Nortel Campus Sold to PWGSC - Future DND

[reidjr]

Originally Posted by rodionx

It's a good point. I've had not one but two of the organizations I worked for move out to the suburbs - one to outermost Gatineau and the other to Kanata. In both cases, I just found a job closer to downtown. Lots of people did the same. Organizations that move out of the core should brace themselves to lose a LOT of people.

The flip side is that as a downtown resident, I don't get a lot of benefit from those office buildings in the core. Transit links, yes, but I also get thousands of suburban dwellers driving in and out of my neighbourhood every weekday, and not leaving much behind except fumes and shuttered storefronts. I'd rather see more residential condo towers in the core than office towers. Maybe not to Vancouver-like extremes, since a lot of people live downtown to be near work (self included), but the loss of commercial tenants ain't all bad.

Maybe they will lose some but the sburbs does appeal to alot of people.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by reidjr

Maybe they will lose some but the sburbs does appeal to alot of people.

Indeed. I live not too far from Library and Archives Canada on Boulevard de la Cité in Gatineau and this is apparently a highly sought-after location for public servants.

[rodionx]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Indeed. I live not too far from Library and Archives Canada on Boulevard de la Cité in Gatineau and this is apparently a highly sought-after location for public servants.

No it's not! That was where my office moved. The only person in the entire section who considered that a highly sought-after location was the one that actually lived out there. The other 98% went through all the stages of grief. I basically didn't have an HR person for a year because most of them found jobs elsewhere. And then I found a job elsewhere.

Suburban commuters fare worst during suburban moves, because most of them will end up with longer trips. If you move your offices to Kanata, the Orleans and Gatineau people get the short end of the stick. Move to Gatineau or Orleans, and it's the same in reverse. Suburban transit users get the worst of it. Their commutes will increase by at least an hour each way, and the connections are terrible. It's like getting two or three hours added to your workday with no increase in pay. Or you can buy a second car, but then you're subtracting the car payments, gas and insurance from your pay. Either way, it's a bad deal for everyone except the minority that live in and around that particular suburb.

And I'm not even going to mention the fact that you can't amble over to Starbucks or the nearest sushi place at lunch. Instead, you're sitting in a break room watching your colleagues eat.

[reidjr]

Originally Posted by rodionx

No it's not! That was where my office moved. The only person in the entire section who considered that a highly sought-after location was the one that actually lived out there. The other 98% went through all the stages of grief. I basically didn't have an HR person for a year because most of them found jobs elsewhere. And then I found a job elsewhere.

Suburban commuters fare worst during suburban moves, because most of them will end up with longer trips. If you move your offices to Kanata, the Orleans and Gatineau people get the short end of the stick. Move to Gatineau or Orleans, and it's the same in reverse. Suburban transit users get the worst of it. Their commutes will increase by at least an hour each way, and the connections are terrible. It's like getting two or three hours added to your workday with no increase in pay. Or you can buy a second car, but then you're subtracting the car payments, gas and insurance from your pay. Either way, it's a bad deal for everyone except the minority that live in and around that particular suburb.

And I'm not even going to mention the fact that you can't amble over to Starbucks or the nearest sushi place at lunch. Instead, you're sitting in a break room watching your colleagues eat.

You can't alwas assume people will do the drive some may move out to the area.Sure you can go out to have a coffe or lunch its only a 5 minute drive to bells corners.Its aslo a 5 minute drive the other way to the movie thearter were there is resturants etc.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rodionx

No it's not! That was where my office moved. The only person in the entire section who considered that a highly sought-after location was the one that actually lived out there. The other 98% went through all the stages of grief. I basically didn't have an HR person for a year because most of them found jobs elsewhere. And then I found a job elsewhere.

Suburban commuters fare worst during suburban moves, because most of them will end up with longer trips. If you move your offices to Kanata, the Orleans and Gatineau people get the short end of the stick. Move to Gatineau or Orleans, and it's the same in reverse. Suburban transit users get the worst of it. Their commutes will increase by at least an hour each way, and the connections are terrible. It's like getting two or three hours added to your workday with no increase in pay. Or you can buy a second car, but then you're subtracting the car payments, gas and insurance from your pay. Either way, it's a bad deal for everyone except the minority that live in and around that particular suburb.

And I'm not even going to mention the fact that you can't amble over to Starbucks or the nearest sushi place at lunch. Instead, you're sitting in a break room watching your colleagues eat.

What I meant was that now that it is done it is highly sought-after by the many thousands of public servants living in that vicinity but who work elsewhere for the feds. Move a department to Orleans or Kanata and the same thing would happen. It's a transitional thing - those who for whom it is not convenient move on and people who are more local take their place. I live not too far from Place de la Cité and talk to lots of neighbours and acquaintances at school and kids' activities and those who are public servants would all love to go work there and apply to competitions at LAC-BAC like crazy when they open up.

Also, not to be disparaging and is only a demographic observation but likely most people you talked to were anglophones and/or Ontario residents. Talk to the francophones who live on the Quebec side and probably most were likely quite happy with the move.

BTW, I am only reporting on my observations as I too hate these types of moves to empty fields and far prefer workplaces in downtown Hull or Ottawa that are accessible by transit and walkable for all basic services.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by reidjr

You can't alwas assume people will do the drive some may move out to the area.Sure you can go out to have a coffe or lunch its only a 5 minute drive to bells corners.Its aslo a 5 minute drive the other way to the movie thearter were there is resturants etc.

LAC-BAC at Place de la Cité is close to Cinéma 9 and restaurants, etc. but it is not a five-minute drive to Bells Corners... Unless I am misunderstanding something here...

[rodionx]

Originally Posted by Acajack

What I meant was that now that it is done it is highly sought-after by the many thousands of public servants living in that vicinity but who work elsewhere for the feds. Move a department to Orleans or Kanata and the same thing would happen. It's a transitional thing - those who for whom it is not convenient move on and people who are more local take their place.

True, to a point. Over time the people that don't want to be there get out and new people for whom the location is convenient take those positions. It's a painful transition, though, because the first people to go are typically the ones with the skills that are most in demand. Organizations that do those moves also limit their recruiting pool over the long term. LAC has a longstanding retention problem, and that move didn't help.

Speaking of Nortel, it does have one advantage in that it will house a dense population of workers. They'll qualify for a cafeteria, at least, and they'll probably get semi decent bus service.

[reidjr]

Originally Posted by Acajack

LAC-BAC at Place de la Cité is close to Cinéma 9 and restaurants, etc. but it is not a five-minute drive to Bells Corners... Unless I am misunderstanding something here...

Sorry i meant the nortel campus.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rodionx

Organizations that do those moves also limit their recruiting pool over the long term.

I think it all evens out in the end. There is a huge number of people out there who avoid downtown jobs like the plague because a) they don`t want to pay high downtown parking rates and b) they don't want to take transit.
It seems totally nuts to me but the reality is that a significant proportion of the population would much rather drive from Kanata to Orleans and back every day if there is free parking at the end of the road, than work downtown even if it is half the distance (or more).
Plus, regardless of where they are located, these are still plum government jobs we are talking about. There always will be lots of takers when you consider the salary, job security, good benefits and a pension that for the average worker pretty much amounts to winning a $1 million lottery windfall.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by reidjr

Sorry i meant the nortel campus.

My mistake. You were on topic!

[Radster]

From what I heard from someone who works at DND in Gatineau, DND offices that are in scattered in Gatineau, will remain on the Quebec side for the most part, centralized in the 2 boul de la Carriere buildings (current one and the new one being built right beside). Its mostly all scattered Ottawa ones which will consolidate into the ex Nortel campus. At least its

[DubberDom]

I Think Orleans MPP Phil McNeely is paying attention... or perhaps he's a little miffed that they did not locate in Orleans

Originally Posted by Letter to the Editor EMC

MPP expresses concerns over DND move
Posted Oct 28, 2010 By Phil McNeely


After reading carefully the article, "DND set to take over Nortel Campus," in the Saturday, October 16th Citizen, I felt compelled to address the constituents of Ottawa-Orléans.

Not a word from our Member of Parliament is heard on the move of CFB Orléans to Kanata.

The Federal Government, which is never one to consider the environment nor a sustainable city, will follow through on this plan.

The move will take place over the next three to five years.

This is just in time for the City of Ottawa to place the bus transitway on the Queensway from Blair to Nicholas Street, a detour that will last three to four years. This stretch of the Queensway will basically be a parking lot. How many people want to share the Queensway with a bus transitway as they commute to Kanata from Orléans from 2015 to 2019? How long will it take to get through the SPLIT?

This is the same federal government that moved the RCMP jobs in the East End to Nepean to make Poilievre's riding sustainable. Those were his words. What did it do to Orléans, the lowest jobs per household in the city?

It is wrong to look at the price of a building as the only criteria when making huge decisions like emptying 1 million square feet of office space downtown.

At a time when the city is spending 2.1 billion dollars to build the start of a light rail, including a tunnel downtown and will tie up the Queensway for the East End with a bus transitway detour for three to four years, it is no time to move 5,000 DND employees to Kanata and lower revenues for the new light rail.

Kanata will probably not be serviced by Light Rail until 2025.

Why not build half the space on the Shenkman property on Innes, 10 minutes to downtown and keep the other half million square feet in our downtown? That will maintain keeping CFB Orléans intact. We love having the military families in our community.

Remember, saving 350 million on a building is probably overshadowed 10 times by the cost of making this city less sustainable. Sucking jobs out of the downtown and away from Orléans will cost the East End and the downtown dearly. Imagine moving these jobs away from the new Light Rail Tunnel downtown to Kanata and 5,000 jobs away from Orléans. This is insanity!

Phil McNeely

MPP, Ottawa-Orléans

[Requin]

Sadly, this is too little, too late. However, as a DND employee and resident of Orleans, I am glad to see someone relatively high up in the political food chain speak up on behalf of the east end.

I remember the Innes location being talked about as a potential DND building several years ago. Would have been great for Orleans.

[Acajack]

Good points by the people from Orleans. That part of the region is really getting the short end of the stick it seems and seems doomed to remain a "bedroom" for a long, long time.

RCMP in Barrhaven, DND on the fringes of Kanata, and lots of stuff in Gatineau. But nothing for Orleans, and to add insult to injury RCMP and DND were central Ottawa employers that were particularly heavy on Orleans residents. Now they are moving them even further away.

[BlackRedGold]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Good points by the people from Orleans. That part of the region is really getting the short end of the stick it seems and seems doomed to remain a "bedroom" for a long, long time.

RCMP in Barrhaven, DND on the fringes of Kanata, and lots of stuff in Gatineau. But nothing for Orleans, and to add insult to injury RCMP and DND were central Ottawa employers that were particularly heavy on Orleans residents. Now they are moving them even further away.

Well, Gatineau gets them for purely political reasons while the western burbs are merely the government taking advantage of buildings vacated by the tech bust. Since it is tax dollars paying for the office space, getting value for the money is important.

I find it ironic that McNeely brings up sustainability but advocates building on the worst big box mess of a road in the city.

[Uhuniau]

Kanata will have light rail by 2025?

Wow. That means it'll have light rail before Ottawa does.

Where will it run to? Bells Corners?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by BlackRedGold

Well, Gatineau gets them for purely political reasons .

Actually, Gatineau mainly gets them because it has the cheapest centrally-located land in the entire capital region.

[kilroy]

This is part of a memo sent around DND last Friday evening. It is edited and of course, I cannot provide a link due to the format it was sent.

"Today’s announcement that DND/CF will be the tenant at Nortel’s Carling Avenue Campus in Ottawa is a major step forward in strengthening the Defence Team in the National Capital Region (NCR).

Starting in 2011 planning will begin to move members of the Defence Team working in the NCR to the campus over a five to seven year period. The announcement, made by Public Works and Government Services Canada, provides us with the opportunity to address a number of organizational issues we have faced over the years and dramatically reduce the number of DND/CF locations in the NCR from 48 to just seven.

A modern, state-of-the-art facility, the campus includes 360 acres of green space, wetlands, and bicycle paths. Consolidation of our footprint in this campus approach will reduce our operational and accommodation costs, strengthen our departmental security and help us to work more effectively and efficiently together.

The move will co-locate a majority of the thousands of Defence Team members within the NCR. Some use may continue to be made of the Major-General George R. Pearkes Building and Star Top will continue for the time being to serve as the operational command building. Other facilities, such as the Louis St. Laurent Building, a new building at 455 Blvd de la Carrière, parts of the National Printing Bureau, and the Hôtel de Ville building in Gatineau will continue to accommodate many members of the organization.

Other buildings currently occupied by DND will be vacated over time and employees now working in those locations will either move into one of the above-mentioned buildings or to the campus."

Mods, feel free to delete this if deemed inappropriate.

[Cre47]

The building I am will be hit hard with all this moving. It has six floors occupied by DND out of the 22. Two of them are already completely empty (one of them was gutted by flooding multiple times this summer) and another is occupied by probably 10 people or so. The other three floors are probably one-half to three-quarters full.

The Armed Forces Recruitment Center will likely stay downtown.

I'm sure Place Vanier might have quite a bit of vacant space because of the DND departure. But I'm sure it will fill quite quickly, the same might not be said at my building. The top floor has been sit empty for years.