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  #361  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2009, 5:34 PM
dreambrother808 dreambrother808 is offline
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No one's ever voted for something that ended up costing more than was promised?
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  #362  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2009, 5:48 PM
twoNeurons twoNeurons is offline
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It all about the routing.
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  #363  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2009, 5:55 PM
dreambrother808 dreambrother808 is offline
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OKC is flat and land is cheap, no?

I've driven through there and its downtown is comparable to Winnipeg from what I remember.

My friend from Houston goes on and on about how cheap it was to live in that part of the world compared to here.
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  #364  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2009, 5:58 PM
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Originally Posted by jsbertram View Post
One thought I've had for a while is why not make Surrey the 'downtown core' for all the other communities South, and East of Surrey?

Why not build an LRT-type of system using the existing ROWs to connect White Rock, Abbotsford, Guildford, Delta, Aldergrove and Langley with Surrey (and each other). By having a Surrey LRT transit hub at SkyTrain King George Station, you could continue traveling to other destinations north of the Fraser (New West, Burnaby, Vancouver, Richmond) by changing from LRT to Skytrain.

Building a lot of ground-level LRT using existing ROWs would likely be cheaper than building a small section of elevated SkyTrain, and can preserve the rail transit ROWs for future use if population growth and ridership growth justifies upgrading from LRT to SkyTrain at a later date.
I agree completely. We can meet the dual goals of establishing Surrey as a major centre, and also connect a lot of South-of-Fraser communities that have lower density but lots of growth potential. We can shape density in these communities at an earlier (and cheaper) stage than we have done in Burnaby, Richmond, New West etc., and we can also shape future commuting South-of-Fraser.
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  #365  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2009, 6:37 PM
twoNeurons twoNeurons is offline
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Originally Posted by Zassk View Post
We can shape density in these communities at an earlier (and cheaper) stage than we have done in Burnaby, Richmond, New West etc., and we can also shape future commuting South-of-Fraser.
I would compare Surrey (outside the centre) today to what Burnaby was just before SkyTrain... Burnaby grew up around its SkyTrain lines... and is still growing around them.
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  #366  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2009, 6:51 PM
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And Surrey should really push these transportation projects forward along with all the other developments. Again, the biggest problem we face in this region is this: $$$$$$$$$
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  #367  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2009, 8:26 PM
officedweller officedweller is offline
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Originally Posted by jsbertram View Post
One thought I've had for a while is why not make Surrey the 'downtown core' for all the other communities South, and East of Surrey?
That's been the plan since the 1996 Livable Region Strategic Plan.
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  #368  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2009, 8:30 PM
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  #369  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2009, 12:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbertram View Post
One thought I've had for a while is why not make Surrey the 'downtown core' for all the other communities South, and East of Surrey?

Why not build an LRT-type of system using the existing ROWs to connect White Rock, Abbotsford, Guildford, Delta, Aldergrove and Langley with Surrey (and each other). By having a Surrey LRT transit hub at SkyTrain King George Station, you could continue traveling to other destinations north of the Fraser (New West, Burnaby, Vancouver, Richmond) by changing from LRT to Skytrain.

Building a lot of ground-level LRT using existing ROWs would likely be cheaper than building a small section of elevated SkyTrain, and can preserve the rail transit ROWs for future use if population growth and ridership growth justifies upgrading from LRT to SkyTrain at a later date.
this has been my thoughts exactly!
plus the whole skytrain in guildford could screw surrey city centre up
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  #370  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2009, 1:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreambrother808 View Post
No one's ever voted for something that ended up costing more than was promised?
my sense is that you try that here and they shoot you dead.
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  #371  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2010, 12:29 AM
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Update - consultations soon

Quote:
Peace Arch News
Rapid transit discussed

By Hannah Sutherland - Peace Arch News

Published: March 11, 2010 4:00 PM
Updated: March 11, 2010 4:03 PM

Consultations on the Surrey Rapid Transit Study began this week, when stakeholders were invited to provide insight into the needs of the area.

The study, which will build on work initiated by the South of Fraser Area Transit Plan, is led by TransLink and the provincial government to examine alternatives for rapid transit in Surrey.

They are working with the cities of Surrey and Langley, as well as Metro Vancouver. As the study progresses, additional partners such as White Rock, Delta and Township of Langley are to become involved. Seven meetings are being held throughout the month – including one March 25 at South Surrey Recreation Centre – to give stakeholders an opportunity to discuss issue. For information or to submit comments, visit

www.translink.ca/surreyrapidtransitstudy
FAQs

http://www.translink.ca/~/media/Docu...udy%20FAQ.ashx

http://www.translink.ca/~/media/Docu...y%20Facts.ashx

Rapid Transit Alternatives Analysis Study RFP:

http://www.translink.ca/~/media/Docu...sis%20RFP.ashx

Related Initiatives:

Quote:
3.0 RAPID TRANSIT BACKGROUND

3.1 Rapid transit within Surrey has long been considered. It has been the subject of several studies and
has been acknowledged in plans since the early 1990s.

3.2 In 1993, the Metro Vancouver Transport 2021 Long-Range Plan identified the need for Intermediate
Capacity Transit System (ICTS – SkyTrain, LRT or separated busway) along KGH/104 and busways
along Fraser Hwy to connect municipal centres. The Medium-Range Plan projected only bus lanes by
2006. This was reconfirmed in the Livable Region Strategic Plan (LRSP) (1996), which also proposed
dedicated bus lanes on Fraser Hwy and Hwy 1.

3.3 BC Transit later identified the King George Highway/152nd corridor between Surrey City Centre and
White Rock, and the 104th Ave corridor between Surrey City Centre and Guildford as Rapid Bus
corridors. In 1998-1999, BC Transit and Surrey undertook studies of alignments and right-of-way
requirements for King George Highway / 104th Ave Rapid Bus, targeting 2006 implementation. Fraser
Highway between Surrey City Centre and Cloverdale/Langley was identified by the City of Surrey as
another candidate Rapid Bus corridor for future study.

3.4 TransLink’s Ten Year Outlook (2004) confirmed the commitment to the “King George Busway”, but
with expected delivery delayed until 2013.

3.5 The importance of rapid transit in Surrey was reconfirmed through the South of Fraser Area Transit
Plan (2007). Once again King George Highway/104th Ave were identified as priority corridors for bus
or rail rapid transit. Fraser Highway was also identified as a future rapid transit corridor within Surrey.
The plan included an assessment of the Feasibility of Operating Passenger Rail on the Interurban
Corridor (Phase 1- Technical Memorandum No. 1), recommending it be preserved as a corridor for
possible long term rapid transit consideration.
Also recognized in the plan was the importance of connections to other potential future rapid transit
corridors on Hwy 1 & 200th St.

3.6 In January 2006, the Province of British Columbia announced the Port Mann Bridge/Highway 1
Project as part of the Gateway Program, scheduled for 2013 completion. This widening of Highway
1and construction of a new 10 lane bridge is to include HOV lanes and priority access to be used by
express buses travelling between Langley, Surrey and Burnaby.

3.7 TransLink’s 2008 Transportation & Financial Plan identified the need for a Surrey Rapid Transit
Study to examine long term technology, alignment and phasing alternatives. This direction was
reaffirmed in TransLink’s 10-Year Transportation and Financial Plan (2009).

3.8 In January 2008, the Province of British Columbia announced a Provincial Transit Plan. This Plan
identified a significant program of rapid transit expansion to be completed by 2020. Within Surrey the
plan proposed a 6km SkyTrain extension to Fleetwood, and RapidBus corridors along King George
Highway to White Rock & Fraser Hwy to Langley.

3.9 Since Surrey Rapid Bus studies were conducted in 1998- 1999 the planning context has changed
significantly, necessitating a more current and rigorous examination of rapid transit alternatives in
Surrey. Those changes include:
(a) Major increases of bus service in Surrey coupled with a reorientation of bus network to
better serve internal South of Fraser travel due to the implementation of the South of
Fraser ATP;
(b) Ongoing growth in population and employment in Langley & Surrey, including significant
development in previously rural areas;
(c) New & planned transportation infrastructure that will have profound effect on travel
patterns in study area: Golden Ears Bridge (2009), Canada Line (2009), Gateway Program
(2013);
(d) Renewed interest in the suitability of the former BCER interurban rail corridor for
passenger rail;
(e) The City of Surrey is updating its Official Community Plan and Strategic Transportation
Plan, with a continued focus on Surrey City Centre;
(f) Renewed civic investment is occurring within Surrey City Centre, including the
development of Simon Fraser University Surrey, and the planned relocation of Surrey City
Hall;
(g) TransLink led Transit Facility Projects (including at Surrey Central, Newton, and
Semiahmoo) which will shape demand for transit around key nodes within the study area.

......

5.0 RELATED INITIATIVES

5.1 Rapid Transit Planning Studies
(a) TransLink’s 10-Year Plan (2009) and the Provincial Transit Plan outline a significant
program of rapid transit expansion. Expansion projects are being developed under a
compressed timeframe in order to meet the objectives and schedule outlined in the Plans.
As a result, several rapid transit studies and projects are being conducted concurrently.
These rapid transit initiatives will have bearing on the scope of this work, may require
coordination or are relevant as context for this Study. These are described below and are
also summarized in Figure 1. Further details may be found in the reference documents for
each of the studies listed.

5.2 Rapid Transit Strategic Network Review
(a) Over the next several years, a Regional Rapid Transit Plan (RRTP) is being developed in
order to achieve an integrated approach to expansion that supports a long-term vision of
the network. Significant further planning work and technical study are required in order to
develop a Master Plan. To that end, a Rapid Transit Strategic Network Review is
currently underway and will have bearing on this Study. The objective of the Review is to
undertake preliminary planning activities and foundation work to develop the RRTP. The
Review includes the following activities:
1. A network assessment, which will identify transportation needs and opportunities for
the current and future rapid transit network.
2. A work plan for studies and technical work required to develop a long-range
Regional Rapid Transit Plan (“sub-studies”).
3. Recommendations to resolve issues that require near-term resolution such as
Evergreen Line network integration, SkyTrain fleet size/configuration and operations
and maintenance centre (OMC) needs.

4. Base model development for the purposes of network-level rapid transit planning.
The objective is to update base model assumptions and ensure a consistent approach
to modelling and forecasting for all rapid transit planning initiatives.
5. Set up activities for the Surrey Rapid Transit Alternatives Analysis. The Review
includes base model development for corridor-level planning activities for the Surrey
project and a high level assessment of potential alignment and technology
combinations and selection of “reasonable corridor options” for the area. These
reasonable corridor options and the supporting technical analysis will be provided as
inputs for the more detailed evaluation of alignment and technology alternatives to be
developed through this RFP.

5.3 Expo Upgrade Strategy
(a) A study is underway to develop an Expo Line Upgrade Strategy to ensure future capacity
and access needs are met along this important line. The study will look at a range of
measures under consideration to increase capacity such as increasing fleet, optimizing the
fleet mix, increasing train/platform length, increasing station capacity, and addressing
system infrastructure and operating constraints.
Options will be evaluated, and a preferred
path to achieving Expo Line capacity requirements will be identified. The Expo Upgrade
Strategy will be followed by a more detailed study to establish the implementation and
phasing strategy for the required upgrades.

5.4 UBC Line Rapid Transit Study
(a) A study is currently underway to evaluate rapid transit alignments and technologies for a
rapid transit line from Commercial to UBC along the Broadway corridor. The study is
being undertaken in three phases:
1. In Phase 1, alignment and technology options are identified and screened for
technical feasibility in order to arrive at a shortlist of 3-4 options.
2. In Phase 2, shortlist options are further developed and refined and an evaluation is
undertaken in order to support a decision on a preferred option.
3. In Phase 3, further design development and costing is undertaken for the preferred
option. It will establish a budget, timeline and phasing for the project and provide
the basis for project definition, securing funding and procurement.
The current study addresses Phase 1 and Phase 2.

5.5 Transit Facility Projects
(a) A significant program of transit facility projects is underway across Metro Vancouver.
This planning work, which focuses primarily on bus and rail stations, is necessary to
accommodate increased transit service and to improve passenger environments at and
around transit facilities. Studies are underway for the conceptual / functional design of
new or upgraded passenger transportation facilities, as well as for station precinct and
transit oriented development (TOD) plans for existing transit stations and hubs. Studies
are underway or anticipated for the following transit facilities within the Study Area (see
7.0):
1. Surrey City Centre: Restructuring of transit exchange and transit services to reflect
City objectives for a downtown environment, as identified in the Surrey Central
Transit Village Plan.
2. Newton Town Centre: Concept Plan for the Newton Town Centre and the new,
relocated Newton Transit Exchange, in partnership with the City of Surrey.
3. Semiahmoo Mall: Concept plan for new on-street exchange with nearby off-street
layover in the Semiahmoo Town Centre.
4. Langley Centre: Develop a new bus exchange in Langley.
5. Guildford Mall: Concept plan for new exchange on Guildford Mall property to be
integrated with mall redevelopment.
6. 156th St & Hwy 1: Develop concept plans for BRT stations at 156th St.
7. Scott Rd Station: Conduct a complete accessibility audit of the station, bus exchange
and park-and-ride facility and develop an upgrade plan.
The scope of some of these projects has been provided in the Reference Documents (see
Appendix 4). Details on the other projects will be provided upon Contract award.

5.6 Highway 1 Corridor RapidBus
(a) Through the Provincial Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure’s Gateway Program,
the construction of a new Port Mann Bridge and widening of Hwy 1 by 2013 will include
infrastructure to support RapidBus express service between Lougheed Town Centre
station in Burnaby and 202nd St in Langley. This project includes the construction of
dedicated bus access ramps at Government St in Burnaby, and shared bus/HOV access
ramps at 156th St in Surrey and 202nd St in Langley. Planning and design work is currently
underway to develop conceptual / functional plans of the associated transit facilities and
supporting infrastructure such as park and rides. Planning is also underway to develop
opening day bus service and fleet plans. The scope of this project has been provided in the
Reference Documents (see Appendix 4), with further information currently under
development to be made available upon Contract award.

5.7 Strategic Review of Transit in the Fraser Valley
(a) The Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure, with the support of the Fraser Valley
Regional District (FVRD), BC Transit and TransLink, is developing a long-range transit
vision for the Fraser Valley that supports local community plans, the FVRD’s regional
growth strategy and the Provincial Transit Plan. This vision will create a broad outline of
transit and other transportation services in the Fraser Valley for the key benchmark years
of 2020 and 2030. The scope of this study includes all form of public transportation from
paratransit to full commuter rail. The scope of this project has been provided in the
Reference Documents (see Appendix 4).

5.8 Other Related Projects
(a) Regional Trip Diary and Screen Line: A regional trip diary and screen line has been
conducted in the Fall of 2008. The survey sampled travel behaviour for approximately 2%
of regional households. Results are expected to be made available to the Surrey Rapid
Transit Study by the Fall of 2009 and will be incorporated into analytical, forecasting and
modelling work for the remaining portions of the project as is feasible/necessary. The
scope of this project has been provided in the Reference Documents (see Appendix 4).

Last edited by officedweller; Mar 13, 2010 at 12:54 AM.
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  #372  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2010, 3:19 AM
Bureaucromancer Bureaucromancer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbertram View Post
One thought I've had for a while is why not make Surrey the 'downtown core' for all the other communities South, and East of Surrey?

Why not build an LRT-type of system using the existing ROWs to connect White Rock, Abbotsford, Guildford, Delta, Aldergrove and Langley with Surrey (and each other). By having a Surrey LRT transit hub at SkyTrain King George Station, you could continue traveling to other destinations north of the Fraser (New West, Burnaby, Vancouver, Richmond) by changing from LRT to Skytrain.

Building a lot of ground-level LRT using existing ROWs would likely be cheaper than building a small section of elevated SkyTrain, and can preserve the rail transit ROWs for future use if population growth and ridership growth justifies upgrading from LRT to SkyTrain at a later date.
I also agree mostly - I do think that the immediate proposal for Skytrain in Surrey is worthwhile - King George to Guildford then back down to Fraser Highway and on to 160th or so. This area is a long way from any rail corridor and sets up a very nice anchor for bus service. Beyond that I agree that light rail in the existing corridors makes more sense then further Skytrain south of the Fraser. The current plan, to take it to Langley and south down 152, presumably with a south of Fraser shuttle service layered on top to keep frequency up would certainly be nice once built but seems VERY expensive for the ridership, and suspect we could get surface rail all the way to Chiliwack for less money.

My serious suggestion would be to build that Expo extension I outlined above, alongside a diesel light rail demonstrator service with peak hour commuter schedules running from Scott Rd. Skytrain to Langley (ending at Trinity Western) and White Rock. Once thats established we could look at all day serice, electrification and extensions. Going up to Chiliwack and other things sound great, but I think that if this is going to happen politically it's going to have to be obviously similar in scope to Skytrain and dramatically cheaper (at least in the first phase).

Last edited by Bureaucromancer; Mar 13, 2010 at 6:54 AM.
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  #373  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2010, 4:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Bureaucromancer View Post
I also agree mostly - I do think that the immediate proposal for Skytrain in Surrey is worthwhile - King George to Guildwood then back down to Lougheed Highway and on to 160th or so. This area is a long way from any rail corridor and sets up a very nice anchor for bus service. Beyond that I agree that light rail in the existing corridors makes more sense then further Skytrain south of the Fraser. The current plan, to take it to Langley and south down 152, presumably with a south of Fraser shuttle service layered on top to keep frequency up would certainly be nice once built but seems VERY expensive for the ridership, and suspect we could get surface rail all the way to Chiliwack for less money.

My serious suggestion would be to build that Expo extension I outlined above, alongside a diesel light rail demonstrator service with peak hour commuter schedules running from Scott Rd. Skytrain to Langley (ending at Trinity Western) and White Rock. Once thats established we could look at all day serice, electrification and extensions. Going up to Chiliwack and other things sound great, but I think that if this is going to happen politically it's going to have to be obviously similar in scope to Skytrain and dramatically cheaper (at least in the first phase).
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  #374  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2010, 5:18 AM
Bureaucromancer Bureaucromancer is offline
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Originally Posted by cornholio View Post
Explain?

Seriously, the one big flaw I see in LRT for the Valley is that the BCE corridor is a long way south of the Fraser Highway (oops, caught a typo in the original there - why can't you people number your highways and name the roads like civilized provinces ) and most of Surrey, making it problematic for bus connections to a lot of people (unless the intent is to funnel all the traffic from the north into Hwy 1 BRT).
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  #375  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2010, 5:46 AM
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fraser hwy has a number its 1A
its no longer a hwy these days though
fraser hwy suits it since it goes from Surrey to Abbotsford which most of the fraser valley
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  #376  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2010, 5:59 AM
officedweller officedweller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bureaucromancer View Post
Explain?
My guess is the reference to "Guildwood" [Guildford] and "Lougheed" [Fraser] Highway.
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  #377  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2010, 6:53 AM
Bureaucromancer Bureaucromancer is offline
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Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
My guess is the reference to "Guildwood" [Guildford] and "Lougheed" [Fraser] Highway.
Arrghh, didn't catch the Guildwood thing. This is what I get for writing after school (after a day of writing about Toronto).
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  #378  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2010, 10:23 AM
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why anything would end at Trinity is my guess.. That school is secluded from every direction by the ALR, and HWY1.
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  #379  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2010, 4:05 PM
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It's a decent location for a commuter line, on the existing rail corridor, located for good connections to buses farther up the valley and has room for park and ride. Wouldn't make much sense for all day service, let alone building something new, but for a few trains a day on existing track it's short extension past wherever a Langley station goes.
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  #380  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2010, 9:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Vancouver_Highrise View Post
why anything would end at Trinity is my guess.. That school is secluded from every direction by the ALR, and HWY1.
The tracks go there already. It could connect with the Rapid Bus
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