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  #1  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2015, 11:04 PM
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Does 'Canada' end at Lake of the Woods?

I say this as someone who traditionally thinks Alberta has more in common with Ontario than Idaho or even Montana. Last week's federal election results really started me on a train of thought, questioning if this part of the literal Canadian nation-state that I live in is apart of a figurative Canada that fits the narrative of what Canada is.

If you look at Western Canada's election results, a large chunk of people, especially in Saskatchewan and Alberta, voted overwhelmingly for the CPC, despite their track record spanning 9 years. They also took up a decent number of seats in BC and Manitoba, though obviously less so.

But, if you hear the rhetoric being pumped out by many centrist or left-leaning Canadians following Trudeau's win, the impression is that the Harper years were an anomaly and that Canada will go back to itself and introduce policies that fit better with supposedly core Canadian ideals. Yet, many Western Canadians, including a majority in two of the provinces, voted against the Trudeau (or Mulcair) platform.

That being said, many did vote for the Liberals out west, including most of Winnipeg, and some urban ridings in Edmonton, Calgary, Regina, etc, not to mention the Lower Mainland. Which is why the election results were just the thing to kickstart this train of thought.

I also started looking into the political history of the country, finding that nearly all Prime Ministers have hailed from Ontario or Quebec, which does lend support for the rhetoric of 'the East' calling the shots.

Looking further, the Liberal party has been called Canada's "natural governing party", a party which is very Eastern-focused and whose values don't always align with Western Canadian ones. Hell, Edmonton was specifically chosen as the capital for Alberta over Calgary specifically because we were more Liberal-leaning.

Digging a bit further, growing up, we were told that (Anglophone) Canadians were the Loyalists, the ones who were pro-British, juxtaposing the Americans. This is a tale that is built up as if to be something to have defined us as a nation.

But really, what is now Western Canada was far more indifferent to what the Americans were doing. The West had a good relationship with the US and probably would have been fine ending up as part of their country. The main reason why Western Canada isn't apart of the Western US (or its own country) is because of early Canadian expansionism and wanting to secure this territory for its natural resources and keep it out of American hands. We were (some would argue that we still are) mere resource colonies for Ontario and Quebec to sink their teeth into, or so it would seem.

Another thing is that a lot of 'distinctly' Canadian things seem to have less relevance out here. The French-English divide, which many would argue is very central to Canada's existence as a country, isn't really a thing out here. A lot of culinary items specifically billed as Canadian seem to have stronger backings or origins in Eastern Canada, especially Quebec. Hell, maple trees aren't even native to Western Canada and yet they are on our flag!

Yes, one could argue that regional differences can and often do exist in nation-states, and that doesn't take away from still being a unified entity. But, the impression it feels like is that Western Canadian-derived things aren't as wholeheartedly embraced as distinctly Canadian things in the same way Eastern Canadian-derived things are.

It is hard for large countries to remain intact and united, especially on the cultural front, especially when population is so concentrated in one corner, so I guess sentiments of Western alienation and the like were inevitable. The only larger country that seems to this well is the United States, for obvious reasons.

Now, I'm not saying that Western Canada doesn't belong in Canada, or that it necessarily makes sense to have it as part of the United States. Western Canada seems like something in-between Eastern Canada and the United States, in my opinion.

Food for thought.
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  #2  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2015, 11:08 PM
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How are the differences between Ontario and Alberta any different than the differences between, say Massachusetts and Idaho?
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  #3  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2015, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by The Chemist View Post
How are the differences between Ontario and Alberta any different than the differences between, say Massachusetts and Idaho?
There are regional differences in the US, arguably even greater than those found in Anglo-Canada, but there is still a very strong and pervasive overarching national culture that binds the states together. That's probably just because of how strong and pervasive American culture is globally and its not something that has really worked in other large countries.
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Old Posted Oct 26, 2015, 11:22 PM
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Honestly, I think the regional differences between provinces - at least from Quebec to BC - are at an all-time low. If you looked at the dynamics in the west, they were largely the same as in Ontario and even Quebec. Atlantic Canada was really the exception this time.
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  #5  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2015, 11:28 PM
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Upper Canada does.

Seriously, Trudeau has a chance to from a government with strong representation from every province. Hopefully he won't throw it away.
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  #6  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2015, 11:31 PM
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I think the election last week added further evidence to the rural-urban divide rather than the differences between provinces. I think cities face common issues regardless of which province they are in. I'm sure the same could likely be said of rural areas.
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  #7  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2015, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by CCF View Post
I think the election last week added further evidence to the rural-urban divide rather than the differences between provinces. I think cities face common issues regardless of which province they are in. I'm sure the same could likely be said of rural areas.
In some ways, yes, but look at Alberta. More than half of Albertans live in Calgary and Edmonton, and yet nowhere near half the seats in the province went NDP/Liberal.
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  #8  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2015, 11:36 PM
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No, Canada does not end at Lake of the Woods. It's comprised of 10 provinces and three territories. Go study a map of the entire country if this confuses you.
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  #9  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2015, 11:37 PM
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No, Canada does not end at Lake of the Woods. It's comprised of 10 provinces and three territories. Go study a map if this confuses you.
Perhaps you should read the OP before being so literal.
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Old Posted Oct 26, 2015, 11:39 PM
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Perhaps you should read the OP before being so literal.
I'm aware of what the OP is referring to. The title of the thread could have been stated in a different manner; it just comes off as more western bitterness towards the Trudeau government. We already have a few of those threads in existance.
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  #11  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2015, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Pinus View Post
I'm aware of what the OP is referring to. The title of the thread could have been stated in a different manner; it just comes off as more western bitterness towards the Trudeau government. We already have a few of those threads in existance.
For the record, I never did state where I stand on the Trudeau government. My post was merely about the contrasting overarching sentiments in the different regions, not my specific views on these sentiments.
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  #12  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2015, 11:47 PM
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Nah, BC is not part of Western/Prairie Canada. It's part of the Pacific Northwest.

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  #13  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2015, 11:47 PM
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No, Canada does not end at Lake of the Woods. It's comprised of 10 provinces and three territories. Go study a map of the entire country if this confuses you.
Well perhaps Alberta is a bit of anomaly. I am new to Alberta, have lived in both Saskatchewan and Ontario previously, for significant periods of time.

This election to me was of great interest because Saskatchewan over the past decade had continuously gone Conservative in much of it's ridings. I had argued for some time that Saskatchewan needed urban only ridings to better reflect constituents.

This election proved to me that Saskatchewan is no differently than a lot of the other provinces. Three of the four Urban ridings (in Regina and Saskatoon) voted in the NDP (2) and Liberal (1). This obviously deviates from what the rural parts of the province voted for.

Again, having spent significant time in cities across Canada (but being from Western Canada) I haven't felt 'different' in any place I've been. Certainly there are regional differences, but not to the extent that I've thought 'where am I!'
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Old Posted Oct 27, 2015, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by CCF View Post
Well perhaps Alberta is a bit of anomaly. I am new to Alberta, have lived in both Saskatchewan and Ontario previously, for significant periods of time.

This election to me was of great interest because Saskatchewan over the past decade had continuously gone Conservative in much of it's ridings. I had argued for some time that Saskatchewan needed urban only ridings to better reflect constituents.

This election proved to me that Saskatchewan is no differently than a lot of the other provinces. Three of the four Urban ridings (in Regina and Saskatoon) voted in the NDP (2) and Liberal (1). This obviously deviates from what the rural parts of the province voted for.

Again, having spent significant time in cities across Canada (but being from Western Canada) I haven't felt 'different' in any place I've been. Certainly there are regional differences, but not to the extent that I've thought 'where am I!'
The seats in urban Saskatchewan that remained Conservative did so primarily due to Liberal-NDP vote splits. Same was true with a bunch of seats in Edmonton and even a couple in Calgary.
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Old Posted Oct 27, 2015, 12:16 AM
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I am getting tired of BC being lumped in with Alberta and Saskatchewan.

Sorry, but BC (especially this election) is far more akin to Ontario than it is its fellow western provinces.

Seat count:

BC:

Liberal: 17
NDP: 14
Conservative: 10
Green: 1 (Canadas only Green seat)

The conservatives were in 3rd place in BC for seats, obtaining only 10 out of 42, less than 25%

Alberta:

Conservative: 29
Liberal: 4
NDP: 1

Hmmmmmm.... a little different me thinks.

In Ontario the conservatives won 33 seats out of 121, also roughly 25% (similar to BC).

So please stop with the all too simple west / east split. And sorry Alberta and Saskatchewan, but you are on your own for Conservative love this time. Even Manitoba is considerably more varied in its political landscape.

PS, vote splitting also existed in BC, Ontario, and Manitoba between the left parties, yet they still won more seats than the Conservatives. In fact for a few Vancouver Island ridings the left was a nearly equal 3 way split between the Liberals, NDP, and Green (putting the Conservatives in 4th place).
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Old Posted Oct 27, 2015, 12:22 AM
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I think you guys are focusing too heavily on the election results prong of my post...
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  #17  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2015, 12:30 AM
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Well I can tell you that emotionally most people in BC really dont feel that we are more akin to Alberta than we are to Ontario, even for many conservative people I know.

Most identify themselves as British Columbian or as Canadian, not as Western Canadian with the prairies.

Even in the interior of BC most people feel this way, it is BC or Canada, no step in the middle.

Maybe in the northeast corner they feel more to the idea you are going for, but population wise that is small remote corner of the province.
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Old Posted Oct 27, 2015, 12:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post

So please stop with the all too simple west / east split. And sorry Alberta and Saskatchewan, but you are on your own for Conservative love this time. Even Manitoba is considerably more varied in its political landscape.

PS, vote splitting also existed in BC, Ontario, and Manitoba between the left parties, yet they still won more seats than the Conservatives. In fact for a few Vancouver Island ridings the left was a nearly equal 3 way split between the Liberals, NDP, and Green (putting the Conservatives in 4th place).
Manitoba is the poster boy for the urban rural divide (as in arable land rural). All of the ridings outside of Winnipeg's perimeter highway (save for Churchill which is predominately populated by first nations) went conservative. This is mirrored in the provincial ridings as well where NDP dominate the cities (well Winnipeg and Brandon) while the arable rural area is dominated by the conservatives.
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Old Posted Oct 27, 2015, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by CCF View Post
I think the election last week added further evidence to the rural-urban divide rather than the differences between provinces. I think cities face common issues regardless of which province they are in. I'm sure the same could likely be said of rural areas.
Agreed.

Inner-city Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Saskatoon, and Regina all went progressive. Much of their city proper's went progressive. Suburbs were strong blue. Rural areas went blue. The difference is mainly urban-rural.

Hell, of the four urban-only ridings in Saskatchewan two went NDP and one Liberal. And in the one riding they lost the combined NDP+Liberal vote was 56%. Every urban Winnipeg went progressive.

Rural areas are the ones that are hardcore blue. We just have small urban populations and large rural populations. I suspect the prairies move further left politically as the big centres grow and densify.
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Old Posted Oct 27, 2015, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post
Well I can tell you that emotionally most people in BC really dont feel that we are more akin to Alberta than we are to Ontario, even for many conservative people I know.

Most identify themselves as British Columbian or as Canadian, not as Western Canadian with the prairies.

Even in the interior of BC most people feel this way, it is BC or Canada, no step in the middle.

Maybe in the northeast corner they feel more to the idea you are going for, but population wise that is small remote corner of the province.
This is one of those reflexive, knee-jerk things that amuses the hell out of me.

"Alberta!? No, FUCK Alberta. We hate those oilmongering, Harper-loving bastards! How dare you lump us in with THEM!" *spit* -- Coastal BCers
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