Official Brian Bowman Thread

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by Cyro

What's the dollar figure you put on a human life? Next time you respond to a bomb threat let me know how it feels?

I am not deep in police operations but by lay person understanding in the APC would not be the unit used to respond to a bomb call. The APC is used by what people outside the service would typically know as a SWAT team. Might that money have been better spent on other gear for the team to keep them safe? As I already said earlier, the number of times police arrive on scene and are actively under fire, aka when the APC would actually benefit them, is almost absolute zero in Winnipeg. Again as someone not familiar with the detailed working of the service I am sure if you said to that unit they can buy new gear to improve officer safety but that the APC is off the table they would have had other suggestions that had a similar real world impact but maybe not quite as splashy a PR presence.

In terms of the helicopter, my question from day one was why a helicopter that needed to be staffed when a minimum of two people while it is in service? A military style drone that could be operated by a single person and be operable in more extreme weather with a reportedly lower purchase and operational cost seems like something that would have been a better path to choose. Sadly its a sunk cost now and we can't go backwards.

[biguc]

It is a sunk cost, and that's why we ought to actually sink it. The city could put a dozen surveillance drones in the sky for less than the helicopter, and with far lower operating costs. Sell the helicopter to somewhere else desperate to look like a big city.

[Cyro]

Originally Posted by CoryB

I am not deep in police operations but by lay person understanding in the APC would not be the unit used to respond to a bomb call

Just for clarification:

Supt. Gord Perrier
Perrier says it will be used primarily for rescue missions and transporting personnel in high-risk situations, such as armed standoffs or explosives investigations.

Source

Either way, we're not going to see this from the same perspective. I've had the some what difficult experience of attending incidents in the past where my life may have been in danger or the threat level was high. Cost? White elephant? Some may feel that way. I'm not going to argue the point from my own personal experiences. But your a taxpayer, you have the right to question these types of expenditures. Enough said on my part.

[cllew]

As the APC unit probably has a long life (apparently 20+ years), divide the purchase cost over the lifespan and its probably manageable. I can't see the yearly operating cost being that much unless they run a lot of calls each year or put it in a lot of PR parades.

[CoryB]

Even if the cost is spread out as cllew suggests there are still annual costs. You don't just park the thing and store it like a hovercraft in a museum. It needs to be kept operationally ready.

[Wolf13]

A helicopter or land tank, necessary or otherwise, couldn't possibly attribute entirely to the rising police budgets.

City needs to figure something out.

[cheswick]

Originally Posted by Wolf13

A helicopter or land tank, necessary or otherwise, couldn't possibly attribute entirely to the rising police budgets.

City needs to figure something out.

People can talk about tanks and helicopters but the reality is a large portion of it is pay increases. Police salaries are far outpacing inflation. More than 1000 people making over 100k a year.


Police budget increased an average of 7.5% over 2005 to 2015 while inflation increased only 1.7% a year. That's mind boggling.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by cheswick

Police budget increased an average of 7.5% over 2005 to 2015 while inflation increased only 1.7% a year. That's mind boggling.

Compounding your average 1.7% inflation over the 10 year period you reference is actually an 18.4% increase, far less than you say the police received (7.5%).

[cheswick]

Originally Posted by CoryB

Compounding your average 1.7% inflation over the 10 year period you reference is actually an 18.4% increase, far less than you say the police received (7.5%).

They are both yearly figures. The police budget doubled over that period. So 200%+ vs 18% inflation. Slightly misleading cause population grew as well, but even when accounting for cost per capita the police budget increase by 186% over that period (6.4% per year).

[biguc]

Originally Posted by cheswick

People can talk about tanks and helicopters but the reality is a large portion of it is pay increases. Police salaries are far outpacing inflation. More than 1000 people making over 100k a year.


Police budget increased an average of 7.5% over 2005 to 2015 while inflation increased only 1.7% a year. That's mind boggling.

This is true, but Winnipeg's police and fire departments get whatever toys they want. You don't see police in other Canadian cities universally driving brand new cars--they usually beat around in old Crown Vics and Tauruses.

As for the APC, it presents more problems than just its cost. As the cliché goes, when you have a hammer everything looks like a nail. The police may have justified getting an APC for bomb threats and armed standoffs, but they're actively using the thing, and we've had no bomb threats or armed standoffs. Using the thing for routine police work that never before called for an APC presents terrible optics to communities the police are supposed to protect. The North End, for example, is not Falluja, and rolling through the neighbourhood to serve a warrant like you can't trust its citizens to not drop an IED in your lap is messed up. That will not engender community cooperation and peace. Citizens are not soldiers. Police are not soldiers. Pitting them against each other in an arms race is stupid.

In Canada, we've made baby steps towards disarming police, a move that typically yields positive outcomes. The APC is a piece of American style policing, which results suggest is the worst of any wealthy country. The APC is not just an expense, it's a step backwards for Winnipeg's police force.

[Wolf13]

I'm all for reducing the perceived toughness of policing for a more civil discourse, but I certainly do not mind the ability to USE the APC or Helicopter if they were needed. I think the police should the means to do their job and to have an expensive specialty tool might seem wasteful until you need it.

However, the use of brand new cars and equipment and consistent salary increases irk me.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by biguc

It is a sunk cost, and that's why we ought to actually sink it. The city could put a dozen surveillance drones in the sky for less than the helicopter, and with far lower operating costs. Sell the helicopter to somewhere else desperate to look like a big city.

^ Love it! But, but we're so "big" city with our vanity-copter!

[OTA in Winnipeg]

WINNIPEG – The city’s executive policy committee is recommending council ratify a contract agreement that gives Winnipeg police seven raises over four years.

The agreement, which is retroactive to December 2012 gives members of the Winnipeg Police Association the following raises:

January 2013 – 2%
July 2013 – 1.5%
January 2014 – 2%
July 2014 – 1.5%
January 2015 – 2%
July 2015 – 1%
January 2016 – 3%

Police constables currently start with annual pay of $46,835.38, which increases to $85,155.24 after five years of service.

By January 2016, a starting police officer will earn more than $53,000, while a five-year veteran will earn $96,850.

http://globalnews.ca/news/1217670/wi...lice-contract/
Two raises a year? Did I read that right? What other profession gets these kinds of raises? Absolutely ridiculous.

[cllew]

One maritime city is trying to get rid of their "free" APC according to the CBC

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...138028?cmp=rss

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by OTA in Winnipeg

Two raises a year? Did I read that right? What other profession gets these kinds of raises? Absolutely ridiculous.

That is actually pretty standard for a union contract. There is a general pay increase that applies to all employees from new hires to top paid long service members. Then you have a pay scale for each position and are awarded a merit increase after each year of service you complete. In theory, if there is cause to withhold a merit increase it can be held back but in reality that rarely happens. There are a fixed number of merit increases though. It is also possible a new hire is not started at the lowest pay level for a position.

That said, if your employer is using the stepped pay scales with merit increases you typically don't get to negotiate a salary increase with the bonus, receive any sort of paid bonus (year-end, Christmas, profit share, etc) and are otherwise heavily constrained on what additional compensation you can receive from your job.

--

It is pretty telling that New Glasgow is trying to give away their APC and Halifax is considering acquiring one but isn't sure the "free APC" is right for them. The comments from the police forces in the story basically echo my outside observations of the need in Winnipeg, it is limited at best, sort of like owning a hovercraft in Winnipeg...

[Wolf13]

Unions....

[Authentic_City]

Originally Posted by Wolf13

Unions....

Unions aren't to blame for this situation. Katz and other city politicians are to blame. The city has always caved to the demands of the police union. Remember when Katz was quoted saying: "I can guarantee none of us would do that job for what they get paid"

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/loc...129608173.html

Also, remember that the WPS union endorsed Katz.

This is not a union problem. This is a political problem. Nobody wants to stand up to the police association and say "no".

[pacman]

Originally Posted by Wolf13

LOL. Sorry, not this self-righteous "just slow down" stuff again.

Caveat: School zones I understand. It should be 40, but the city has shown to care more about $$$ than safety. It personally pisses me off when the city dresses up tax grabs as "good-guy initiatives" to get the public to mindlessly support them. That said the principle of driving slower around schools is ok. To be a vulture and reach a quota is dumb though.

Speeding in general? Our fines are too high, are limits often low, and I have never been in a city of over 500,000 that drives slower and dumber than Winnipeg. Go to any other moderate to large city in Canada or US, hell go to Europe. Don't take a cab in Mexico, that would be like a roller coaster to peggers. Life is busy and we have things to do, and the moral posturing from slow (yet bad) drivers is nauseating.

To justify extortionate fines under the guise of safety fools nobody. I got pulled over for doing 73 in a 50, over the Provencher bridge. I honestly thought it was a 60 zone because it's a wide road and has an entirely seperat bridge for pedestrians. Nope. I got nabbed, and I was running late, now even later. Why? Because I'm busy.

Sorry, touchy subject for me



I would be surprised if he wouldn't. That's just me though. I'd be happy to see him go, because I don't think he'd get elected as an MP here. He sounds like he is trying to be, wants to be a politician. Not in a good way, but ion that negative way where people say "he sounds too much like a politician"... a tone politicians usually try to avoid. Bowman's vanity goes straight for it though.

Nor should developers pay for infrastructure that's already paid for. If we stopped paying property taxes or saw a reduction in proerty taxes after 10 years then there would be a point. But my previous home was 100 years old, and has been "paying for growth" for WELL beyond the cost of growth it incurred.

That and he simply tried to do it poorly.

This

Also this.

to tie in with the quote below...

Skylar is right. Show me what you can do, not what you can charge. Your suggestion is based on the assumption that you cannot take money away. Police and Fire are fat as hell on that government dough, and that needs trimming. Services should be audited for efficiency of performance and necessity, even social ones.

After all, WE'RE paying for them and we're paying the raised taxes should Bowman refuse to CREATE efficiencies.

Pallister (and I'm not quite on board yet with him) has had the balls to say "yep we spend to much we're cutting this and that". If you "need" money, cut money. Don't just keep coming back, it insults the citizen.

A little late, but did you steal my brain as you were typing that? Agree on everything

[pacman]

I wonder what the public's reaction would be if Bowman had a press conference and said "wage freeze for WFPS and WPS". I for one would applaud until my hands hurt because those departments' budgets cripple the city's ability to do anything meaningful in other departments. That being said, I applaud until my hands hurt the members of those departments for the jobs they do, I couldn't / wouldn't do it.

Everyone wants the "good guys" like policemen firemen, teachers, nurses, etc... to make good money but there needs to be a balance. I wonder if anyone has stats on how their wages compare to other similar cities in Canada and also how they compare when considering cost of living. Also, how Winnipeg's budget for those departments compare as a percentage of overall budget and per capita to similar cities. My respect and appreciation for their service is real and I know that in principle you can't put a price on a life or on things like health or safety, but the real world isn't in principle, it's in dollars and cents whether we like it or not.

I don't have any basis in facts or sources, I just have a feeling that these departments are relatively over funded and employees are relatively overpaid. If that is in fact true and not just a feeling then I hope Bowman or someone else has the balls to tighten the belt.

[esquire]

^ It is amazing how good the emergency services unions are at wrapping politicians around their fingers. For years the WPA and UFFW have said that their members would leave for Calgary, Edmonton, Grande Prairie or wherever if the City didn't step up and pay more. Well, at what point does the City say it's tapped out and invite those police officers/firefighters/paramedics to go west for these supposedly generous raises that rain down automatically there every year?

No one begrudges emergency services workers a fair wage, but when you consider what the City is dealing with... maybe it needs to find a way to take a brief pause from giving the 150K traffic cops a generous annual raise. Not a salary cut, just a freeze.