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  #41  
Old Posted May 19, 2018, 4:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Yes, a lot of the typically American (bad) stuff raised on here by Canadians is repulsive to "blue city Americans" who don't identify with it either.

It would be instructive to do a comparison of "blue city Americans" and their Canadian semblables to see what the true differences are.

It might be a tricky exercise though I personally do believe there are some.

For example, I remember how Barack Obama used to talk about the virtues of free enterprise and even capitalism in his speeches and in other instances. It would be quite rare for a Canadian politician to do that as spontaneously and naturally as he would do it.
That's a good point about the use of terms like "free enterprise," and I'd also add the much greater reference to the military, with titles like "commander in chief" being used constantly.

I agree with everyone that's saying that political differences between urban areas are slight, but they're still there. For instance, we don't have the suburban Republican equivalent. Sure people in wealthier areas tend to vote more right-wing here, but they would definitely not overlook the hard-right policies of Trump to protect their pocketbooks the way that millions of suburbanites did in the US. Stephen Harper (as he governed, maybe not as he believes) would probably be caught in political limbo in the US, the same way guys like John Kasich or Joe Manchin seem to be. I think this is pretty clear proof that while the urban/rural split is similar in both, the centre is further left in Canada.
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  #42  
Old Posted May 19, 2018, 4:27 PM
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I dunno. A lot of Canadians - especially young ones - seem to conflate goings-on in the U.S. with the situation here at home. And always have - even back when I was young.

I mean... St. John's has a Black Lives Matter movement, does it not?

My kids have had always had lockdown codes in place and regular drills every year since they've been in elementary school.
Interesting. We knew there were secret codes teachers could use over the PA in case there was an intruder, but there was never any mention of guns, and no drills either. Just fire and earthquake drills. The school gun violence thing was always very firmly in the "couldn't happen here" category when I was in school.

But I take your larger point. We did have anti-gun protests in Vancouver after Parkland, we had anti-Trump protests when he got elected, we have Black Lives Matter YVR (with a whopping 1,103 twitter followers). We've talked about this before, people do seem to have a harder time creating their own movements here so they latch onto others. We do have constant housing and gentrification protests in Vancouver though, and obviously pipelines too, so we do have stuff.

But I mean you'd think in our context a "Native Lives Matter" movement might exist in one way or another. But another part of me also thinks that we just have less problems, so it's hard to come up with other things to protest. I realized this as I was just searching for other examples to bring up and couldn't think of any.
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  #43  
Old Posted May 19, 2018, 4:33 PM
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I've always found it strange that Canadian political leaders don't talk about free enterprise and capitalism as virtues. Our entire society is based on those things.
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  #44  
Old Posted May 19, 2018, 5:17 PM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
I've always found it strange that Canadian political leaders don't talk about free enterprise and capitalism as virtues. Our entire society is based on those things.
But it's not the mythological basis for our state the way it is in the US.
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  #45  
Old Posted May 19, 2018, 6:34 PM
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Our mythos was loyalty to the British Empire but oops you know.
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  #46  
Old Posted May 19, 2018, 8:38 PM
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I think it`s important to separate anti-American and anti-Americans in this conversation.

I would say there has always been a strong anti-American attitude in Canada often swaying with which party is in power in the US. This stems from our inability to understand and relate to American society, values, and norms.

This is VERY different from anti-Americans viewpoint. No one in Canada goes to the US expecting to be treated like crap and for good reason. Americans themselves are always very helpful, polite, accomodating, and eager to meet Canadians who they view as great friends. This however is NOT reciprocated by Canadians who tend to be very polite to all visitors with the noteable exception of Americans., Canadians can be pretty nasty to our American tourists with our ~holier than thou~ attitude and our ` I like The States but you couldn`t pay me enough to live there` mindset.

Of course this would require Canadians taking a very critical look in the mirror which we have a habit of avoiding by using the old stand-by that ` it could be worse, we could be living in the US`. Canadians have a very annoying habit of downplaying our critcal socio/economic issues by comparing ourselves to the US to make ourselves feel better and avoid the topic.

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  #47  
Old Posted May 19, 2018, 9:49 PM
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Whatever the US is, we are a dirty-fingered junior partner of.
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  #48  
Old Posted May 20, 2018, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by kool maudit View Post
Whatever the US is, we are a dirty-fingered junior partner of.
Some would argue we don't have much of a choice.
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  #49  
Old Posted May 20, 2018, 2:06 AM
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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
I think it`s important to separate anti-American and anti-Americans in this conversation.

I would say there has always been a strong anti-American attitude in Canada often swaying with which party is in power in the US. This stems from our inability to understand and relate to American society, values, and norms.

This is VERY different from anti-Americans viewpoint. No one in Canada goes to the US expecting to be treated like crap and for good reason. Americans themselves are always very helpful, polite, accomodating, and eager to meet Canadians who they view as great friends. This however is NOT reciprocated by Canadians who tend to be very polite to all visitors with the noteable exception of Americans., Canadians can be pretty nasty to our American tourists with our ~holier than thou~ attitude and our ` I like The States but you couldn`t pay me enough to live there` mindset.

Of course this would require Canadians taking a very critical look in the mirror which we have a habit of avoiding by using the old stand-by that ` it could be worse, we could be living in the US`. Canadians have a very annoying habit of downplaying our critcal socio/economic issues by comparing ourselves to the US to make ourselves feel better and avoid the topic.

******* As a caveat, I fully admit that I am guilty of all of the above. ********
Well said.
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  #50  
Old Posted May 20, 2018, 2:27 AM
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Originally Posted by kool maudit View Post
I am playing devil's advocate a bit because there are subtle differences, they are just hard to put a finger on. Because in many ways Canada sort of FEELS more like a Northern European country than does the US... its norms match up more with Denmark or Sweden than with even those of Los Angeles.

But Canada has a history and a reason it was created that has nothing to do with social democracy or progressive politics of the post-60s type. If Sweden went hard right, it would still be Sweden -- it would just be in a new phase.

What are we that we have always been?
*Not* part of the United States of America?
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  #51  
Old Posted May 20, 2018, 2:30 AM
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I don't think these differences are actually ideological. They are lived realities that help define a society.


There is a difference between "at least we're not..." and stating observations. It's probably easier for Sweden to define how they differ from the US in that way as well.


If the US were to suddenly fall off the face of the earth, would Canada have an existential crisis? My sense is that we would not. The hum of Canada would be the same. If Quebec or Ontario were to fall off the face of the earth would Canada have an existential crisis? Probably.
This is so absurdly inconceivable that it's impossible for me to come up with a good philosophical answer.

In practical terms, though, if the U.S. suddenly fell of the face of the earth, most Canadians would be extremely deprived in terms of entertainment options, the people who run my kids' activities would have to find a new way to communicate with us parents to replace Facebook in a hurry, and the price of fruits and vegetables would likely go through the roof... I just thought of those in about five seconds.
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  #52  
Old Posted May 20, 2018, 2:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
*Not* part of the United States of America?
A stable-if-not-boring country rooted in pragmatism rather than mythology?

I really mean that, and not just in contrast to the US. We talk a lot about Canada's lack of nationalistic culture and how most Canadians don't care about this, but maybe that's just because as long as they're safe and have stuff to do, they're good.

It's a hard question to answer, and not just for Canada. Since it was the example kool maudit decided to use, what is Sweden? What is Australia? What is Botswana, or Laos or Colombia? Some countries have easier answers than others, but for the most part my instinct is to write a paragraph about each country's characteristics, not provide a grand one-line description.
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  #53  
Old Posted May 20, 2018, 2:35 AM
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This post is a pretty good fit for this thread:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...postcount=2645
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  #54  
Old Posted May 20, 2018, 2:40 AM
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Originally Posted by GlassCity View Post
A stable-if-not-boring country rooted in pragmatism rather than mythology?

I really mean that, and not just in contrast to the US. We talk a lot about Canada's lack of nationalistic culture and how most Canadians don't care about this, but maybe that's just because as long as they're safe and have stuff to do, they're good.

It's a hard question to answer, and not just for Canada. Since it was the example kool maudit decided to use, what is Sweden? What is Australia? What is Botswana, or Laos or Colombia? Some countries have easier answers than others, but for the most part my instinct is to write a paragraph about each country's characteristics, not provide a grand one-line description.
I don't think anyone is going to start writing out national narratives for any of these countries on here, but if we're honest we have to admit that especially for someone familiar with them (as we are with Canada), it would probably be easier to do than it would be for us to do it for Canada.
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  #55  
Old Posted May 20, 2018, 2:49 AM
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That's a good point about the use of terms like "free enterprise," and I'd also add the much greater reference to the military, with titles like "commander in chief" being used constantly.
.
That's true too, although Canada has gotten a bit more militaristic since the start of the 21st century. Certainly more than it's ever been in my lifetime.

That Highway of Heroes phenom on the 401 is not something you would have seen in my childhood, for example.
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  #56  
Old Posted May 20, 2018, 2:55 AM
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Wouldn't most of the world belong to the "blue tribe", including most from the country in which you now reside? Belonging to the "blue tribe" seems perfectly normal considering the alternative. Our differences aren't just ideological though, they are also statistical, geographical, historical, etc., but then so are our similarities.
Sure the "blue tribe" values are found in most western democracies, and even dominant in most of them.

But most places don't live the "blue tribe" existence in lockstep with their American brethren to the point of, say, getting their weekly political satire from SNL, or having domestic movies relegated to the foreign section of their video stores (back when we had video stores), or travelling across the border to Washington to attend marches, etc....

That was pretty much kool's point: a blue tribe member in Paris isn't *that* interchangeable with a blue tribe member in London. And it's not just a question of language. Even between London and NYC or Montreal and Paris there are major differences. Even if, sure, these types of people from across the Atlantic would likely get along splendidly well.
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  #57  
Old Posted May 20, 2018, 3:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I don't think anyone is going to start writing out national narratives for any of these countries on here, but if we're honest we have to admit that especially for someone familiar with them (as we are with Canada), it would probably be easier to do than it would be for us to do it for Canada.
I don't know, we may not have a very deep sense of national culture or symbolism or even togetherness, but surely every country has a national narrative.

In Canada's case, it's a British and French colonial state that over time shed its reliance from the monarchy, developed a much closer relationship with the US and now enjoys a subdued, but prosperous way of life that is occasionally challenged with intra-national conflict and its over-reliance on the US.

It's boring, sure, but not every country can be about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness while fighting off government tyranny.
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  #58  
Old Posted May 20, 2018, 3:06 AM
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That's true too, although Canada has gotten a bit more militaristic since the start of the 21st century. Certainly more than it's ever been in my lifetime.

That Highway of Heroes phenom on the 401 is not something you would have seen in my childhood, for example.
Yeah that's true, and maybe it will become more natural one day. But for now, veteran's appreciation nights at Canucks or Lions games will always feel awkward.
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  #59  
Old Posted May 20, 2018, 3:09 AM
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Sure the "blue tribe" values are found in most western democracies, and even dominant in most of them.

But most places don't live the "blue tribe" existence in lockstep with their American brethren to the point of, say, getting their weekly political satire from SNL, or having domestic movies relegated to the foreign section of their video stores (back when we had video stores), or travelling across the border to Washington to attend marches, etc....

That was pretty much kool's point: a blue tribe member in Paris isn't *that* interchangeable with a blue tribe member in London. And it's not just a question of language. Even between London and NYC or Montreal and Paris there are major differences. Even if, sure, these types of people from across the Atlantic would likely get along splendidly well.
And it's not like we don't try either, with This Hour has 22 Minutes being the first thing that comes to mind. But it's really hard to listen to your music when your neighbour downstairs is blasting heavy metal.

If there was a collection of countries here, it might be more spread out. But with there only being two, and one being the clear dominant one, it's natural for its culture and even politics to overpower our own.
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  #60  
Old Posted May 20, 2018, 7:46 AM
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I think after harper for 10 years and the fact many progressive Canadians are waking up to the reality we aren't as progressive as we thought we were thanks to the internet, the levels of anti americanism are dropping and levels of national anxiety over who the hell we are as a people have been rising.

Now most discussions about the US and how bad it is seem to be political though they have been my entire life, the difference is today it's more of a pity conversation and pity outlook rather than one of outright hate. I think Iraq in 2003 was the last time I remember seeing strong anti americanism in Canada and it was all based around many canadians belief in our peace keeping more peace loving pacifistic history which is more of myth then reality in actuality.
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