HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #61  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2014, 3:12 AM
niwell's Avatar
niwell niwell is offline
sick transit, gloria
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Roncesvalles, Toronto
Posts: 11,060
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Personally, I have felt since my late teens that THE place for me was Montreal. If I had made my life there I'd most certainly be the one of the most passionate "Montréaliste" there is. In Canada anyway, it's the one city I can see myself being in love in the way that I've observed city dwellers around the world who feel their city in their bones. Even today I find that I often think and feel like a Montrealer, even if I don't even live there.
I feel that way about Toronto, but am also acutely aware of the city's shortcomings. Despite not being born here I knew I wanted to move at some point as I spent a significant amount of time here each year (family always lived here). I know there are better places in the world, but I'm happy and I know the city very well at this point. It's the first place I've lived that has really felt like home. That makes a big difference. I could probably make more money if I moved back to Calgary.

So yeah, it's a good feeling to truly care about a place. Even though it's giving me severe anxiety around election time...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #62  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2014, 8:45 AM
red-paladin red-paladin is offline
Vancouver Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Burnaby
Posts: 3,626
I believe the answer to this thread's question is:
I'll weigh in when the crash is over.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #63  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2014, 11:50 AM
kool maudit's Avatar
kool maudit kool maudit is offline
video et taceo
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 13,883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I'd say only a minority of us actually live in the place or the type of place that is our ideal. In most cases it requires too many compromises in other aspects of our lives, and so we compromise on that as opposed to something else.

Personally, I have felt since my late teens that THE place for me was Montreal. If I had made my life there I'd most certainly be the one of the most passionate "Montréaliste" there is. In Canada anyway, it's the one city I can see myself being in love in the way that I've observed city dwellers around the world who feel their city in their bones. Even today I find that I often think and feel like a Montrealer, even if I don't even live there.

I guess I gotta convince my kids to go to university there in order to justify buying a condo and my wife and I going every weekend or so.


i don't know you aside from our exchanges on the forum, but i feel like you're already a sort of montrealer somehow. i would place your neighborhood as eastern plateau, somewhere around st-hubert and marie-anne, maybe mentana.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #64  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2014, 11:55 AM
mousquet's Avatar
mousquet mousquet is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Greater Paris, France
Posts: 4,581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stryker View Post


Just your average city in france.
Your average rural village, I'd rather say. Myself, I don't know what it feels like to live such a place, but I believe a lot of folks in the country remain viscerally bound to this lifestyle and rather scorn larger cities. They just like living some rural environment in their ancient villages, which I find understandable even though I certainly couldn't share their way of life for long. In fact, many of these villages have subsisted not only on farming but also on some local industries whose too many have been struggling when they haven't merely disappeared yet, so today life is somewhat rougher in rural France. Drug dealing and crime have increased throughout rural areas across the country...
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
^ Have you been paying attention to the immigration stats? Immigrant inflows from France into Canada are at a record high.
Uh yeah, Quebec easily being the favorite destination, eh? The French political establishment is getting more and more worried about this phenomenon of a skilled workforce leaving the country, to the point that what they call "le modèle social français" (literally the French social template, pattern, model or whatever synonym) is now more and more questioned. For now, immobilism in France is promoting expatriation to some extent, which is a rather new trend in France's habits. They say it's turning into an issue. Losing skilled people is nothing good for any country indeed, though having a growing diaspora abroad is not uninteresting at all either. Also, I see no problem in a French expatriation to reinforce Quebec's population, I think it's pretty good for France's interests.

However, the French population is totally unable to face any kind of serious impoverishment. People over here are generally too proud and could never stand the feeling of being a second-rate nation, so I expect a few things to change in our system in the coming years. We're gonna have to turn more business friendly to face the intensified global competition. That's just life.

Meanwhile, Canada is an easier place to live, no doubt about it. For now, eh. Cause when France wakes up, it sometimes hurts.
Quote:
The standard joke is this:
Yup. This.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #65  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2014, 12:09 PM
SignalHillHiker's Avatar
SignalHillHiker SignalHillHiker is offline
I ♣ Baby Seals
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Sin Jaaawnz, Newf'nland
Posts: 34,724
Quote:
Originally Posted by kool maudit View Post
i just got back from running some errands in the center of my adopted northern european capital. it was a nice day, so we walked through the old citadel and through the gardens surrounding the castle. the palace guards at amalienborg were posing for photos with chinese tourists.

because i didn't really grow up with this sort of thing, it kind of charmed me. it probably always will ("let's cut through the palace..."), but these things are so subjective. if i were born here, the above would hold little to no value. things like art deco skyscrapers might be far more appealing, or — as per acajack's example — affordable swimming pools.

you can't really say "better" with canada and europe. i mean, i like playing tennis and don't really like playing squash, but that doesn't mean tennis is better, or that squash should be more like tennis. they're just two different phenomena between which i made a personal choice.

there are some things about where i live that i like, and that are quite tangible. for one, this is a small city of 1.5 million people that has a 107-station rail system. i use it to go everywhere. it's a great thing, and ottawa could have such a system too if they really wanted.

but i am not living in europe for the trains. you don't switch countries over railway setups. the reasons why this continent resonates with me are more internal and subjective; they are kind of the counterpart to the canadian "i like the future and helping to build my country"-type thoughts expressed upthread.

if you are fascinated by history and enjoy the sort of human habits that are made finer by long repetition — rituals, essentially — europe's a good place. if you like the vast, undefined nature of the frontier, you'd be happier in canada. if, like most people, you get kind of a thrill from both things but don't really have a huge temperamental leaning, you'd likely be happy in either an established canadian city like montreal or toronto or a progressive european city like copenhagen or amsterdam.

the stuff we talk about on the forum is really pretty important to me. a street and neighborhood of substantial pre-war buildings isn't an ideal or a perk, it's a prerequisite, and i wouldn't be really happy in a place where that wasn't both available and the norm. i don't like cities where urban living is a niche for yuppies or a market segment (picture a rehabbed factory called something like "the oatmeal lofts," perched above "ginsberg café" in an otherwise parking-lot filled neighborhood)... i like cities where it just goes without saying, where it's what's always been done and is effortless.

in a lot of canada, neighborhoods like this



are something of a boutique product, but in much of europe they're just life. i like that. but i will always have less living space, a lamer car, and fewer possessions here than i would in north america. nothing drastic or anything, but a noticeable step down. you sacrifice a bit of private for a bit of public and that's just that.
I completely agree, just with lower standards.

It takes so little for a neighbourhood to feel like a self-storage unit to me. I need the homes to be attached, I need there to be absolutely no front lawn. Even a few feet of grass between the sidewalk and the houses takes something away for me.

jeddy1989 used to be a tenant of mine, but now lives in another part of the city that's more suburban. He popped round on Friday because he had an hour to spare between appointments, parked his car outside my door, and we decided to walk down the block for some tea at Formosa.

We're walking down my little block and it's full of life. There are old women leaning out their bathroom windows on the second floor, smoking, chatting with passers-by. There are high school students heading back to school from the little cluster of restaurants at the end of our block. There's a woman sitting and reading on her front step. There's a Muslim man and his wife standing by their car screaming for their kids in the house to hurry up and get out.

And, near the end of the block, we hear someone shouting our names. It's Shannon, from Portland, Oregon, leaning out her house, asking where we're going. She can't join, she's already running an hour behind schedule, but we should stop by for drinks shortly before she gets off work at an expensive restaurant with an affordable bar in an alley off Duckworth Street.

We stand in the middle of the street to chat with her for five minutes. Every pedestrian walks on the street, not the sidewalk. Cars weave through.

As we're ready to move on, jeddy1989 says, "That's what I miss. I don't miss the run-down rowhouses, but I miss that community."

And that's what I need. I've never been able to achieve that in any other city. I'm sure it exists, but I've never been able to gain access to it. Things have always been either more deserted, more shut up indoors, or they've been too impersonal.

I need everyone to be living on everyone else's lap, grapevine gossip, being on a first-name basis with all the neighbours because I haven't a fucking clue what their surnames are.

My parents have managed to do it in a very suburban neighbourhood. They always have visitors, are always visiting. Someone comes over from a house or two away every day to play cribbage with Dad. Mom's invited out for a walk or a movie or some arts class with a call or visit every other day.

So I know it's possible, but I don't have whatever the necessary skills are to build it. For me, I need it, and it has to be the natural consequence of the built environment.

I've never lived for an extended time in Europe, vacations only - but I imagine it's easier there to achieve this type of... fully engaged lifestyle.
__________________
Note to self: "The plural of anecdote is not evidence."
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #66  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2014, 12:21 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 68,143
Quote:
Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker View Post

I've never lived for an extended time in Europe, vacations only - but I imagine it's easier there to achieve this type of... fully engaged lifestyle.
I am not sure that is always or even usually the case in Europe. Buildings there tend to be a lot larger than what you have on your street, and a typical residential street will have a lot more pass-through pedestrian traffic by non-residents. Things can be quite impersonal over there even in dense living conditions.
__________________
The Last Word.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #67  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2014, 12:22 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 68,143
Quote:
Originally Posted by kool maudit View Post
i don't know you aside from our exchanges on the forum, but i feel like you're already a sort of montrealer somehow. i would place your neighborhood as eastern plateau, somewhere around st-hubert and marie-anne, maybe mentana.
Thanks. It would make for an interesting thread. City alter egos of SSP forumers.
__________________
The Last Word.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #68  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2014, 12:26 PM
SignalHillHiker's Avatar
SignalHillHiker SignalHillHiker is offline
I ♣ Baby Seals
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Sin Jaaawnz, Newf'nland
Posts: 34,724
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I am not sure that is always or even usually the case in Europe. Buildings there tend to be a lot larger than what you have on your street, and a typical residential street will have a lot more pass-through pedestrian traffic by non-residents. Things can be quite impersonal over there even in dense living conditions.
Absolutely - especially in western and northern Europe. As a tourist there, I found the people to be very friendly but not all that engaging. It can feel very cold, as though people are mad at you.

From what I understand, the lifestyle I want does exist in much of Southern and Eastern Europe. Warm, passionate, noisy and nosy cultures from Portugal to Bulgaria.

Maybe it's just a result of poverty and hard times that lingers here and there. But I definitely need it.
__________________
Note to self: "The plural of anecdote is not evidence."
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #69  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2014, 12:37 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 68,143
Quote:
Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker View Post
Absolutely - especially in western and northern Europe. As a tourist there, I found the people to be very friendly but not all that engaging. It can feel very cold, as though people are mad at you.

From what I understand, the lifestyle I want does exist in much of Southern and Eastern Europe. Warm, passionate, noisy and nosy cultures from Portugal to Bulgaria.

Maybe it's just a result of poverty and hard times that lingers here and there. But I definitely need it.
City populations also appear to be less transient and mobile in southern Europe. You're much more likely to have a Signora Antonelli, who's lived in the same place for 40 years, as a neighbour,
__________________
The Last Word.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #70  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2014, 12:38 PM
miketoronto miketoronto is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 9,978
Quote:
Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker View Post
Absolutely - especially in western and northern Europe. As a tourist there, I found the people to be very friendly but not all that engaging. It can feel very cold, as though people are mad at you.
I find Canadian's to be the same way, friendly but not all engaging. I really noticed this after living in the USA, where people talk to you just standing on the corner.
__________________
Miketoronto
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #71  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2014, 12:47 PM
kool maudit's Avatar
kool maudit kool maudit is offline
video et taceo
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 13,883
danes are reserved like anglo-canadians, and they have a similar habit of really dividing friends from acquaintances. they also seem to have this carnival-type thing, though, where the world of drinking is outlandish and no-holds-barred, and this is used to create shortcuts or wormholes through the ordinary reserve. all drinking nations have this, but danes have it a lot, and without the violence of, say, england or scotland.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #72  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2014, 12:51 PM
SignalHillHiker's Avatar
SignalHillHiker SignalHillHiker is offline
I ♣ Baby Seals
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Sin Jaaawnz, Newf'nland
Posts: 34,724
Quote:
Originally Posted by miketoronto View Post
I find Canadian's to be the same way, friendly but not all engaging. I really noticed this after living in the USA, where people talk to you just standing on the corner.
Yes, very similar. But I find mainland Canadians are generally and genuinely friendly. You have to make the first move.

The clearest way I can demonstrate it is... if I go out to a bar, alone, on the mainland, and make no effort to force myself on others - especially west of the Maritimes - it's quite likely that I'll spend the night alone and leave alone. If I do that here, I won't even get my first drink finished before I'm adopted by some group.

There's no work involved.

But once you're sitting and chatting with folks, they're just as friendly everywhere in Canada, I find. You still might encounter a little bit of mockery (based on being from here) in Toronto, and quite a bit more of that in the Maritimes, but just put your foot down strongly from the outset, and it's fine.

My landlord in Kenora, Ontario, drove my stuff to Winnipeg for me when I moved. Wouldn't accept any money, I had to take him and his wife out for dinner just to give something back.

When I got my eyebrow pierced in Quebec City, I was a little nervous. The woman babied me, told me every detail ("You'll feel a pretty bad pinch from the clamp, but you won't even feel the needle, I promise"), even took me out for a drink after.

So people still make time to be friendly.

It's a little more superficial than meeting people here because you don't have that shared history. You meet so-and-so at a pub here, if you're from here, and within five minutes you have ethnic, religious, and settlement history settled, and have identified at least a few people you know in common.

That lasts forever, I suppose, even among people who moved away. mrnyc is a cousin of mine, we discovered, on my mother's side. He's fully American, has never been here. Meeting him through SSP PMs was a lot like meeting people here. "So your Grandmother is X, right? O.K., she's my great Aunt", etc.
__________________
Note to self: "The plural of anecdote is not evidence."
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #73  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2014, 1:56 PM
Martin Mtl's Avatar
Martin Mtl Martin Mtl is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 8,953
Quote:
Originally Posted by niwell View Post
I feel that way about Toronto, but am also acutely aware of the city's shortcomings. Despite not being born here I knew I wanted to move at some point as I spent a significant amount of time here each year (family always lived here). I know there are better places in the world, but I'm happy and I know the city very well at this point. It's the first place I've lived that has really felt like home. That makes a big difference. I could probably make more money if I moved back to Calgary.

So yeah, it's a good feeling to truly care about a place. Even though it's giving me severe anxiety around election time...
I think the more one feel passionately about a place, the more one becomes aware of its shortcomings. Being critical of Montreal is a natural thing for me. It's because I have a passion for my city that I'm also very critical of it. I will not cheers every single building proposal just because it´s a new proposal. If it sucks, it sucks. I feel my city deserve the best.

I tried not to do the same with other cities on this forum because of the thin skin of certain forumers who take any negative opinion on a proposal as an attack against their city. Like we say in french, qui aime bien chatie bien!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #74  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2014, 1:59 PM
SignalHillHiker's Avatar
SignalHillHiker SignalHillHiker is offline
I ♣ Baby Seals
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Sin Jaaawnz, Newf'nland
Posts: 34,724
The shortcomings are part of the charm of any established city.

Every time the power goes out, or I have to walk around a light pole in the middle of the sidewalk, or the car in front of me just randomly stops and parks in the left lane as the guy dashes into a superette...

I hate it, I complain about it, I bitch and moan about it... but I love it.
__________________
Note to self: "The plural of anecdote is not evidence."
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #75  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2014, 2:15 PM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: La vraie capitale
Posts: 23,612
Quote:
Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker View Post
Absolutely - especially in western and northern Europe. As a tourist there, I found the people to be very friendly but not all that engaging. It can feel very cold, as though people are mad at you.

From what I understand, the lifestyle I want does exist in much of Southern and Eastern Europe. Warm, passionate, noisy and nosy cultures from Portugal to Bulgaria.

Maybe it's just a result of poverty and hard times that lingers here and there. But I definitely need it.
You might be disappointed by the European "Latins", and by extension the Latin Americans. The personalities/cultures may be more noisy or less reserved or whatever, but in many cases, they are extremely reluctant to bring outsiders into their homes, which are the exclusive domain of family and intimate friends. The divide between public and private is stronger than that in northern Europe and North America, in my experience.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #76  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2014, 2:17 PM
SignalHillHiker's Avatar
SignalHillHiker SignalHillHiker is offline
I ♣ Baby Seals
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Sin Jaaawnz, Newf'nland
Posts: 34,724
I don't know enough to respond. The South Americans I've met here have been perfectly... perfect, in terms of interacting with them. But they're in a foreign country, alone usually... so I simply don't know what the reverse would be like.

jeddy1989 went to university in Chile and lived for a while in Venezuela. He seemed to be adopted by everyone he met.
__________________
Note to self: "The plural of anecdote is not evidence."
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #77  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2014, 3:37 PM
mousquet's Avatar
mousquet mousquet is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Greater Paris, France
Posts: 4,581
@Signal & Timer You'll find some cultural specifics to any so-called Latin people, but stereotypes shouldn't take over my minds. Once I heard a Swedish woman say - I dream of a Swedish husband and an Italian lover. That's naive. There's no Latin lover. There are just people feeling fine in their shoes here and there, while others have some issues with themselves. That is a common fact anywhere on Earth.

The most genuinely Latin people are definitely the Italians, though. We know them very well in France as we're widely an offshoot of Italy's original Catholicism, Renaissance and so on. Owed to southern Italy's economy that's been way too slow (definitely because of their nasty mafia ruining it all), their cultural and historic influence over Europe as a whole is often wrongly underrated. Yet culturally speaking, it's a massive nation, bigger than any other on the continent, I think. Again, my country itself owes quite a lot to theirs, I'll admit. That said, in my little experience, Italian men are not easy to deal with. They usually have an amazing sense of family values, which is fine. They are very faithful to their families indeed, that's an undeniable virtue. On the other hand, they also often show the wrong side of it: when you're not one of their very relatives, they tend to take you as a rival or anything bad they distrust, which is weird, tiring and deeply annoying when your feelings to them are yet benevolent. No matter how sophisticated their country may traditionally be, they still have a few good things to learn, eh.

When they get rid of their sucky mafia, you'll hear much more of it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #78  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2014, 6:00 PM
ciudad_del_norte's Avatar
ciudad_del_norte ciudad_del_norte is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Amiskwaciwâskahikan/Mohkinstsis
Posts: 986
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Mtl View Post
I think the more one feel passionately about a place, the more one becomes aware of its shortcomings. Being critical of Montreal is a natural thing for me. It's because I have a passion for my city that I'm also very critical of it. I will not cheers every single building proposal just because it´s a new proposal. If it sucks, it sucks. I feel my city deserve the best.

I tried not to do the same with other cities on this forum because of the thin skin of certain forumers who take any negative opinion on a proposal as an attack against their city. Like we say in french, qui aime bien chatie bien!
I think it is common for people who are passionate about their city to be more critical of it. I think what gets lost among people in the Canada section is that there is something different between being critical of your own city, and doing so of a city thousands of km away that you have no real personal interest and attachment too. In this case, suddenly almost everybody gets "thin-skinned." It doesn't take long when somebody critiques a city across the country before people come out of the woodwork to defend it, and it happens with nearly all cities represented on here.

It's a common human sort of reaction, you can critique what is your own, but don't you dare do so if you are on outsider with no functional understanding of what you are being critical of. I'm not less guilty, I can tell somebody how incredibly ridiculous I think Alberta politics are, but I am easily agitated when someone tries to tell me something about a cultural and political landscape they obviously don't understand. If it appears that passionate group in any other city in this country is cheering on every single proposal they get, you might be surprised to see how often the local forums are just constant negativity towards seemingly everything.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #79  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2014, 6:29 PM
miketoronto miketoronto is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 9,978
I am very passionate about Toronto, and also very critical, because I know we can do better in some areas.
But being away from Toronto from work has really made me see how much I love Toronto and want to be a part of it.
__________________
Miketoronto
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #80  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2014, 6:34 PM
mistercorporate's Avatar
mistercorporate mistercorporate is offline
The Fruit of Discipline
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Toronto
Posts: 4,036
Quote:
Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker View Post
I don't know enough to respond. The South Americans I've met here have been perfectly... perfect, in terms of interacting with them. But they're in a foreign country, alone usually... so I simply don't know what the reverse would be like.

jeddy1989 went to university in Chile and lived for a while in Venezuela. He seemed to be adopted by everyone he met.
Hey Signal,

While I agree that people like Latin Americans, Portuguese and Lebanese are generally super friendly and outgoing you'll find the type of in your face socializing and friendliness quite common in small towns throughout North America and Western Europe. For example, even here in reserved Ontario, people in small towns like Cambridge, South River and other towns with less than 200,000 people you'll find that you're almost always greeted by everyone who passes you by. People will engage and start involved conversations for no apparent reason, often going out of their way for you. This may be more common in Atlantic Canada but that may just be because of the higher ratio of smaller towns. What you're seeking may be a city-size thing as opposed to a cultural thing. Of course, this requires the town to have a main street even if it's small, which most towns in Ontario older than a century have. Noticed this dichotomy quite acutely in Paris, while Parisians are focused and often aloof, you get into the countryside or the South and people will accost you and ask you a million questions. I once had a 2 hour conversation with an old man and his granddaughter on the train to Southern France and we didn't even speak the same language, our body language, sign language, smiles and intonation did most of the work. You'll never get that in Paris unless it's a transplant from Southern France.
__________________
MLS: Toronto FC
Canadian Premier League: York 9 FC
NBA: Raptors
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 3:44 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.