Denver Union Station & FasTracks

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

A new transit line can either follow existing growth or it can help direct future growth. The latter is the case with the East line. The NE quadrant of the Denver metro area has a lot of industrial and undeveloped land, but these are areas where future growth will occur. One of the principles of MetroVision, the land use/transportation plan for the Denver region, is to focus future growth along rail corridors, with the East line being a prime example of how putting in the transit now (DIA notwithstanding) will allow us to direct and shape the form of development for decades into the future along the corridor.

The central intent of the DIA line is, and, will be, to draw DIA users into downtown Denver. The bulk of the cost of the line involves that portion of the line from Peoria to the DIA terminal, and, that portion of the alteration of the DIA terminal by RTD, assumed by RTD.

There are basically two lines: the DIA line from Peoria to Lodo, and, the 2nd, from Peoria to downtown. Peoria Station will be the terminus of the I-225 line, and, will be the only train to train transfer on the line outside of the DUS heavy rail train shed. The first has possibilities if the frequency of trains on both the I-225 line and that segment from Peoria to Lodo are in the once every 10 minute range during morning and evening rush.

I have not seen the plans for the Peoria Station, but, the station should provide platform to platform transfer on the LRT I-225 portion, and, controlled access to more than 2 tracks for the commuter line (some trains on the DIA line need to start at Peoria). Preferably, either an underground concourse or an overhead passage way with stairs and escalators should be used. In addition, bus traffic needs to abut the station on either the north or the south side and run parallel to the platforms. A basic template would be an improved version of the Broadway Station. This type of design is cookie cuttered world wide when one rail line terminates at a station where a second rail line runs through traffic.

Do this and traffic will start to grow as the important component of the DIA is that segment from Peoria to Lodo. Worldwide the vast majority of airport access trains run under capacity, particularly those that are more than 20km from downtown.

If this portion is improved correctly and provides users with a high frequency of trains between Peoria and Lodo, then TOD growth will be inevitable. If the frequency is too low, the line will be underutilized.

Of course, the DUS station is not designed to handle large volumes of rail traffic, so throttling back with mediocre design is the likely scenario, short term.

In my option, growth SOUTH of the 40th and Colorado, the Central Park, and, the Peoria Station have the best potential, if the frequencies between Peoria and Union Station run between 600a-10:00a and 3:00p-8:00p at W line frequencies. The Peoria to DIA segment never need to run more often than once every 30 minutes, but it needs to this between 6:00a-9:00p.

Pretty simple, but we life in a big money funded political world, so answers will be more nebulous and will be announced after the fact.

[Octavian]

Update from the other end of the East Line, Denver Airport Station. From DIA's Facebook page.

[DenverInfill]

Originally Posted by Wizened Variations

The central intent of the DIA line is, and, will be, to draw DIA users into downtown Denver. The bulk of the cost of the line involves that portion of the line from Peoria to the DIA terminal, and, that portion of the alteration of the DIA terminal by RTD, assumed by RTD.

There are basically two lines: the DIA line from Peoria to Lodo, and, the 2nd, from Peoria to downtown. Peoria Station will be the terminus of the I-225 line, and, will be the only train to train transfer on the line outside of the DUS heavy rail train shed. The first has possibilities if the frequency of trains on both the I-225 line and that segment from Peoria to Lodo are in the once every 10 minute range during morning and evening rush.

I have not seen the plans for the Peoria Station, but, the station should provide platform to platform transfer on the LRT I-225 portion, and, controlled access to more than 2 tracks for the commuter line (some trains on the DIA line need to start at Peoria). Preferably, either an underground concourse or an overhead passage way with stairs and escalators should be used. In addition, bus traffic needs to abut the station on either the north or the south side and run parallel to the platforms. A basic template would be an improved version of the Broadway Station. This type of design is cookie cuttered world wide when one rail line terminates at a station where a second rail line runs through traffic.

Do this and traffic will start to grow as the important component of the DIA is that segment from Peoria to Lodo. Worldwide the vast majority of airport access trains run under capacity, particularly those that are more than 20km from downtown.

If this portion is improved correctly and provides users with a high frequency of trains between Peoria and Lodo, then TOD growth will be inevitable. If the frequency is too low, the line will be underutilized.

Of course, the DUS station is not designed to handle large volumes of rail traffic, so throttling back with mediocre design is the likely scenario, short term.

In my option, growth SOUTH of the 40th and Colorado, the Central Park, and, the Peoria Station have the best potential, if the frequencies between Peoria and Union Station run between 600a-10:00a and 3:00p-8:00p at W line frequencies. The Peoria to DIA segment never need to run more often than once every 30 minutes, but it needs to this between 6:00a-9:00p.

Pretty simple, but we life in a big money funded political world, so answers will be more nebulous and will be announced after the fact.

You are so clueless, I don't know where to begin. Therefore, I won't.

[CharlesCO]

Originally Posted by Octavian

Update from the other end of the East Line, Denver Airport Station. From DIA's Facebook page.

Where's the airport in this photo? Ahh, it must be behind that monolithic structure in front.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

You are so clueless, I don't know where to begin. Therefore, I won't.

Then please provide the "Party Line." What is the official version?

[Leo the Dog]

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

You are so clueless, I don't know where to begin. Therefore, I won't.

That's not much of a reply, now is it?

If you disagree then provide an explanation as to why.

[mr1138]

So it's been 3 days now since Denver Union Station officially soft-opened. Surprised nobody has pointed that out yet outside of the Denver discussion forums. This is a pretty big deal! Pictures have been posted here http://denverinfill.com/blog/2014/07...ion-opens.html.

Somebody should post them here too. I would, but they're not my pictures so I don't want to steal the original photographer's thunder.

[RockMont]

Get 'er done! it will be a nice hotel, and a great mode of transport to the airport too.

[Muji]

Wow, the Union Station restoration is gorgeous indeed! It reminds me a lot of the Seattle King St. Station rehab, but even more luxurious. Plus, that Terminal Bar looks pretty irresistible.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by Muji

Wow, the Union Station restoration is gorgeous indeed! It reminds me a lot of the Seattle King St. Station rehab, but even more luxurious. Plus, that Terminal Bar looks pretty irresistible.

Union Station has been reburbished in a weird way, for now, because the old Station is in a wait and see mode for the next decade as feeder spoke lines are completed. Currently the only train serving the old station is Amtrak with 1 east bound, and, 1 west bound train, where a total of about 50 to 75 people board or disembark per day.

After the DIA line goes active in 2016, the volume of traffic will pickup largely from commuters going downtown from northeastern Denver and northwestern Aurora. By 2022, additional lines from the northwest will feed the facility, with as many as 10 trains per hour serving heavy rail facility (each train has two movements for a total of 20 movements) during morning and evening rush hours.
the light rail station is 350 meters away from the main room at Union Station and has a capacity of approximately 10 trains per hour x2 during morning and evening rush hours.

Within 10 years the interior of the main room will be as it once was- a waiting room and a passage way from the street to underground access to platforms and bus portals.

I have no doubt that within 10 years all the restaurant and bar "stuff" will be cleared out as 500 people or more might walk through the facility at given time.

[BG918]

I think they'll clear out a lot of the "living room" furniture that's in there but keep everything else as it won't really affect the circulation of the main hall. As long as the hotel is in there the Terminal Bar will probably be there too. Along the restaurants and coffee/ice cream shop.

It will get a lot busier in there once the East line is running in early 2016, and as more of the area behind is built up.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Wizened Variations

I have no doubt that within 10 years all the restaurant and bar "stuff" will be cleared out as 500 people or more might walk through the facility at given time.

Possibly, but the more likely scenario is that the living room stuff goes bye-bye and more benches pop up. It's pretty cool to see the Great Hall traversed by dozens of people at all hours when it's been so empty for the last 40 years. But just imagine when those dozens become hundreds like you said.

It's interesting to see the old photos and to realize just how much of what has been put into Union Station was there before. Ice cream shops, bars, restaurants, gift shops, were all there and are now there again.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Possibly, but the more likely scenario is that the living room stuff goes bye-bye and more benches pop up. It's pretty cool to see the Great Hall traversed by dozens of people at all hours when it's been so empty for the last 40 years. But just imagine when those dozens become hundreds like you said.

It's interesting to see the old photos and to realize just how much of what has been put into Union Station was there before. Ice cream shops, bars, restaurants, gift shops, were all there and are now there again.

Indeed.

I do think that as the through traffic becomes greater, that, eateries etc., will be pushed to run along the walls.

Unlike the old Union Station, the 'new' old station will be less of a waiting room because almost all the ridership will be localized. Most human traffic will be through the building.

There are exceptions, IMO, to this rule:

There is very little room in the Underground for people to wait for a commuter train if the weather at platform level stinks. Snow, hard rain, and, cold will force those who enjoy the platform in good weather, to find another place to wait. There are two choices: the first, would be in the narrow confines of the Underground. The second would be in the DUS main room before making the dash out in the open down to the Underground, and, then up to platform level (excluding 2 tracks that do not require a walk around if a pedestrian chooses not to access platforms via the Underground.)

I have thought for a long time that the DUS complex is not designed for through traffic, so I am not sure how much bus to commuter rail or light rail to commuter rail transfer will occur (this applies to bus, light rail, and, commuter lines.) Consequently, the number of users who will wait in the Underground to transfer should be fairly low, while the number of commuters waiting for evening rush transportation will be high. In this respect, the Underground will be very much like the Market Street Station was, with two huge pulses of users per day.

Based on this quick sketch, the DUS Terminal largely will traversed by morning commuters on their way work, evening commuters walking through the station, and, waiting there during inclement weather; and by those going to Rockies games, and, or for other weekend entertainment. These are distinctly different groups: the morning commuter who is in a hurry to get to work (cup of Java, donut, maybe a paper), the evening commuter is just wants to get home (maybe a good stiff drink might help), the Rockies fan who strolls through (maybe a quick bite to eat if it is reasonable and, again a stiff drink going to the game. Another quick stiff drink if the Rockies loose, and, a lot of noise if they win), the weekend reveler who walks gracefully out of the station en route to a watering hole, and, stumbles in on his or her way back.

The DIA line and traffic to and from DIA, until northeast Denverites and northwestern Auroroids adapt to it, will have low traffic loads in both directions. Due to time transfer problems, I do believe that many users will be dropped off by car at the front of Union Terminal. (This, paradoxically, applies most to those that live within 15 minutes by car of Union Station, as the time spent going through the station, etc., for a transfer, remains constant, and the closer one is to the station, the larger portion of total trip time station transferring becomes.)

[EngiNerd]

There's also no reason not to think of the Terminal Bar as an extended waiting area as well, just like the bars and restaurants at DIA.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by EngiNerd

There's also no reason not to think of the Terminal Bar as an extended waiting area as well, just like the bars and restaurants at DIA.

IMO, as long as bars, eateries, etc., are along the wall. Remember that those who will use the station will not have to go through security first. Unlike DIA, those that wait for any length of time do NOT have to stay in the Station, but can go outside, next door, or across the street. The sole exception would be those with luggage, who, IMO, will always be a small minority of those that use the Union Station hall. These would include small numbers of people that wait for Amtrak (a long wait, and, a lot of drinks), and, those who timed their arrival incorrectly, and, might have to wait 30 minutes for the DIA bound train.

The place will need to be wide open.

I also think that as users discover shortcuts, that a large number of users will walk through Union Station to get to the 16th Street Mall ride. I think there will be two very busy shuttle stops- one at DUS Light, and, the other adjacent to Union Station on 16th. Long term, the area in front of and to the west of the Union Station grand entrance will become rundown, or at the very least, the sidewalk restaurant ambience will be reduced.

[CharlesCO]

It's a true headscratcher for me as to why so many people think that commuters will wait for their train in a place where they can't see it or know when it will arrive or depart. People who rely on transit regularly can't afford to miss a train by waiting in a really nice waiting area. Yes, DUS turned out well, but I view it more of as a destination in itself rather than a functional part of the transit experience. Nobody is going to use the historic building on a daily basis as part of their commute.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by CharlesCO

It's a true headscratcher for me as to why so many people think that commuters will wait for their train in a place where they can't see it or know when it will arrive or depart.

Which is a very good reason to put a big board in the Station Hall when commuter rail arrives. You're not going to have a ton of people who will wait for their trains in the Great Hall, but that would allow for the option to be there. I do agree that Union Station is more of a destination in itself than a functional part of the transit experience (asides from Amtrak).

[Jasonhouse]

Isn't it good when the layout of the station naturally segregates visitors from regular commuters? Imagine if we could do that on the roads!

Besides, doesn't the same basically happen in all large transit stations? Visitors/tourists/noobs tend to stick around the comfy areas with the service counters, seats and arrival/departure boards, while regulars go stand on the platform, as close as humanly possible to where the doors won't open for another 15 minutes?

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Which is a very good reason to put a big board in the Station Hall when commuter rail arrives. You're not going to have a ton of people who will wait for their trains in the Great Hall, but that would allow for the option to be there. I do agree that Union Station is more of a destination in itself than a functional part of the transit experience (asides from Amtrak).

For now.

The problem DUS planners had was what to do with Union Station during those years when commuter traffic is slowly building. Due to how the project was bundled, development moneys had to be spent on Union Station at the same time the train shed and the Underground were being constructed. Obviously, for the next two to five years, the Great Hall will be a far larger space than required to handle people using this station.

However, this WILL change. By 2024, Union Station will be busier than it has ever been, IMO. When 200,000+* riders using the entire DUS facility per day the DUS Great Hall will become very crowded at times.

For now, however, the Great Hall will be somewhat of a tourist destination.

*This defines ridership, not the number of individuals that use the facility, and, includes perhaps 80,000 commuters who use the facility twice a day (160,000 rides.)

**********

The shortest distance from DUS Light, the Underground, and, the Commuter train shed to Coors field is THROUGH Union Station. When and if the Rockies becoming a winner, crowds of people will pass through the Great Hall to and from games.

[mr1138]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

I do agree that Union Station is more of a destination in itself than a functional part of the transit experience (asides from Amtrak).

I will go ahead and "third" this sentiment. The station absolutely feels like a destination, a national caliber one at that. And it's in the perfect location to act in such a role... right at Denver's doorstep.

I don't feel that demand for Union Station will EVER be what Wizened fears it will be. I could be wrong I suppose, but if I am and we have that much transit demand, then I will consider Denver's transit system a major success and we can then figure out how to fix the problem. There is very little consensus on this point; in fact most of the Denver crowd has long been voicing fears that the site plan "downplays" the historic building, and provides too much capacity for riders to exit the train platforms in just about every direction except through the building itself. And I agree... locals will quickly learn the shortcut exits, but new arrivals to town will likely still gravitate toward the main building.

Now that I've seen the station itself in person, this all makes perfect sense to me. As a daily transit user, I would probably avoid going through the historic building too. But if I were headed out on vacation, I could easily see myself spending time hanging out at the Terminal Bar before heading to the airport. Or for a nightcap after a meal in LoDo before riding the train home. And for visitors it provides the perfect welcome mat. It's the first point you feel like you've really arrived in town (cause lets face it, Airports are traveler's limbo-land). It's the perfect place to get your bearings and maybe a bite to eat before a short taxi ride to your destination. Add in the high-quality, largely local retail and the hotel, and this is all the activity the station needs to be a vibrant destination. Quite frankly, the deliberate separation of these two user groups was a good move, and the station is every bit as good as I hoped it would be.