves through the other PIIGS, with untold consequences. France, Germany and the rest of the EU would enter a significant downturn.
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  #64  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2011, 4:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nito View Post
CAP shouldn't be even 0.035% of the budget, let alone anywhere in excess of 30%. I have no argument with agriculture being an important resource for any economy.

What I have a problem with is the ineffective measures that CAP and other agricultural/rural policies have generated to manage and protect the sector. We live in a globalised economy where foodstuffs can be transported across the globe, yet CAP has increased prices for the average consumer, damaged the competiveness of agricultural sectors in emerging economies and led to a colossal waste of food (hence the term butter mountains and milk lakes) that is beneficial to nobody.

The simple reason why agriculture would thrive without CAP is that we all need food! The markets and consumer demand would reflect that, lowering prices, forcing adoption of new techniques and technologies and limiting waste.

You talk about Greeks working more than Germans, the French and Brits, yet at the same time they have astronomical levels of tax evasion, an obscenely extravagant public sector with padded pensions and rampant corruption. They didn't get into the present situation due to being unlucky.

Yet after getting into trouble and being gifted a line-line last week to restore some level of order and calm, Greece instead opts to throw it in the face of everyone else in Europe. A Greek No vote would not just send Greece back to the dark ages, but lead to multiple bank failures in France and Germany (high exposure to the country), but send shockwaves through the other PIIGS, with untold consequences. France, Germany and the rest of the EU would enter a significant downturn.
Good points all. I'm not well-read on the specifics of the bail-out plan for Greece though, but I imagine it's way, way, way to the right of me policy wise (these bail-outs usually are: kill the public sector and give everything to the rich seems to be a common mantra for the people running banks). But given the way they've dug their own hole... Can't say I have much sympathy (in general - there are millions of Greeks I do have great sympathy for, they sure didn't ALL contribute to the crash).
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  #65  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2011, 9:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Swede View Post
Good points all. I'm not well-read on the specifics of the bail-out plan for Greece though, but I imagine it's way, way, way to the right of me policy wise (these bail-outs usually are: kill the public sector and give everything to the rich seems to be a common mantra for the people running banks). But given the way they've dug their own hole... Can't say I have much sympathy (in general - there are millions of Greeks I do have great sympathy for, they sure didn't ALL contribute to the crash).
While I would partially agree that the general attitude towards to the Greek bailout (and requirements in the other PIIGS) is right-leaning, it is a much needed correction away from the other spectrum which has been a one-way left leaning journey off a cliff. It's crazy to think that Greece has more Porsches than people paying tax on the equivalent of €50,000 per annum!

While not everyone in Greece contributed towards the situation, the vast majority did. They consistently elected governments that basically relied on accounting tricks and the money markets to invest in social welfare programmes that were simply far too rich. The population gladly accepted the pensions that allowed them to retire a lot earlier than other European nations such as Germany. Meanwhile corruption and tax evasion was and remains endemic across all cross-sections of society.

The Greeks are playing a silly game of Russian Roulette that is going to damage tens of millions of people across Europe. This is also causing massive damage to the credibility of not just every nation in the €-zone, but in the EU.
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  #66  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2011, 4:46 PM
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Originally Posted by nito View Post
While I would partially agree that the general attitude towards to the Greek bailout (and requirements in the other PIIGS) is right-leaning, it is a much needed correction away from the other spectrum which has been a one-way left leaning journey off a cliff. It's crazy to think that Greece has more Porsches than people paying tax on the equivalent of €50,000 per annum!

While not everyone in Greece contributed towards the situation, the vast majority did. They consistently elected governments that basically relied on accounting tricks and the money markets to invest in social welfare programmes that were simply far too rich. The population gladly accepted the pensions that allowed them to retire a lot earlier than other European nations such as Germany. Meanwhile corruption and tax evasion was and remains endemic across all cross-sections of society.

The Greeks are playing a silly game of Russian Roulette that is going to damage tens of millions of people across Europe. This is also causing massive damage to the credibility of not just every nation in the €-zone, but in the EU.
I wouldn't call their previous economic policies left-leaning, I'd call 'em corrupt, inept and idiotic. I don't think you'll object to those three adjectives
The rest of your post...
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