Proposed Downtown Redevelopment Plan

[Pimpmasterdac]

Only 3 Corridors that would be feasible for a freeway to downtown London.

One would be the Thames Valley Corridor, having Highbury swing west at the Thames and follow the river to downtown as per London's oringinal freeway plans. Impossible now, considering all the environmental assessments reuqired and the popularity of paving the Thames.

Second would be using exisiting rail corridors. Either expropriating the CP rail line and running an expressway alow the ROW or some type of an elevated freeway over the CP rail line. Either option would cost a lot and would need to get rail companies onside.

Third would be converting Wellington to a grand boulevard that would be similar to a freeway. Back in the mid-1980's London had a plan to make Wellington a 6 lane road with median & turn lanes from the 401 to Horton. The median part was completed north of the Thames to Horton. Between Baseline & south of the Thames is the issue since it would require major expropriation and piss off people.

I'd be fine with any options but doubt the city will do SFA about it.

[MolsonExport]

I'd much rather see light rail than a freeway downtown. North america's experience with urban freeways over the past 50 years has been nothing short of disastrous.

[Wharn]

I'm a little concerned about the impact of flooding on some of this proposed development. The beach, urban lake and all of the new buildings are very close to the water. Given how high the Thames rises during the spring thaw, I could easily see the beach being swept away, and the buildings could possibly incur some flood damage. Those aspects will need closer scrutiny. But otherwise, fantastic.

Originally Posted by manny_santos

There will never be a freeway from the 401 to Central London. The closest we will ever get is converting an existing arterial road to an expressway. The issue would be finding a corridor that has capacity for 6-8 lanes plus medians. Aside from maybe Oxford Street between Richmond and Adelaide, most existing corridors connecting the central city with the suburbs would require demolitions. That won't fly.

You'd need some demolition along that stretch of Oxford, guaranteed. Not a chance in hell that could be turned into an at-grade expressway. This city had its chance to build useful freeways and it blew it; last resort is the elusive ring road.

Originally Posted by Pimpmasterdac

Third would be converting Wellington to a grand boulevard that would be similar to a freeway. Back in the mid-1980's London had a plan to make Wellington a 6 lane road with median & turn lanes from the 401 to Horton. The median part was completed north of the Thames to Horton. Between Baseline & south of the Thames is the issue since it would require major expropriation and piss off people.

I like the Grand Boulevard idea. It would be expensive to implement but since Wellington Road already looks sprawly and shitty, we really have nothing to lose from a little expropriation and expansion. Something is needed to improve traffic movement into and out of the core, for both motorists and transit users (Ever tried riding the 13 Wellington from Masonville to White Oaks? It sucks. I can get across the same distance in Toronto on the 25 Don Mills in about 20% less time).

[Snark]

Originally Posted by Wharn

I'm a little concerned about the impact of flooding on some of this proposed development. The beach, urban lake and all of the new buildings are very close to the water. Given how high the Thames rises during the spring thaw, I could easily see the beach being swept away, and the buildings could possibly incur some flood damage. Those aspects will need closer scrutiny. But otherwise, fantastic.

The buildings are shown above the floodplain - they are fine. The remainder however is in the high, 100 year floodplain and the illustration shows extensive filling of that. The renderings really don't illustrate the grade changes between Ridout Street and the river, which is a good 15-25 metres. So, in reality, more fill would be needed than even shown.

In either case, the L/UTVCA isn't likley going to allow it

[haljackey]

Making Wellington a 6-lane road from the 401 to the core is a good comprimise. A lot of the work has already been done (can easily be 6-laned from 401 to Baseline and Thames River to Horton).
-In addition, the bridge over the Thames River is approaching the end of it's design life, or at least to my knowledge. Building a new, wider bridge like the Render shows can be done.

Just two major issues. The route between Baseline and the river is narrow and has two sharpish curves. Additional right of way would need to be purchased and those curves straightened out. The CN underpass is tight as well and only has 4 lanes. If Wellington is to continue 6-laned past Horton this needs to be expanded/rebuilt and it will be expensive.

Having an attractive downtown gateway is a must for residents, businesses and tourists.

[ssiguy]

There are some things that London could do right away that would make the downtown more inviting and lively.
The one that sticks out is to improve and widen the sidewalks. Go t Talbot/King area where there are a lot of good restaurants but no outdoor cafes because the sidewalks are far to thin and in poor repair. They should take a lane out of King from the Thames to Clarence so restaurants and outdoor cafes and shopping can thrive.
Also London could do another thing to help get these developments off the ground which only requires a signature from the mayor................put a moratorium on any residential buildings over 3 stories that are not north of Horton, South of Oxford, west of Old East area and east of the fork.
London has, for it's size, an amasing number of highrise apt/condos and yet are huge number are not downtown. Imagine what London's downtown would be like if even half of all the apt highrises in Westown/Cherryhill areas were in the inner city. A simple change in zoning and some form of architectural standing {ie no concrete commie blocks} and London's downtown would flourish.
The first example would take very little extra money if it is done in conjuction with ongoing road/street repair and the second doesn't require a nickel.

[Snark]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Also London could do another thing to help get these developments off the ground which only requires a signature from the mayor................put a moratorium on any residential buildings over 3 stories that are not north of Horton, South of Oxford, west of Old East area and east of the fork.

Uh, no. It requires a lot more than that.

Your idea is laudable, but implementing would be difficult and complex - if possible at all.

[Pimpmasterdac]

Originally Posted by Wharn

I like the Grand Boulevard idea. It would be expensive to implement but since Wellington Road already looks sprawly and shitty, we really have nothing to lose from a little expropriation and expansion. Something is needed to improve traffic movement into and out of the core, for both motorists and transit users (Ever tried riding the 13 Wellington from Masonville to White Oaks? It sucks. I can get across the same distance in Toronto on the 25 Don Mills in about 20% less time).

The slow buses could be solved tomorrow for Wellington. Have express routes that stop only at major intersections/places of interest. White Oaks, Vic Hospital, Horton, Queen & Richmond, Oxford, UWO, Maisonville. Rinse and Repeat of other routes. Why the LTC sits with its thump up its ass, and talks of adding milk bus runs to Lambeth, yet neglecting over capacity routes that could have express buses is idiotic. As bad a Via Fail!

I'm around Vic hospital luckily my whole time at UWO I only had to take the 13 Wellington to UWO once. But holy hell 45+ minutes to get to a place that I can drive to in 15?! Doesn't help around UWO and downtown the streets are less had 100 metres away with students getting on.off every stop, Express route cuts that out and gets people around London quickly

Originally Posted by haljackey

Making Wellington a 6-lane road from the 401 to the core is a good comprimise. A lot of the work has already been done (can easily be 6-laned from 401 to Baseline and Thames River to Horton).
-In addition, the bridge over the Thames River is approaching the end of it's design life, or at least to my knowledge. Building a new, wider bridge like the Render shows can be done.

Just two major issues. The route between Baseline and the river is narrow and has two sharpish curves. Additional right of way would need to be purchased and those curves straightened out. The CN underpass is tight as well and only has 4 lanes. If Wellington is to continue 6-laned past Horton this needs to be expanded/rebuilt and it will be expensive.

The most frustrating thing is that converting Wellington to 6 -lane grand boulevard isn't some abstract idea, that's a what if. It's something the city actually had design plans for that took into account ROW requirements and expropriation needs. This was in the late 1980's too soo its not some ancient plan. I didn't know about it myself until I saw the plans at UWO library, that give a layout from Horton to Baseline.

The widening was apart of a grand plan to widen Wellington, extend Colbourne across the Thames and meet Wellington at the sharp curve. Colbourne would be built to hand traffic while Wellington Thames bridge was re-built.

Ultimately the city has these grand visions of how London should/ought to be, yet doesn't have the balls to implement them if any special interest or anyone complains. Hopefully it does something useful for a change!

[Symz]

I'm not from London, I've only visited a few times and I really liked the city alot. It's bigger and to me feels more metropolitan than Windsor.

It's interesting though because the few people I know who have lived in London they always say the same thing, that driving around in London sucks. I didn't feel that it was that bad when I visited a few times, but then again that's over the course of the odd weekend going there and not during the mid week work traffic.

It's really that bad?

As for redevelopment that's exciting. I think you guys have a good thing going there so far with the JLC and the market, you have a downtown train station not too far away, Victoria Park, the Thames and you're seeing new residential develpment. This new plan is ambitious.

[MolsonExport]

^driving around London consists of three options:
1) diverting way to the North and going cross-town, then down again (e.g., Medway/Sunningdale)
2) diverting way to the South, and going cross-town, then up again (e.g., 401)
3) an endless series of traffic lights and extremely dreary suburban landscape (e.g., Wharncliffe, Oxfart, Wonderbread, unWellington), usually can't be avoided also for parts of options 1 and 2.

Minimum half an hour (often, much more), to get across a medium-sized urban area.

[FazDeH]

I REALLY Liked a lot of what I saw in these "visions" for downtown. granted I'm glad that they're just an archetype for potential future development, because lets face it, some of the rendered buildings were hideous. ie the JLC parking lot building, or IMO the green blob that would be the new city hall.
I WAS glad to see the pedestrian mall idea for Dundas, the idea of larger apartment buildings on Richmond near Kent(I thought they looked amazing and would love to see there) as well as the idea of significantly increasing the density near the fork of the Thames?
I think Joe is on the right track. Lets not forget the future development in the LPH area east of Highbury either! With all of that as well? We could FINALLY see a push for infill and more inner city development rather than the suburban norm that has strangled London since the 80s.
Also, if the green beast at the fork is to be the new city hall, what was the brown brick and glass beauty at the corner of queens and ridout? Looks like a civic building to me...

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Minimum half an hour (often, much more), to get across a medium-sized urban area.

Given the attitude towards road development on council, it won't get better anytime soon. There was a huge production over cutting down a few trees at the end of Windermere Road to make way for a pedestrian link to Gainsborough. If you brought in a proposal for a roadway some people may have had a heart attack. (For the record, as an ex-Torontonian, I don't see anything particularly special about that forest anyways)

[Stevo26]

Originally Posted by Wharn

Given the attitude towards road development on council, it won't get better anytime soon. There was a huge production over cutting down a few trees at the end of Windermere Road to make way for a pedestrian link to Gainsborough. If you brought in a proposal for a roadway some people may have had a heart attack. (For the record, as an ex-Torontonian, I don't see anything particularly special about that forest anyways)

What I don't get is, why the fuss over a few trees? The 'Forest City' moniker London has is really somewhat of a misnomer, and very misleading, since the city really doesn't have that much forest cover anymore except in a few small areas.

The way I see it, the big problem with a lot of special interest groups (and the people in them) is that they don't think clearly about the premises they espouse, or the logic of same. Much of what they clamour for is based on knee-jerk reactions or pure emotion. For such people, the loss of a few trees might as well be the end of the world.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Stevo26

What I don't get is, why the fuss over a few trees? The 'Forest City' moniker London has is really somewhat of a misnomer, and very misleading, since the city really doesn't have that much forest cover anymore except in a few small areas.

The way I see it, the big problem with a lot of special interest groups (and the people in them) is that they don't think clearly about the premises they espouse, or the logic of same. Much of what they clamour for is based on knee-jerk reactions or pure emotion. For such people, the loss of a few trees might as well be the end of the world.

It's also the culture of self-entitlement that we have to the exclusion of the needs of the many. As far as I'm concerned, the environmental benefits of lowering traffic congestion on various east-west roads by diverting traffic outweigh the environmental benefits of a few trees. Of course, more trees can be planted elsewhere.

I also think a Gainsborough-Winderemere link is much more feasible than a Sarnia-Huron link.

[ssiguy]

I don't see a rezoning of allowed higt restriction would be neither expensive nor difficult?

[Symz]

So I read today you guys will soon be taxed for this plan.

[bolognium]

I really fucking hate reading the LFP comments section. You'd think the only people that live in London are 60 year-olds that are certain downtown's glory days are behind us and never coming back. Yeah, the Simpson's display window is gone and we have some panhandlers, get over it you damn wet blankets. Have some vision for Christ's sake. Is $2.50 a month really that steep of a price for downtown revitalization and new development?

I really hope city council sticks to their guns and doesn't get too discouraged by this onslaught of negative opinions.

[Symz]

Originally Posted by bolognium

I really fucking hate reading the LFP comments section. You'd think the only people that live in London are 60 year-olds that are certain downtown's glory days are behind us and never coming back. Yeah, the Simpson's display window is gone and we have some panhandlers, get over it you damn wet blankets. Have some vision for Christ's sake. Is $2.50 a month really that steep of a price for downtown revitalization and new development?

I really hope city council sticks to their guns and doesn't get too discouraged by this onslaught of negative opinions.

It's the same in Windsor. Projects for the most part never come to fruition and are mostly pipe dreams. For the longest time it felt the city was stuck in time, stuck in one mode until our current mayor came along. Here's the catch, the mayor that seems to have gotten the ball rolling is also the most controversial mayor in recent time, people either love him or hate him. I personally look forward to vision and future developments and hope you guys in London have some success in seeing this grand plan put through.

[bolognium]

I just find it really frustrating that the people who complain about our downtown being an unwelcoming dump are the same people that immediately shoot down any plans for revitalization.

While the current proposal may be a little over-the-top it certainly has many appealing aspects:

- Better connections between the South of Horton neighbourhood and downtown by relinking closed streets

- Large scale development along the Thames (especially Old Vic and Hydro Lands)

- Plugging surface lots with buildings to create streetwalls on currently pedestrian-unfriendly streets

- Stronger institutional presence downtown

So yeah, more projects that focus on increasing downtown's population. The JLC and Market have been decent successes, but the main reason downtown still isn't flourishing is the lack of a large core population. I'm confident that most of these new projects will have a more positive impact than the Market ever did. Although, I do always sleep easy knowing that should I ever need scented candles at 4pm the market is only a 2 minute walk away.

We'll be that much closer to this "critical mass" I've heard so much about. Maybe I'll actually see a grocery store down here within my lifetime.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by bolognium

I really fucking hate reading the LFP comments section. You'd think the only people that live in London are 60 year-olds that are certain downtown's glory days are behind us and never coming back.

who do you think reads the LFP? 60 year-olds that are certain downtown's glory days are behind us and never coming back.