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  #341  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2009, 4:00 PM
DKaz DKaz is offline
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Millenium Line was $1.167 billion for 20.3km = $57.5M/km
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  #342  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2009, 4:22 PM
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Originally Posted by nname View Post
Depend on the cost though. The West LRT line in Calgary cost about 80M per km while SkyTrain Expo Line cost 92M per km in 2008 dollars. If the Surrey LRT cost as much as the Calgary one, then I would rather prefer SkyTrain extension since there's probably only a 150M difference for a line going all the way to Langley. If the LRT can be build for, say 50M per km, then it would be a different story, but AFAIK, most recent extensions in both Edmonton and Calgary LRT cost much more than that (except the stretch with no station).
The W-LRT in Calgary is only a small portion of the existing system, and its going to be the most elaborate C-Train extension Calgary has ever built since the original line. What Surrey needs to go to Guildford and further is more or less what Calgary has running up to the NE quadrant of the city. Nothing fancy like W-LRT.
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  #343  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2009, 4:40 PM
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nnmame, your numbers are obviously way way off.
are you sure:
1. you're converting miles/kms?
2. you're not including rolling stock in there?
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  #344  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2009, 4:54 PM
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Originally Posted by flight_from_kamakura View Post
nnmame, your numbers are obviously way way off.
are you sure:
1. you're converting miles/kms?
2. you're not including rolling stock in there?
Why would you exclude rolling stock from the cost/km? Rolling stock is also purchased per km of track. Our existing network doesn't have any surplus rolling stock to donate to a new Surrey route.
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  #345  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2009, 5:08 PM
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^ because rolling stock costs will vary significantly depending on system scale. anyway, even if you include rolling stock, in a couple areas where the lrt would look like what we could expect out in surrey, you still find numbers like these:

denver trex: $10 million/km (2006)

salt lake trax: $8 million/km (2002)

take another look at charlotte or houston or phoenix (and don't forget that mile/km conversion) and these lines get pretty cheap to build. you know, unless you're going sf-style where money just disappears into a pit, or seattle/ottawa style where you plan to build underground. which isn't to say that it ought to be the way to go in every case or necessarily in surrey, but it's certainly way cheaper than sky train.
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  #346  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2009, 6:08 PM
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$8m/km? The city can hardly manage that for a single tracked link that already had ROW, and no vehicle expense.

I think we need to compare apples to apples. If we look at Evergreen, with a large bored tunnel and track through built up urban areas, or the UBC link, with an almost entirely bored tunnel line, we can't compare that with a theoretical line in Surrey.

You can argue a little with the methodology used in the BC Gov't study of Evergreen comparing LRT to Skytrain, but if you take their data as fact, Skytrain is the obvious choice.

On the other hand, if you can show me LRT to UBC will be able to handle 80% of the passenger load, and take 120% of the travel time compared to Skytrain, but realistically cost 50% as much, I'll listen.
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  #347  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2009, 7:17 PM
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Originally Posted by DKaz View Post
Millenium Line was $1.167 billion for 20.3km = $57.5M/km
My numbers are in 2009$ (57.5M in 2000$ = 68.4M in 2009$)

Quote:
Originally Posted by flight_from_kamakura View Post
^ because rolling stock costs will vary significantly depending on system scale. anyway, even if you include rolling stock, in a couple areas where the lrt would look like what we could expect out in surrey, you still find numbers like these:

denver trex: $10 million/km (2006)

salt lake trax: $8 million/km (2002)
For the LRT lines, I only include the projects with completion date after 2005. All data are from the project site, not third-party site where the number can be inflated or deflated. And obviously, those number includes train, stations, and OMC if necessary (otherwise, how would you operate it?)

Dallas - I forget where I get the number from, but even with your link, its 23M/km without stations, trains, and OMC.
Salt Lake -
Mid-Jordan: 452M USD/16km = 35M/km CAD
Airport: 290M USD/10km = 30M/km CAD
And those are without train (they bought them from San Jose) and with existing ROW (with tracks!)
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  #348  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2009, 9:54 PM
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where are you getting these numbers? like do you have links or a document of some kind? i'd be interested to take a look at that.
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  #349  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2009, 9:57 PM
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Originally Posted by flight_from_kamakura View Post
where are you getting these numbers? like do you have links or a document of some kind? i'd be interested to take a look at that.
From the project website. Generally, wikipedia will have a link to them (otherwise, they can be found by just googling).
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  #350  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2009, 10:23 PM
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On wikipedia it also says it cost $897M for 31km on the TREX. Which is $28.9 M/Km. Unless we don't plan on building stations buying rail stock or double tracking the majority of the corridor then this is going to cost a lot more than $10M /km.
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  #351  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2009, 4:08 AM
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WRT chicken and the egg -
"Growth-shaping" or "Growth-serving"
came across this post by Ed007Toronto at the Urban Toronto forum:

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Originally Posted by Ed007Toronto View Post
Why can't we build in advance?

Flushing 7 line 1920


Flushing 7 line 1940
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  #352  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2009, 9:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Zassk View Post
Ladner and Tsawwassen have nowhere near the population or density to warrant any kind of rapid transit. It would probably be best for everyone in Metro if South Delta kept to 0% growth forever (wishful thinking, I know). It would be wasteful and inefficient to divert a south-of-Fraser commuter train to South Delta, and the Canada Line has other much higher density neighbourhoods within Richmond to target in the unlikely event that it is ever extended. The only chance of getting rapid transit to South Delta is if, as I suggested in another thread, Massey Tunnel can be decommissioned as a roadway in the future and re-used as a rail tunnel.
I don't think the tunnel would ever be closed.

Even ignoring the communities in the area, The Massey is the main link between the Ferries and Vancouver/Richmond. It's part of the link between the provincial capital and business capital.

There will always be a crossing there and I'm pretty sure because of land use and bird parks and shipping lanes in the area it will always have to be a tunnel.

The thing though is that in the rush hour, the 3 lanes for counter flow works decently well. All the crossing really needs is another 2 lane tube. Then the center tube could be a 2 lane counter flow. Then you have 4 lanes with traffic, 2 lanes against. It's all you would need.

But instead of just 2 lanes, it could also have space for a single (or double) length of LRT track.

I wouldn't put the Canada Line through there, but you could run LRT from Bridgeport, down the Shell Road ROW to the tunnel then connect all the way to the ferries. Then it would be an express, limited stop commuter rail line. While Ladner and Tsawassen aren't that big transit destinations, I think it would be good for provincial unity to offer rail service to the ferries. As well, buses from South Surrey and drivers could park at a PnR in Ladner and use the LRT to Canada Line. There is plenty of room for an LRT right of way the entire way.

It's just a pipe dream, but I don't think it would be a waste of money, and would be even cheaper than LRT through Surrey. And with riders from the ferry, would actually be used all day long (outside commutes).
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  #353  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2009, 9:51 AM
red-paladin red-paladin is offline
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Why can't we build in advance?
If you compare those shots to before and after shots of the Expo line, I'm sure you might find even more development.
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  #354  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2009, 3:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon View Post
On wikipedia it also says it cost $897M for 31km on the TREX. Which is $28.9 M/Km. Unless we don't plan on building stations buying rail stock or double tracking the majority of the corridor then this is going to cost a lot more than $10M /km.
yeah, after some clicking around, it looks like i'm gonna be wrong on this. well, sorry for the bad info at the start, i read loads of things every day and i must be getting things jumbled. sort of serves me right for slacking off so much with the work.

as an aside, i actually rode the trex a couple days ago during a quick visit to the denver area, very spacious, though i'll stick with muni on the urban development side of it.
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  #355  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2009, 5:10 PM
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Originally Posted by DKaz View Post
Millennium Line was $1.167 billion for 20.3km = $57.5M/km
I think we're all forgetting that the M-Line was started 10 years ago. I'm sure we'd be looking at about a 30% increase in that number, when adjusted for inflation and current materials prices.
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  #356  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2009, 6:44 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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Originally Posted by flight_from_kamakura View Post
yeah, after some clicking around, it looks like i'm gonna be wrong on this. well, sorry for the bad info at the start, i read loads of things every day and i must be getting things jumbled. sort of serves me right for slacking off so much with the work.
Hey kudos for checking things out objectively. I don't think anybody here is against any type of rail transit, but you just need the right technology and ROW for the speed and volume of people you're looking to move around.

There are many people in the LRT-brainwashed camp, but here at SSP we're all about reality (most anyway).
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  #357  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2009, 9:17 PM
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$10-million per km? That sounds exactly like UBC Professor Condone's plan that UBC SkyTrain's $2.8-billion could build the region 100+ kms of light rail in the region...or a few thousand Priuses, not sure how that would help.

Condon's "study" is what the LRT activists often cite in their arguments, especially Malcolm.
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  #358  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2009, 8:44 AM
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One thought I've had for a while is why not make Surrey the 'downtown core' for all the other communities South, and East of Surrey?

Why not build an LRT-type of system using the existing ROWs to connect White Rock, Abbotsford, Guildford, Delta, Aldergrove and Langley with Surrey (and each other). By having a Surrey LRT transit hub at SkyTrain King George Station, you could continue traveling to other destinations north of the Fraser (New West, Burnaby, Vancouver, Richmond) by changing from LRT to Skytrain.

Building a lot of ground-level LRT using existing ROWs would likely be cheaper than building a small section of elevated SkyTrain, and can preserve the rail transit ROWs for future use if population growth and ridership growth justifies upgrading from LRT to SkyTrain at a later date.
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  #359  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2009, 9:33 AM
Millennium2002 Millennium2002 is offline
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Originally Posted by jsbertram View Post
One thought I've had for a while is why not make Surrey the 'downtown core' for all the other communities South, and East of Surrey?

Why not build an LRT-type of system using the existing ROWs to connect White Rock, Abbotsford, Guildford, Delta, Aldergrove and Langley with Surrey (and each other). By having a Surrey LRT transit hub at SkyTrain King George Station, you could continue traveling to other destinations north of the Fraser (New West, Burnaby, Vancouver, Richmond) by changing from LRT to Skytrain.

Building a lot of ground-level LRT using existing ROWs would likely be cheaper than building a small section of elevated SkyTrain, and can preserve the rail transit ROWs for future use if population growth and ridership growth justifies upgrading from LRT to SkyTrain at a later date.
I know that LRT is an established small to medium type capacity system as defined by Bombardier, and that its cost is probably cheaper than expanding SkyTrain.

On the other hand, I still want a common fleet between the "northern" system and the "southern" system.

I think I should publish soon a map of rapid transit in Vancouver (which has been in the works for many weeks now)...
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  #360  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2009, 4:22 PM
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Originally Posted by mr.x View Post
$10-million per km? That sounds exactly like UBC Professor Condone's plan that UBC SkyTrain's $2.8-billion could build the region 100+ kms of light rail in the region...or a few thousand Priuses, not sure how that would help.

Condon's "study" is what the LRT activists often cite in their arguments, especially Malcolm.
i'm reluctant to bring this up again but, for instance, oklahoma city voters just approved a bond measure that'll see the city build 5-6 miles (8-10km) for $130 million. the figure the city's working with is $20 million per mile, which is about $12 million per km. not to be snide, but the last time i checked, mayoral chiefs of staff tasked with arranging funding and overseeing the construction of rail tended to know what they're talking about.

by the way, i'm in okc today and tulsa tomorrow, if anyone would like any photos of anything in particular, just fire over a pm! oral roberts, here i come!
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