Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by Acajack

OK. As you may know they're building a similarly-sized CHL rink near my place, but it also includes three indoor community ice pads (so a total of four arenas) and a fairly large parking garage. The total project cost is more than 100 million dollars. This will be city-owned but it's being done through a build-operate agreement with a local not-for-profit outfit that specializes in sports facilities. Former NHLer Daniel Brière, who grew up just around the corner from me, is one of the organization's financial backers.

This is similar in that the WHL arena is only one part of a bigger complex. It’s in the RM of MacDonald, although well within the Perimeter Highway, so taxes might be low. It’s also adjacent to the wealthiest sections of the city so it’s going to be a big draw with people who have kids in hockey, whether to use the facilities themselves or to watch a non-NHL game that is within 15 minutes of home and has easy parking.

[blueandgoldguy]

Not too long ago, I thought the Scotiabank Centre in Halifax would be replaced given its age. However, with all the recent renovations completed in recent years - new ice pad, new scoreboard, concessions, etc. - it appears they have extended the life span of the facility by 20 - 25 years. By then the facility will be over 60 years old before a replacement is seriously considered.

Saskatoon is likely to stick with their current arena, with some modest renovations happening in the coming years. About 3 or 4 years ago, I stated that there would be no new arena in Saskatoon for 20-25 years (16-21 years presently). I stand by that comment. The arena, as it is, meets the needs of city and province.

Hamilton is considering a proposal for a new 10,000 seat arena as the current is far too large for its present use.. The old arena would then be demolished and replaced with a new convention centre.

[Dalreg]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

Not too long ago, I thought the Scotiabank Centre in Halifax would be replaced given its age. However, with all the recent renovations completed in recent years - new ice pad, new scoreboard, concessions, etc. - it appears they have extended the life span of the facility by 20 - 25 years. By then the facility will be over 60 years old before a replacement is seriously considered.

Saskatoon is likely to stick with their current arena, with some modest renovations happening in the coming years. About 3 or 4 years ago, I stated that there would be no new arena in Saskatoon for 20-25 years (16-21 years presently). I stand by that comment. The arena, as it is, meets the needs of city and province.

Hamilton is considering a proposal for a new 10,000 seat arena as the current is far too large for its present use.. The old arena would then be demolished and replaced with a new convention centre.

I would lay a bet on Saskatoon building a new arena sooner than that. Plenty of rumblings from the community on a downtown arena in the nearer future. I would lay a bet on, on something happening before the end of this decade.

[esquire]

I guess if Saskatoon wants to build a new rink then that's their prerogative, but it seems weird to me to replace a perfectly functional NHL-sized building when there is no current or prospective tenant agitating for one. Most cities only take this kind of thing on when they have no choice if they want to keep or attract teams. The Blades and Rush could probably play at SaskTel for the next 100 years, it would suit them just fine. So why take on the substantial cost of building a new rink now?

If Saskatoon wants to use it to spur downtown development, then why not take half the money it would take to build a new arena and just put it directly into downtown, i.e. cut out the middleman?

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

I guess if Saskatoon wants to build a new rink then that's their prerogative, but it seems weird to me to replace a perfectly functional NHL-sized building when there is no current or prospective tenant agitating for one. The Blades and Rush could probably play at SaskTel for the next 100 years, it will suit them just fine. So why take on the substantial cost of building a new rink now?

If Saskatoon wants to use it to spur downtown development, then why not take half the money it would take to build a new arena and just put it directly into downtown, i.e. cut out the middleman?

When they get the quotes for what a new rink will cost them, I suspect they'll find that SaskTel centre is quite adequate.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by wave46

When they get the quotes for what a new rink will cost them, I suspect they'll find that SaskTel centre is quite adequate.

I think you might be right. Replacing SaskTel with something of a similar scale, sort of the base NHL arena model with 15,000ish seats and a modern number of skyboxes, suites and the like would probably cost around $250 million. If you want the top-line Rogers Place or Videotron type NHL arena, then it's going to be closer to $500 million. But what would be the point of splurging that way? Unlike with Quebec City, Saskatoon does not have a realistic shot of getting a NHL team in the short to medium term. Thy could spend a billion dollars on the most lavish arena known to man and the NHL still won't be coming to town. SaskTel is more than enough for the WHL and NLL. And as SaskScraper likes to remind us, Saskatoon already gets plenty of concerts including a regular rotation of Thomas Rhett shows. So what is the real benefit of doling out all that cash for a new barn? Is it just to make downtown hoteliers and restaurateurs happy with some extra business?

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

I think you might be right. Replacing SaskTel with something of a similar scale, sort of the base NHL arena model with 15,000ish seats and a modern number of skyboxes, suites and the like would probably cost around $250 million. If you want the top-line Rogers Place or Videotron type NHL arena, then it's going to be closer to $500 million. But what would be the point of splurging that way? Unlike with Quebec City, Saskatoon does not have a realistic shot of getting a NHL team in the short to medium term. Thy could spend a billion dollars on the most lavish arena known to man and the NHL still won't be coming to town. SaskTel is more than enough for the WHL and NLL. And as SaskScraper likes to remind us, Saskatoon already gets plenty of concerts including a regular rotation of Thomas Rhett shows. So what is the real benefit of doling out all that cash for a new barn? Is it just to make downtown hoteliers and restaurateurs happy with some extra business?

I expect any new downtown arena in Saskatoon would become like Copps Coliseum in Hamilton - far too large for what the market really needs.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by wave46

I expect any new downtown arena in Saskatoon would become like Copps Coliseum in Hamilton - far too large for what the market really needs.

Yeah, both choices for Saskatoon seem sub par... pay a reasonable amount for a 'right sized' arena that would be a downgrade from the current building, or break the bank for a replacement NHL-sized arena that would cost a fortune but not really be necessary.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

Yeah, both choices for Saskatoon seem sub par... pay a reasonable amount for a 'right sized' arena that would be a downgrade from the current building, or break the bank for a replacement NHL-sized arena that would cost a fortune but not really be necessary.

I'm with you - better to kick the can down the road a bit and see what happens in the future.

It's like a single guy buying a ginormous 5-bedroom house in anticipation of the huge family he's going to have. Might want to take it a bit slower.

[king10]

Originally Posted by esquire

Yeah, both choices for Saskatoon seem sub par... pay a reasonable amount for a 'right sized' arena that would be a downgrade from the current building, or break the bank for a replacement NHL-sized arena that would cost a fortune but not really be necessary.

Thats the same position Hamilton is in, except First Ontario Centre is probably in worse shape. It needs over $50M in repairs over the next 5 years. Ice lines are leaking and could fail within that time frame, meaning no ice in the middle of an OHL season.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by king10

Thats the same position Hamilton is in, except First Ontario Centre is probably in worse shape. It needs over $50M in repairs over the next 5 years. Ice lines are leaking and could fail within that time frame, meaning no ice in the middle of an OHL season.

Yeah, I was under the impression that SaskTel has been better maintained than Copps. Has Copps really been upgraded or changed at all since it was built? I've never been inside but on TV it looks pretty well the way I remember it during the 1987 Canada Cup. By contrast, SaskTel has received fairly significant expansions and upgrades for the couple of WJHCs that they've hosted. It's still a pretty good looking barn.



If anything, I would expect Regina would have a greater need for a new arena than Saskatoon.

[thurmas]

looks like old northlands coliseum in the 80's

[esquire]

Originally Posted by thurmas

looks like old northlands coliseum in the 80's

It looks and feels strikingly like that, although like Edmonton did somewhere in the 90s, they filled in the open concourse with luxury boxes too.

Even though it's starting to get a bit older, it still feels very much like a NHL building, maybe just not to fully modern spec (but then neither did MTS Centre before the Jets moved in and TNSE upgraded it).

[Echoes]

Originally Posted by esquire

I guess if Saskatoon wants to build a new rink then that's their prerogative, but it seems weird to me to replace a perfectly functional NHL-sized building when there is no current or prospective tenant agitating for one. Most cities only take this kind of thing on when they have no choice if they want to keep or attract teams. The Blades and Rush could probably play at SaskTel for the next 100 years, it would suit them just fine. So why take on the substantial cost of building a new rink now?

If Saskatoon wants to use it to spur downtown development, then why not take half the money it would take to build a new arena and just put it directly into downtown, i.e. cut out the middleman?

A good point, but direct investment in the downtown is not a flashy, big ticket project that our elected officials can get people excited about.

As a Saskatoon resident I'm surprised by the general consensus, at least among our City Council and business community, that we need to start working towards an eventual new downtown arena right now.

Council has directed City Hall to come back to them with a decision report by year end on a specific location for the arena. This of course is not the same as making a decision to fund its construction, but confirming the site is a pretty big (albeit preliminary) decision to be making. I think there's a very real chance of a new arena opening downtown in the next 10-12 years. The momentum is building, but it's possible that a civic election next fall could put the brakes on the whole thing.

[SteelTown]

Originally Posted by esquire

Yeah, I was under the impression that SaskTel has been better maintained than Copps. Has Copps really been upgraded or changed at all since it was built? I've never been inside but on TV it looks pretty well the way I remember it during the 1987 Canada Cup. By contrast, SaskTel has received fairly significant expansions and upgrades for the couple of WJHCs that they've hosted. It's still a pretty good looking barn.

Very slowly, the escalators (meaning every single one) were almost down for two or three years before it was finally repaired. They've replaced the chairs over a two or three year period, got rid of the red, orange and brown chairs with blue chairs. Replaced the scoreboard and finally finished installing the wrap-around LED screens between the upper and lower bowl just recently.

[EpicPonyTime]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

Very slowly, the escalators (meaning every single one) were almost down for two or three years before it was finally repaired. They've replaced the chairs over a two or three year period, got rid of the red, orange and brown chairs with blue chairs. Replaced the scoreboard and finally finished installing the wrap-around LED screens between the upper and lower bowl just recently.

Hamilton's got Saskatoon beat in terms of chairs at least. We're still rocking the plastic seats the building opened up with, save a handful of sections in the lower bowl.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by Dalreg

I would lay a bet on Saskatoon building a new arena sooner than that. Plenty of rumblings from the community on a downtown arena in the nearer future. I would lay a bet on, on something happening before the end of this decade.

A few months ago, there was a discussion of which path Saskatoon would follow with regards to their arena - either a new arena downtown with a new convention centre attached or a refurbishment of the current one. My feeling is they will renovate the current one as it is the more affordable option. Of course, if the construction of a new downtown arena can coincide with surrounding private developments (office and residential) it's possible the municipal government can sell the idea of a publicly funded facility.

[blueandgoldguy]

https://thestarphoenix.com/news/loca...-option-report

A new arena and expanded convention centre would cost an estimated $330 to $375 million, depending on the location, and would not include land, infrastructure or relocation costs, according to the study. The cost to renovate SaskTel Centre at its current site is estimated to be $101 million, though the study notes that “problems associated with its poor location on the periphery of Saskatoon” would continue. Theatre renovation costs at TCU Place would be an estimated $18.5 million.

The renovation of SaskTel Centre would add around 50,000 square feet of new space but would also “double-down on an unfortunate decision to locate the facility on the periphery of Saskatoon’s dynamic, urban core,” according to the report.

According to the study, despite major renovations in 2006, TCU Place “falls behind current industry standards for flexible/adaptable spaces, acoustics, exhibit spaces, kitchen service, and typical convention requirements.”

Here are the results of the study from last year. As stated above a new arena/convention centre would cost between $330 - $375 million. If this proposal included a 15,000 arena I would bet the cost would be significantly higher.

https://thestarphoenix.com/news/loca...-for-new-arena

He is promoting an even grander plan this time, a public-private partnership (P3) project that would include four residential towers with an arena/convention centre in between.

The success of the 126-unit condominium tower being built on Parcel Y at River landing has shown the demand for riverfront residential condos, Marvin said.

He has obtained a letter of intent from Victor Lam, the CEO of an entity known as Saska Land Development Holdings Corp., that includes a strategy to help pay for the arena/convention centre.

The letter suggests up to 20 per cent of the profits from the residential towers would go toward the construction of the arena/convention centre, which could cover up to one-third of the cost.

Angling towards P3 project to partially fund the arena...residential towers to partially fund it.

[Echoes]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

A few months ago, there was a discussion of which path Saskatoon would follow with regards to their arena - either a new arena downtown with a new convention centre attached or a refurbishment of the current one. My feeling is they will renovate the current one as it is the more affordable option. Of course, if the construction of a new downtown arena can coincide with surrounding private developments (office and residential) it's possible the municipal government can sell the idea of a publicly funded facility.

In the current discourse here in Saskatoon the renovate option is getting zero traction. It's barely been mentioned since the market analysis commissioned by the SaskTel Centre board was released last year that compared the costs of "renovate" vs. "build new" scenarios.

All the talk is about building new downtown and, yes, attaching it to a larger idea of an entertainment district that includes private development. The decision path that the current City Council is setting up is to this end.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by Echoes

In the current discourse here in Saskatoon the renovate option is getting zero traction. It's barely been mentioned since the market analysis commissioned by the SaskTel Centre board was released last year that compared the costs of "renovate" vs. "build new" scenarios.

All the talk is about building new downtown and, yes, attaching it to a larger idea of an entertainment district that includes private development. The decision path that the current City Council is setting up is to this end.

Yeah, I get that as I posted those articles regarding the council position just above your post. We will see if this actually comes to fruition. Will there be enough demand for housing in downtown to construct those residences which will play a key role in this P3 project. Saskatoon is growing at an impressive rate so I don't doubt there are a number of people interested in downtown living. However, will the percentage of private financing for this project be palatable to the public? Will the province be willing to finance a significant portion of this proposal? And how much have they underestimated the costs of the arena/convention centre? I have a feeling $370 million will not get it done.