The future of Hamilton's public transit

[coalminecanary]

Originally Posted by hamiltonguy

The Bus Bays at TH&B do not sit empty all day.

Switching to city buses at the TH&B Station is already easy, although perhaps they should add signs to make it clearer.

The Gore Park Buses should be relocated to the expanded MacNab Terminal

But I agree about James North Station, we at least need a Downtown to waterfront streetcar to link it with major employment and tourist areas.

No, the bays are not 100% empty but neither is the area bustling with bus activity. The capacity is there, especially if you utilize the space in front of the station.

I still don't understand the reasoning behind building at MacNab when we already have the TH&B built and underutilized. Is it because you are used to the buses being there? It is a waste of money and it makes it more difficult for people coming into town to find their local bus connection.

[markbarbera]

I would suggest laying track back down along Ferguson, connecting the CN rail to the CP spur. GO Trains arriving from Toronto could come in via the main CN line, stop at James North, then travel south along the new Ferguson rail and loop back west into the GO Centre on Hunter. The train would then be positioned to head westward via the CP spur back to Aldershot Station to Union.

[DC83]

^^ Amen, Coalmine. I don't know if I'm the only one that understands 100% of what you're saying, but can't understand why others don't?

The GO Stn is rediculously underused even WITH Toronto Expresses running every 30 mins along with the other GO routes and the Greyhound/Coach Canada on the other side.
Currently, 4 of the 9 bays on the eastern half of hub are being used. I believe there are 7 bays on the western half. Maybe 3 or 4 of those are used... I'm not 100% sure as I never use that side, usually just the GO side.
There are also 2 or 3 'bays' at the southern edge of the back lot which is currently used for the HSR's 51 University (I believe).

So there are potentially 5-9 open spots in the back bays, not to mention the AMPLE amount of space along Hunter St infront of the TH&B.
So they could potentially fit 14-18 Bus Stops/Bays infront and behind the TH&B in it's current state.

Why not utilize this unused space and give Drivers, Riders & Visitors alike a seemless, simple, climate-controled entry to the city while being able to marvel at the beauty that is the TH&B?!?!? (as well as keeping our Drivers safe, happy, and able to use a washroom).

ps: It's already built James St N is not. What's more economical? Really?

[coalminecanary]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

I would suggest laying track back down along Ferguson, connecting the CN rail to the CP spur. GO Trains arriving from Toronto could come in via the main CN line, stop at James North, then travel south along the new Ferguson rail and loop back west into the GO Centre on Hunter. The train would then be positioned to head westward via the CP spur back to Aldershot Station to Union.

I love this idea. Once again, it comes down to will.

[coalminecanary]

Originally Posted by DC83

Currently, 4 of the 9 bays on the eastern half of hub are being used. I believe there are 7 bays on the western half. Maybe 3 or 4 of those are used... I'm not 100% sure as I never use that side, usually just the GO side.

Some of the "used" bays are dedicated to long distance coaches which only come in once every hour or less. A lot of these buses could share one bay with some tweaks to scheduling. Or there could be one or two long distance bays used for unloading, then the bus parks across the lot if it needs to layover for a while before loading back up. Anyway, I think the city has already studied this and the capacity is there. We could physically be utilizing TH&B as a terminal tomorrow if we really wanted to.

[HAMRetrofit]

Since we are talking about major infrastructure projects. The best way to have reconnected the TH&B line back to the CN line would have been to build an entirely new track parallel to the Red Hill Creek expressway. The section of track that runs parallel to the escarpment could have been improved to handle passenger service. This would give fast straight through service and would not interfere with traffic. The project could have been tendered with the highway project to significantly reduce costs.

[hamiltonguy]

The Thing about the "Gage" line (By the way, it's called the Belt Line) is that in order to widen it, straighten it, and grade seperate you have to knock down HUNDREDS of buildings. Buildings are built right up to the track and if you've ever seen a train go down that line it's quite amazing how little clearance they have.

The Problems with a second line to Niagara is the main demand for Niagara-Toronto commuter service are in Grimsby-St.Catharines not Welland.

And the problems with a TH&B terminal are as follows:

1)Big Detour for East-West Rapid Transit which would either result in a drastic increase in crosstown transit times or a disconnected transit system

2)The main employment areas in Downtown are further North than Hunter Street

3)Hunter Street has limited capacity and could not by itself even hold all the buses terminating downtown meaning MacNab has to be used for some (I believe this is what the city report says)

4)Stopping at Hunter as a terminal then continuing on for 2 blocks will just increase travel times for the majority of commuters.

5) If the East End Go Extension by the CN line is implemented, then East-West bus users won't be heading to the TH&B station anyways.

6) A Terminal at MacNab has potential for TOD on top of it.

7) I can't really see how it provides any benefits that can't be provided by better signage directing people to city bus stops at Hunter Street.

8) The City has already decided on MacNab and energies are better spent advocating LRT over BRT than fighting over the location of a terminal

[hamiltonguy]

Originally Posted by HAMRetrofit

Since we are talking about major infrastructure projects. The best way to have reconnected the TH&B line back to the CN line would have been to build an entirely new track parallel to the Red Hill Creek expressway. The section of track that runs parallel to the escarpment could have been improved to handle passenger service. This would give fast straight through service and would not interfere with traffic. The project could have been tendered with the highway project to significantly reduce costs.

That's probably the only way to do it, although travel times would be longer than the CN line.

This is a problem as Metrolinx's survey on transit use shows that travel time is a HUGE factor on how used a transit line is. The CN line is barely competitive let alone the Downtown Detour proposed.

[HAMRetrofit]

The Red Hill Creek option is the only fairly realistic choice. The $100+ million for the project would be better spent on urban renewal projects including removing the rail yard off the west harbor and building a new train station on James. The new station would be used to stimulate TOD closer to the waterfront.

I can understand the sentiment for the TH&B station but it is just not the best option. Hamilton is a small city and is actually quite easy to get around in its current format. Visitors are not going to be confused by two stations as long as an efficient transit link is offered between them.

[go_leafs_go02]

I still like my idea. Heck we can tear down houses for widening highways, why can't we tear down houses to widen a railway.

as far as I know, none of the houses I propose to remove in my idea are really worth mentioning. I haven't been in that neighbourhood, but in this thread, someone said that the neighbourhood is pretty run down and it would probably help out a fair bit if it removed and some gleaming new development (like a GO station or terminal to connect to Centre Mall) was built.

Once again..my highly unrealistic, costly, but awesome idea. --> http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UT...1c3c&z=13&om=0

[coalminecanary]

Originally Posted by hamiltonguy

The Thing about the "Gage" line (By the way, it's called the Belt Line) is that in order to widen it, straighten it, and grade seperate you have to knock down HUNDREDS of buildings. Buildings are built right up to the track and if you've ever seen a train go down that line it's quite amazing how little clearance they have.

I understand that using this line as is would be nearly impossible, and that it would be a huge (seemingly impossible) project. I don't think that that line is really a viable solution. That being said, see my points above about thinking big...

Originally Posted by hamiltonguy

The Problems with a second line to Niagara is the main demand for Niagara-Toronto commuter service are in Grimsby-St.Catharines not Welland.

... because there is currently no service there?

Originally Posted by hamiltonguy

And the problems with a TH&B terminal are as follows:

1)Do you mean a big detour for LRT? Or do you mean a big detour for Windsor->Toronto VIA? I have already proposed one way of getting LRT through Hunter.

2)It's all about perspective. MacNab is closer to jackson square, but Hunter is as close (or closer) to McMaster, the courthouse, City Hall plus any businesses east of hughson

3)Hunter street alone doesn't have the capacity, but hunter in conjunction with the huge area behind the station does.

4)As I said before, terminal stops don't always mean a long term break. It depends on the route and the schedule. It could be just a standard stop for some routes and a layover for others.

5) Those GO buses will only go to the east without stopping at Hunter? I don't know much about this

6) A Terminal at Hunter has potential for TOD all around it in existing buildings and empty lots

7) How about looking like a world class city to visitors instead of a rinky dink outfit where you have to walk to a random bus stop across the street when you arrive via train.

8) Can you link to the report that outlines their final decision? Last I heard they were closest to finalizing moving Gore buses to Hunter... This was verbally from city staff though, so I can't really verify the accuracy.

I guess I just feel personally strongly about having a central transit terminal. We are already going to be facing a reality of having two separated GO stations. HSR needs a presence at one of these. A third completely separate transit terminal is a bad idea. I am also against spending money to build something when we already have something -- something really beautiful -- something we can be proud of -- something we can use immediately if only we rework some routes and schedules -- which badly need reworking regardless. We can't afford to spend money on something we don't need to build.

[go_leafs_go02]

Well, another dream plan drafted up on Google Maps focusing on hamilton Transit.

Enjoy.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UT...462db60b3fac0c

My idea how to expand incorporate the TH & B system for bus routes.

I'm considering working on a HSR routes map for all of Hamilton, and I'll let you edit it, so you can revise/edit your bus routes in the future. Possibly. See if I have the time/motivation for it.

[DC83]

Originally Posted by coalminecanary

I guess I just feel personally strongly about having a central transit terminal. We are already going to be facing a reality of having two separated GO stations. HSR needs a presence at one of these. A third completely separate transit terminal is a bad idea. I am also against spending money to build something when we already have something -- something really beautiful -- something we can be proud of -- something we can use immediately if only we rework some routes and schedules -- which badly need reworking regardless. We can't afford to spend money on something we don't need to build.

Exactly. It's built. It's underused. USE IT! Wouldn't the lot between CIBC & Pigott be best suited for Business Development (possibly a HighRise) since this is the central business district?

People in Toronto have to walk more than 2 blocks to reach their CBD offices once they get off a GO Train/Bus or VIA at Union. Why can't business people in Hamilton do the same? Infact, I see more 'business-type' people around MacDowntown/Courthouse area than I do when I'm in Gore Park?? I see them every day as I walk up John to my house.

And for those already using the TH&B as their final (commuter) destination, they already walk out front to meet their pick up, or their cabs, etc. Why not give them the option of walking out to PUBLIC TRANSIT where they don't have to use a car. They can currently a) walk out the doors to a cab & pay $15+ to get home or b) walk out the door to a waiting bus that will take them ANYWHERE in the city for $2.40.

There IS room.... plenty of room for these buses. The McNab terminal just makes no sense when there is a perfectly fine, under-utilized terminal currently begging to be used.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by DC83

People in Toronto have to walk more than 2 blocks to reach their CBD offices once they get off a GO Train/Bus or VIA at Union. Why can't business people in Hamilton do the same? Infact, I see more 'business-type' people around MacDowntown/Courthouse area than I do when I'm in Gore Park?? I see them every day as I walk up John to my house.

Answer: The Path system. Climate controlled, underground. It's not the easiest to navigate. I always get lost in it but those who know it, it's very convenient.

I hate walking outside in the winter. I will do everything I can do stay warm and on a bus or whatever. I can't stand the cold, and the majority of people are like me.

You have to make it convienent, and comfortable.

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by hamiltonguy

And the problems with a TH&B terminal are as follows:

1)Big Detour for East-West Rapid Transit which would either result in a drastic increase in crosstown transit times or a disconnected transit system

Sorry I completely disagree. Hamilton GO Centre is not too far from the proposed east-west transitway.

2)The main employment areas in Downtown are further North than Hunter Street

by what, say 100 metres? Not significant enough to impact on commute.

3)Hunter Street has limited capacity and could not by itself even hold all the buses terminating downtown meaning MacNab has to be used for some (I believe this is what the city report says)

The GO Centre can easily be retrofitted to increase capacity. The property surrounding it is severely underutilized. All it needs is the political will to do so.

4)Stopping at Hunter as a terminal then continuing on for 2 blocks will just increase travel times for the majority of commuters.

If there is travel time added, it would be insignificant. Hunter Street GO just is not that far from downtown to negatively impact on commute times.

5) If the East End Go Extension by the CN line is implemented, then East-West bus users won't be heading to the TH&B station anyways.

GO will not be abandoning the Hunter Street GO Terminal. The proposed James North GO Station is in addition to, not in place of, Hamilton GO Centre. The Hunter Street GO Centre is GO Transit's hub for Hamilton-Halton-Niagara, and they own it outright. In fact, they are currently renovating the ticket centre at Hamilton GO Centre to upgrade its facilities.

Furthermore, all current east-west HSR routes can travel directly to (or within close walking distance) of the Hunter Street terminal. If they were to head to James North station instead, a bus transfer would be added to the mix, which would have a significantly negative impact on commute times.

6) A Terminal at MacNab has potential for TOD on top of it.

...as does the current Hamilton GO Centre

8) The City has already decided on MacNab and energies are better spent advocating LRT over BRT than fighting over the location of a terminal

The city has not made a final decision on the McNab Street terminal.

I have made several posts here emphasizing the importance of integrating transit systems. A McNab Street terminal isolates the HSR system from GO and all other inter-city transit lines serving Hamilton. Hamilton GO integrates them. This in itself makes Hunter GO a far more superior location for a downtown HSR terminal.

[DC83]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

You have to make it convienent, and comfortable.

TH&B is climate controlled... that's pretty comfortable

Ya, PATH is pretty confusing! Try the Montreal Underground :s It's like 10X the size! haha

But yes, a comfortable atmosphere would be needed. Good thing they just re-did Huhgson St which looks FANTASTIC bewteen TH&B & King St!

[hamiltonguy]

There is no service anywhere in Niagara.

The reason demand is in St. Catharines and Grimsby rather than Welland is because they are both bigger and closer to Toronto.

The point about TOD was that the HSR could benefit financially by developing on top of their new Terminal at the MacNab street location.

As for the report, it was one of the other users who posted it about 6 months ago either here or on skyscrapercity. If they are (still) here I hope that they post it and make things a bit either.

Regarding the whole short stop at a terminal thing, isn't that what the terminal is already? I see no reason why enhancing the current stops at Hunter Street and having the final terminus right in the core are mutually exclusive.

Regarding the East-West LRT, would you please repost your plan to have it access Hunter Street terminal while still providing decent service to the CBD International Village, and Downtown BIA areas without an added travel time of more than a couple of minutes. If you can provide a resonable plan to do this I will be impressed and concede this point to you.

[hamiltonguy]

Originally Posted by DC83

Exactly. It's built. It's underused. USE IT! Wouldn't the lot between CIBC & Pigott be best suited for Business Development (possibly a HighRise) since this is the central business district?

People in Toronto have to walk more than 2 blocks to reach their CBD offices once they get off a GO Train/Bus or VIA at Union. Why can't business people in Hamilton do the same? Infact, I see more 'business-type' people around MacDowntown/Courthouse area than I do when I'm in Gore Park?? I see them every day as I walk up John to my house.

And for those already using the TH&B as their final (commuter) destination, they already walk out front to meet their pick up, or their cabs, etc. Why not give them the option of walking out to PUBLIC TRANSIT where they don't have to use a car. They can currently a) walk out the doors to a cab & pay $15+ to get home or b) walk out the door to a waiting bus that will take them ANYWHERE in the city for $2.40.

There IS room.... plenty of room for these buses. The McNab terminal just makes no sense when there is a perfectly fine, under-utilized terminal currently begging to be used.

Ummm you can walk right out of TH&B and catch a city bus so I don't get why it has to be a TERMINAL for city buses.

OK so lets say Union station was underground at King and Bay, who in their right mind would move a transit hub further away from employment centres to where it is now.

The metrolinx survey identifies two problems with transit:

It is not fast enough and it needs to be sped up AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE

Good service has to be close to the origin and destination to achieve more usage. While Union Station works it is not the ideal location. No one should want to make people walk FURTHER to catch a bus.

[SteelTown]

I think the City is looking at an idea to close down Hughson St to cars and perhaps install those same type of tarp used at Eastgate along Hughson St to connect the two stations in the future.

[hamiltonguy]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

Sorry I completely disagree. Hamilton GO Centre is not too far from the proposed east-west transitway.

Either way it involves 2 left turns to get there, or a walk. And I though we were against having to travel long distances by foot to transfer.

Quite frankly any time wasted on those turns and the travel to Hunter Street GO will be time riders will be thinking "why didn't I just drive"

by what, say 100 metres? Not significant enough to impact on commute.

Actually I checked, it's 400 to King and James which is about an additional five minute walk, or more if you are destined for the Market, or King William etc.

The GO Centre can easily be retrofitted to increase capacity. The property surrounding it is severely underutilized. All it needs is the political will to do so.

Any additional building would have to be across the street because there is only a small Gas station on the south side

If there is travel time added, it would be insignificant. Hunter Street GO just is not that far from downtown to negatively impact on commute times.

If you make people take another five minutes either walking or sitting at Hunter Street that's five more minutes you've made them take compared to a car.

GO will not be abandoning the Hunter Street GO Terminal. The proposed James North GO Station is in addition to, not in place of, Hamilton GO Centre. The Hunter Street GO Centre is GO Transit's hub for Hamilton-Halton-Niagara, and they own it outright. In fact, they are currently renovating the ticket centre at Hamilton GO Centre to upgrade its facilities.

I never implied it was going to. But one would assume people in the East end would go to an East End Go Station on the Niagara Bound all day line rather than to the downtown centre, which would primarily be used by Mountain travelers and downtown residents.

Furthermore, all current east-west HSR routes can travel directly to (or within close walking distance) of the Hunter Street terminal. If they were to head to James North station instead, a bus transfer would be added to the mix, which would have a significantly negative impact on commute times.

I was never suggesting the Buses travel to James North instead, I was instead assuming people in the East End would go to a Station around the Centre Mall on the Niagara Line rather than Bus it all the way Dowtown, if they were going to use the GO.

...as does the current Hamilton GO Centre

You Can't really build on top of the GO Centre?

The city has not made a final decision on the McNab Street terminal.

Ooops I thought it did. Either way the report gave me a strong feeling that it was by far the preferred option.

I have made several posts here emphasizing the importance of integrating transit systems. A McNab Street terminal isolates the HSR system from GO and all other inter-city transit lines serving Hamilton. Hamilton GO integrates them. This in itself makes Hunter GO a far more superior location for a downtown HSR terminal.

Nothing says the HSR Buses can't have a stop at the GO Centre (almost all of them already do this) while not terminating until the Downtown core.

I've said it before and i'll say it again: Terminating at Hunter Street will not improve connections with GO, but will cause headaches and problems for tonnes of Commuters.