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  #241  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2009, 1:08 AM
paradigm4 paradigm4 is offline
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Originally Posted by NetMapel View Post
Well, you guys should also know that the only bus connecting White Rock to downtown Vancouver, the #351, is facing a re-route. The route will take the busy to Richmond instead and we have to take the Canada Line to go downtown. I don't get why we cannot have a separate bus going to Richmond instead. Having to transfer like that to go downtown is so annoying and troublesome...
Because the 351 always gets stuck in traffic past the Oak St Bridge, so transferring riders to the Canada Line will not only boost reliability, but also speed - trip time will decrease. Plus, frequency of the 351 will go from 30 mins to every 15. Frankly, those who complain don't know how good they've got it with access to transit service like that.
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  #242  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2009, 1:08 AM
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i kinda agree with white rock being a bit to much right now
but i would say newton town centre deserves a skytrain connection as it stands newton is surreys second most populated community. theres all this talk of giving guildford and fleetwood when together there population isnt even greater then newtons
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  #243  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2009, 1:45 AM
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Originally Posted by NetMapel View Post
I don't get why we cannot have a separate bus going to Richmond instead. Having to transfer like that to go downtown is so annoying and troublesome...
And since TransLink have limited amount of resource.. a new route to Bridgeport means service must be taken away from the Vancouver route.. would you rather have the bus that goes to Bridgeport every 15 minutes, or have both routes running at about every 50 minutes?

If you're interested, the new northbound #351 schedule leaving White Rock Centre and going to Bridgeport (ie. no short-turned trips)... Compare this to the current schedule, you'll see its much much better.
Code:
4:27a	6:09a	8:34a	10:49a	1:04p	3:15p	5:33p	7:55p
4:42a	6:24a	8:49a	11:04a	1:19p	3:30p	5:51p	8:10p
4:57a	6:40a	9:04a	11:19a	1:33p	3:45p	6:05p	8:26p
5:10a	6:56a	9:19a	11:34a	1:48p	4:00p	6:21p	8:41p
5:20a	7:12a	9:34a	11:49a	2:03p	4:15p	6:35p	9:11p
5:31a	7:29a	9:49a	12:04p	2:18p	4:30p	6:51p	9:41p
5:41a	7:47a	10:04a	12:19p	2:32p	4:45p	7:07p	10:16p
5:50a	8:04a	10:19a	12:34p	2:46p	5:01p	7:23p	11:16p
5:59a	8:19a	10:34a	12:49p	3:01p	5:17p	7:39p	12:16x
Southbound would be similar, with the first bus leaving Bridgeport at around 5:10 and last bus around 1:35
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  #244  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2009, 2:37 AM
DKaz DKaz is offline
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Seems odd for the buses to go every 10 minutes from 5:10am to 6:10am then 15 minutes afterwards.
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  #245  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2009, 3:12 AM
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Originally Posted by LeftCoaster View Post
The Evergreen line isnt being built for Port Moody. Port Moody isnt the terminus of the Evergreen line. Port Moody just happens to lie rather fortunately along the NE route's line. Port moody also happens to lie within a continuously urban area, without any large swaths of undeveloped land between it and Burnaby.
I do understand that, however it just irks me that there is so much money pumped into transit North of the Fraser, and the South of the Fraser region doesn't even have an adequate bus system, which is the most basic of public transport. Another thing that really bugs me is the fact that it seems to be the Vancouver/Burnaby crowd that whines and complains about the Gateway project, when they don't understand that because people South of the Fraser are not even given basic public transport, it means that projects like Gateway end up being necessary since it drives everyone into their cars. For the amount of money put into Translink by the residents South of the Fraser, the only thing to show for it are hand-me-down buses from the North of the Fraser.

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Originally Posted by LeftCoaster View Post
Why would you want LRT to South Surrey and White Rock? Why not run the LRT down King George and have a commuter rail line running from White Rock into surrey and then continuing along the existing rail lines into Vancouver. It would result in a much faster trip into surrey and especially downtown and is a much more efficient allocation of funds.
Why not? It gives people options and it's cheaper than Skytrain. The biggest goal should be connecting communities South of the Fraser together, with Surrey City Centre as the centre of it all. If Metro Vancouver wants Surrey to succeed, this should be a key focus.

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Originally Posted by LeftCoaster View Post
I'm sorry how is the UBC line a tiny fraction of the population? Despite the large size of the SOF communities, this hypothetical line down the King George would serve less people than a UBC line and staggeringly less businesses. Also why would UBC build a surrey campus? Many satellite campuses is not necessarily a good thing. I think one of the few redeeming qualities of UBC is their segregated campus.
Actually having a separate campus is a hindrance, not to mention a traffic nightmare. SFU Surrey has been a huge success, so why wouldn't a hypothetical UBC Surrey have the same success? In addition, why should public transit be hindered by the ALR, even considering that the population of Surrey is expected to meet or exceed Vancouver's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftCoaster View Post
For the record I dont live on either the proposed UBC line or White Rock line.
I also don't live in either area. In a perfect world, both would already built. But unfortunately, that will never happen. If they want to truly plan for the future, South of the Fraser is the way to go. Broadway definitely needs an increase in capacity, but I just don't believe Skytrain is the way to do it... even though Vancouverites seem to go ape sh*t over it.
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  #246  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2009, 3:43 AM
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Whalleyboy Whalleyboy is offline
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i would say skytrain is the way to go for broadway
but i wouldnt mind seeing ubc start up in surrey too though=P

also i think skytrain is the way to go towards newton too
to from newton on words i think a bus would surfice for a good little while
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  #247  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2009, 3:49 AM
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I think the distances get to be too big to make extending skytrain worthwhile. It's just too long of a ride with too many stations.
It's better to differentiate services into a downtown surrey-centric LRT network for trips within north surrey, south surrey/white rock,
and north delta and a regional network for longer trips south of the fraser. It can start off as B-lines and commuter buses and
eventually switch over to rail line by line as ridership grows. It should also anticipate future connections across the fraser that may
happen decades down the road.

I think something like this would be pretty good for a ~4 million person Metro Vancouver. It might even be a bit too much. I'd be ok
with a LRT to UBC from Arbutus, for example.
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  #248  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2009, 4:17 AM
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Originally Posted by nickinacan View Post
I do understand that, however it just irks me that there is so much money pumped into transit North of the Fraser, and the South of the Fraser region doesn't even have an adequate bus system, which is the most basic of public transport.
I think most people would think that the cost of running bus service is the same between Vancouver and South of Fraser, but actually, it cost a lot more for SOF as the ridership is lower, trips are longer, bus are more empty, etc. Transit service is slowly improving, but you can't expect them to improve the service all at once and have all those empty buses running around for the first year or two before ridership picks up.

And this data from 2007 is taken from the RTM phase B document:
Vancouver:
4830 service hours and 363,000 originating revenue riders = 75.2 revenue riders/hr

South of Fraser:
1652 service hours and 60,000 originating revenue riders = 36.3 revenue riders/hr

The average fare for 1 zone travel is $1.22 in 2007.
The average cost per hour for bus is $104 in 2007.

Below are just estimation based on the figure above to give you the basic idea, it may be way off...

Assume all passengers are paying one zone fare and bus service all cost the same in each region and regardless of vehicle type and size, then:
Vancouver:
$12.26 subsidy per hour -> $59,200 subsidy per day

South of Fraser:
$59.72 subsidy per hour -> $98,650 subsidy per day

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whalleyboy View Post
also i think skytrain is the way to go towards newton too
to from newton on words i think a bus would surfice for a good little while
I would hope for a SkyTrain to Newton and another line to Langley (via Cloverdale), then a LRT connect both terminals with Scott Road station using the old interurban route. And then a commuter rail that follow the same route as Amtrak from White Rock to Downtown.
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  #249  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2009, 4:54 AM
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i think the old interurban line could be used as the lrt connecting newton and cloverdale area
and i really hope if skytrain does go to langley it via cloverdale
i would so take skytrain to canada day and the rodeo

could you image how packed those two things would get with some skytrain access?
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  #250  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2009, 5:07 AM
vansky vansky is offline
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the rail south of marine drive looks nice, could use a fast train or sth on the existing rail, and nice map.
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  #251  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2009, 6:00 AM
paradigm4 paradigm4 is offline
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Originally Posted by nname View Post
I think most people would think that the cost of running bus service is the same between Vancouver and South of Fraser, but actually, it cost a lot more for SOF as the ridership is lower, trips are longer, bus are more empty, etc. Transit service is slowly improving, but you can't expect them to improve the service all at once and have all those empty buses running around for the first year or two before ridership picks up.

And this data from 2007 is taken from the RTM phase B document:
Vancouver:
4830 service hours and 363,000 originating revenue riders = 75.2 revenue riders/hr

South of Fraser:
1652 service hours and 60,000 originating revenue riders = 36.3 revenue riders/hr

The average fare for 1 zone travel is $1.22 in 2007.
The average cost per hour for bus is $104 in 2007.

Below are just estimation based on the figure above to give you the basic idea, it may be way off...

Assume all passengers are paying one zone fare and bus service all cost the same in each region and regardless of vehicle type and size, then:
Vancouver:
$12.26 subsidy per hour -> $59,200 subsidy per day

South of Fraser:
$59.72 subsidy per hour -> $98,650 subsidy per day


I would hope for a SkyTrain to Newton and another line to Langley (via Cloverdale), then a LRT connect both terminals with Scott Road station using the old interurban route. And then a commuter rail that follow the same route as Amtrak from White Rock to Downtown.
This argument is rather moot.

It's a bell curve. Look at the numbers.

Vancouver has 4830 service hours and thus 360,000 riders.

SoF has 1652 service hours and thus 60,000 riders.

The better the system is, the more riders it will attract. Just imagine how many riders there might be if service in the SoF was decent.

Frankly, claiming the SoF buses are chugging along empty just goes to show how out of whack with reality you are. Very few routes lack riders.

And I am more convinced than ever that not matter where you live in Metro Vancouver, we are quite open to switching to transit than other cities and regions - as long as the service is quick, comfortable, and affordable.

Built it and they will come, anywhere in the region.
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  #252  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2009, 6:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradigm4 View Post
This argument is rather moot.

It's a bell curve. Look at the numbers.

Vancouver has 4830 service hours and thus 360,000 riders.

SoF has 1652 service hours and thus 60,000 riders.

The better the system is, the more riders it will attract. Just imagine how many riders there might be if service in the SoF was decent.

Frankly, claiming the SoF buses are chugging along empty just goes to show how out of whack with reality you are. Very few routes lack riders.

And I am more convinced than ever that not matter where you live in Metro Vancouver, we are quite open to switching to transit than other cities and regions - as long as the service is quick, comfortable, and affordable.

Built it and they will come, anywhere in the region.
What I meant in my previous post is:

1. People always think that the bus service in Vancouver cost much more to run than the one in Surrey, and people on SoF are subsiding all those frequent bus routes in Vancouver and getting nothing in return. But in reality, the cost are more or less equal due to the difference in ridership. And no, I didn't say they are running empty, I'm just saying that most of the route isn't as full as the one in Vancouver thus they tend to cost more to run. 36 riders per hour is probably equal to somewhere between half and full seat load, on average.

2. Bringing Surrey's transit service up to Vancouver or even Burnaby's standard takes time... as right now they are bringing up service level at the speed of a few routes per season. I'm saying that if they increase the service to Vancouver's level all in one night as some people wishes, expect most of the bus running empty and Translink will go bankrupt within a few months, as building up ridership takes time. Don't expect everyone to switch to transit at the same time.
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  #253  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2009, 3:59 PM
DKaz DKaz is offline
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Originally Posted by fever View Post
IMAGE: Big honking map.
I like that but, I still maintain that West Coast Express should still maintain 5 trips each way via Burrard Inlet. Port Moody residents don't deserve to lose their 25 minute trip to Vancouver... look how busy Port Moody Station is:



At least a dashed line saying "Peak Hour Direction Only"

Also Line #4 follows the DMU line that was proposed a few years back. They had stations along Kent serving that industrial area near the Knight St. Bridge, a station servicing the industrial area in southwest Burnaby, and also one around Big Bend. I think it would be really beneficial to serve those three employment destinations.
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  #254  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2009, 4:49 PM
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Originally Posted by fever View Post
Love your map, hope you dont mind if I offer my 2c.

- I agree with a few of the other posters that the existing alignment of the WCE along the Barnet should stay, unless a better track agreement can be worked out using the central route. If need be evergreen line from port moody station to Braid is a relatively short route.

- I love the two routes coming out of Abbotsford, and I think that would be an ever bigger impetus to keep the Barnett alignment for WCE, allowing for two separate routes.

- I like the alignment of your "marine drive" commuter rail, but given its location in the middle of the city don't you think that route would be better served by LRT? I had always thought a LRT line down that ROW would be perfect.

- I like your separate LRT systems in Surrey and Richmond, something I think Translink should pursue, but I always thought the alignment of the purple line should go straight west after Surrey Central Station and drop down Scott Road, opening up Scott Road for densification.

- Three stations definitely not needed in West Van for the NS/Howe Sound commuter rail. Dundurave and Park royal would be more than enough, as it only takes about 10 minutes to walk from the middle of Ambleside to Park Royal and Bus service is very frequent. It could be advantageous to eliminate the Marine Drive WV stops all together and run an LRT/Streetcar line along Marine Drive from Dundarave to Phibbs exchange, with a possible extension down Mt Seymour Parkway pending future densification.... although this line would be quite a ways in the future.

Also what program did you use to make that map? Photoshop? It looks great.
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  #255  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2009, 7:27 PM
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fever's map is well done. One forgotten fact about White Rock though is that we do have a rail line running along the coast all the way to Delta and Tsawwassen. I've always wondered if it is possible to link up that line by extending it north of Delta to connect to Richmond's Arbutus line. I think that could be something interesting as well.
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  #256  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2009, 8:05 PM
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Originally Posted by nickinacan View Post
I do understand that, however it just irks me that there is so much money pumped into transit North of the Fraser, and the South of the Fraser region doesn't even have an adequate bus system, which is the most basic of public transport. Another thing that really bugs me is the fact that it seems to be the Vancouver/Burnaby crowd that whines and complains about the Gateway project, when they don't understand that because people South of the Fraser are not even given basic public transport, it means that projects like Gateway end up being necessary since it drives everyone into their cars. For the amount of money put into Translink by the residents South of the Fraser, the only thing to show for it are hand-me-down buses from the North of the Fraser.



Why not? It gives people options and it's cheaper than Skytrain. The biggest goal should be connecting communities South of the Fraser together, with Surrey City Centre as the centre of it all. If Metro Vancouver wants Surrey to succeed, this should be a key focus.



Actually having a separate campus is a hindrance, not to mention a traffic nightmare. SFU Surrey has been a huge success, so why wouldn't a hypothetical UBC Surrey have the same success? In addition, why should public transit be hindered by the ALR, even considering that the population of Surrey is expected to meet or exceed Vancouver's?



I also don't live in either area. In a perfect world, both would already built. But unfortunately, that will never happen. If they want to truly plan for the future, South of the Fraser is the way to go. Broadway definitely needs an increase in capacity, but I just don't believe Skytrain is the way to do it... even though Vancouverites seem to go ape sh*t over it.
the NE falls into the GVRDs growth plan and they are expected to absorb a certain amount of population and prepare for growth

I live in the NE and think the money should be used elsewhere first - or just use it to build a direct surrey-coquitlam line instead - as it is people wanting to go to guildford or surrey centre still have to go via new westminster and transfer etc making it a longer trip than driving

and for downtown people living in the NE they have the West Coast express so the e line is useless to them
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  #257  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2009, 8:06 PM
twoNeurons twoNeurons is offline
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Originally Posted by LeftCoaster View Post
Love your map, hope you dont mind if I offer my 2c.

- I agree with a few of the other posters that the existing alignment of the WCE along the Barnet should stay, unless a better track agreement can be worked out using the central route. If need be evergreen line from port moody station to Braid is a relatively short route.
It's not as if Port Moody will be underserved by transit. If the trip can be made more reliable, faster and serve more people on the central route, then why not?

Port Moody will be two stops (5 minutes?) from Coquitlam Station and frankly, the Coquitlam market would be much better served with a commuter train which enables them to get to Braid, Commercial and Downtown.

Quote:
- I like the alignment of your "marine drive" commuter rail, but given its location in the middle of the city don't you think that route would be better served by LRT? I had always thought a LRT line down that ROW would be perfect.
And to add to that... if you connect to the Arbutus line, where would put a commuter train around Arbutus & Broadway? And a bigger question... how you gonna run a big train like that through that corridor without sounding the nimby alert?
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  #258  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2009, 8:24 PM
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Originally Posted by nickinacan View Post
I do understand that, however it just irks me that there is so much money pumped into transit North of the Fraser, and the South of the Fraser region doesn't even have an adequate bus system, which is the most basic of public transport. Another thing that really bugs me is the fact that it seems to be the Vancouver/Burnaby crowd that whines and complains about the Gateway project, when they don't understand that because people South of the Fraser are not even given basic public transport, it means that projects like Gateway end up being necessary since it drives everyone into their cars. For the amount of money put into Translink by the residents South of the Fraser, the only thing to show for it are hand-me-down buses from the North of the Fraser.
If you would actually listen to the people that don't like Gateway, you would actually realize that they are pushing for much improved transit South of the Fraser.

The reason why transit South of the Fraser is not good is that the politicians South of the Fraser lead the fight against the vehicle levy. The funding from the vehicle levy would have resulted in much improved transit service South of the Fraser and throughout the region.

The other thing you must realize that the other reason for poor transit South of the Fraser is that most of the transportation dollars are being spent on road widening projects including the Fraser Highway, South Fraser Perimeter Road and Border Infrastructure " improvements. The Golden Ears Bridge has also chewed up around $150 million that will not be paid for by the tolls.

So if you want better transit, stop complaining and get your politicians to stop wasting money on roads and instead fund public transit.
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  #259  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2009, 8:28 PM
twoNeurons twoNeurons is offline
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Originally Posted by NetMapel View Post
fever's map is well done. One forgotten fact about White Rock though is that we do have a rail line running along the coast all the way to Delta and Tsawwassen. I've always wondered if it is possible to link up that line by extending it north of Delta to connect to Richmond's Arbutus line. I think that could be something interesting as well.
That's the one that meanders along the waterfront, right? Unfortunately that line doesn't really serve the South Surrey area very well. It only really serves the waterfront. It would be like having only Waterfront Station in Downtown Vancouver.

South Surrey is built along 152nd North/South. I can't see a way you can serve the people and the waterfront, unfortunately, due to the fact that it's built on a steep hill. A line down 152 would serve the population better. It would cross over to King George along the existing ROW at 64th Ave. Any connection to Richmond would still be better served by a line up 152 and West along the Colebrook area (just south of 56th Ave. )

Those waterfront tracks will continue to be used by freight, which doesn't move as quickly, and hopefully, a new higher-speed corridor will be built along the #99 to avoid crawling along White Rock's waterfront.

Last edited by twoNeurons; Jun 9, 2009 at 8:47 PM.
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  #260  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2009, 9:33 PM
DKaz DKaz is offline
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Originally Posted by twoNeurons View Post
It's not as if Port Moody will be underserved by transit. If the trip can be made more reliable, faster and serve more people on the central route, then why not?

Port Moody will be two stops (5 minutes?) from Coquitlam Station and frankly, the Coquitlam market would be much better served with a commuter train which enables them to get to Braid, Commercial and Downtown
I can tell you for sure that the Vancouver to Port Moody is reliable (only one congestion related delay in the past year in this section, there's been a few in the other sections), it's fast (22km in less than 25 minutes, while the remaining 43km Port Moody to Mission takes 48 minutes), if the central alignment was better then West Coast Express would've procured track time from central instead. We pay a premium to get to Vancouver fast and I only see central alignment and added stations as a detriment to our fast times. Mission commuters pay $269 and WCE is on its way to not being subsidized whatsoever. Compliment WCE, don't replace it.

WCE via Mission to Waterfront via Burrard - 30 minute peak service only.
WCE via Maple Meadows to Waterfront via Central - 30 minute service 5am to 10pm
WCE Central extension from Maple Meadows to Mission - 60 minute service when Burrard not in service.
Combined frequency Maple Meadows to Coquitlam peak - 15 minutes

Quote:
Originally Posted by twoNeurons View Post
And to add to that... if you connect to the Arbutus line, where would put a commuter train around Arbutus & Broadway? And a bigger question... how you gonna run a big train like that through that corridor without sounding the nimby alert?
The train will only run peak hours, when they should be getting for work or just getting home from work anyway. It's not like a train is waking them up at midnight.
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