265 Catherine St [Former Greyhound terminal] | 110/117/127m | 32/34/36f | Site Prep

[Davis137]

Hopefully they get approval for something like this...

[Mille Sabords]

Originally Posted by McC

what's transit friendly about the existing location served by one bus route with inconsistent service levels and shorter hours of operation than the bus station has? the Via station is much easier to get to from all around the City, and as I said above, is only about 1.5 km further from the Rideau Centre than the current bus station is.

From where the current bus station is located, people can WALK into downtown. Even better than being transit friendly. Moving the bus terminal to the Via station is the dumbest thing we could do. It serves no functional purpose, otherwise the market would've looked after its intermodal needs long ago. It is a misplaced planning fantasy that will end up annoying bus users and really inconveniencing them. I'm strongly opposed to moving Greyhound out of downtown.

[Aylmer]

You know the old EB Eddy Building just across from the Chaudière buildings? I've always thought that would be a great station for commuter rail. Why not buses too?

There's a whole lot - unused, I think - which could house a terminal for the buses, and it would give new life to an abandoned piece of regional heritage. And just a skip and a hop from Downtown Ottawa and right in Downtown Hull.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Mille Sabords

From where the current bus station is located, people can WALK into downtown. Even better than being transit friendly. Moving the bus terminal to the Via station is the dumbest thing we could do. It serves no functional purpose, otherwise the market would've looked after its intermodal needs long ago. It is a misplaced planning fantasy that will end up annoying bus users and really inconveniencing them. I'm strongly opposed to moving Greyhound out of downtown.

Good. I was beginning to think I was the only one who thought this to be a foolish venture.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

Good. I was beginning to think I was the only one who thought this to be a foolish venture.

I completely agree. I love the plan for the site, but only if the terminal can be located elsewhere downtown. I do think there is probably a better spot for it than the current location, which is ripe for revitalization. Aylmer's idea is definitely an intriguing one.

[Mille Sabords]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

You know the old EB Eddy Building just across from the Chaudière buildings? I've always thought that would be a great station for commuter rail. Why not buses too?

There's a whole lot - unused, I think - which could house a terminal for the buses, and it would give new life to an abandoned piece of regional heritage. And just a skip and a hop from Downtown Ottawa and right in Downtown Hull.

Never thought of that but you've got something there.

[Aylmer]

I'm glad you like it!

I spent many a' math class thinking up what that entire area - From Portage Bridge to Chaudière and the Chaudière Islands could be like.

[reidjr]

I am confused is the owner of the bus station going a head with this or is this a back up plan in case greyhound moves.

[Kitchissippi]

Using the Nicholas Hostel as an arbitrary destination, The Catherine street station is 2.5 kms on foot (using google maps), the VIA station is 3.6 kms, and the Chaudière location is 3.3 kms. Not much of an advantage putting it on the Quebec side, as the buses would have to contend with delays with bridge traffic and OC Transpo's #8 has dismal frequency off-peak. The train station presently has transit connections going every direction at 5 to 10 minute frequencies, plus future LRT.

The majority of people using Greyhound are not tourists, they are either residents or VFRs (visiting friends and relatives) and staging a drop off/pick up point downtown will just add traffic chaos. This is why dreaming of returning trains to Union Station is such an impractical pipe dream. Ever see the line of taxis outside the VIA station?

[spotlight]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Using the Nicholas Hostel as an arbitrary destination, The Catherine street station is 2.5 kms on foot (using google maps), the VIA station is 3.6 kms, and the Chaudière location is 3.3 kms. Not much of an advantage putting it on the Quebec side, as the buses would have to contend with delays with bridge traffic and OC Transpo's #8 has dismal frequency off-peak. The train station presently has transit connections going every direction at 5 to 10 minute frequencies, plus future LRT.

The majority of people using Greyhound are not tourists, they are either residents or VFRs (visiting friends and relatives) and staging a drop off/pick up point downtown will just add traffic chaos. This is why dreaming of returning trains to Union Station is such an impractical pipe dream. Ever see the line of taxis outside the VIA station?

so every major city in the world can do it except for Ottawa.. i see the logic

transit belongs downtown: bus station, train station,

HOWEVER they must have mass transit/public transit access/ connections built in to the site for example the train station at union with a subway or light rail station combined to it (or in our present case good bus transit connections)..... same for a downtown bus location.

but they have to be downtown.. again every city has them downtown and it works for them (no one mentions pick up or drop off as issues in toronto or NYC or Paris or Berlin....why is Ottawa any different.. we have to stop thinking like this it's so frustrating to have a mentality of no we can't do this or no it won't work here.

when will we ever be a city ??????????

[reidjr]

Originally Posted by spotlight

so every major city in the world can do it except for Ottawa.. i see the logic

transit belongs downtown: bus station, train station,

HOWEVER they must have mass transit/public transit access/ connections built in to the site for example the train station at union with a subway or light rail station combined to it (or in our present case good bus transit connections)..... same for a downtown bus location.

but they have to be downtown.. again every city has them downtown and it works for them (no one mentions pick up or drop off as issues in toronto or NYC or Paris or Berlin....why is Ottawa any different.. we have to stop thinking like this it's so frustrating to have a mentality of no we can't do this or no it won't work here.

when will we ever be a city ??????????

Its very simple its the mind set by alot in this city we can't have anything grand or great we can't be at the cutting edge in short we can't be a great city.Just look at the oseg bid not one major city in canada or the states would say na we rather have a giant park vs a state of the art entertainment complex.

[Mille Sabords]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Using the Nicholas Hostel as an arbitrary destination, The Catherine street station is 2.5 kms on foot (using google maps), the VIA station is 3.6 kms, and the Chaudière location is 3.3 kms. Not much of an advantage putting it on the Quebec side, as the buses would have to contend with delays with bridge traffic and OC Transpo's #8 has dismal frequency off-peak. The train station presently has transit connections going every direction at 5 to 10 minute frequencies, plus future LRT.

The majority of people using Greyhound are not tourists, they are either residents or VFRs (visiting friends and relatives) and staging a drop off/pick up point downtown will just add traffic chaos. This is why dreaming of returning trains to Union Station is such an impractical pipe dream. Ever see the line of taxis outside the VIA station?

That's the logic that brought us the Via station where it is today: out of the way and in the boonies. Cars, cars, cars, dictated that a downtown train station could no longer "work". I'm sorry, f**k that. You want a downtown station with downtown convenience, you make it work. There are buses. There are taxis. There are ways to make things work. You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Moving the station to Tremblay was a huge mistake. Adding to the mistake by exiling the bus station would be moronic and asinine. The location of Tremblay Rd is only now starting to have some semblance of centrality given all the sprawl that's taken place in the last 4 decades, but it's still a no-man's-land and it's inconveniently out of the way. It's not a pedestrian environment. It's not where it should be. Come on!! This shouldn't be so hard to understand. Whereas, if Union Station had stayed in place, it would now be sitting above a soon-to-be-opened subway station.

Speaking of the Youth Hostel, the perfect location for the Greyhound terminal would've been the site of the Desmarais Building (Laurier & Waller), but that's gone now. In fact, that site could've been an intermodal station, with rail brought back in a tunnel under the Nicholas Expressway and buses on the surface (one can dream).

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Mille Sabords

That's the logic that brought us the Via station where it is today: out of the way and in the boonies. Cars, cars, cars, dictated that a downtown train station could no longer "work". I'm sorry, f**k that. You want a downtown station with downtown convenience, you make it work. There are buses. There are taxis. There are ways to make things work. You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Moving the station to Tremblay was a huge mistake. Adding to the mistake by exiling the bus station would be moronic and asinine. The location of Tremblay Rd is only now starting to have some semblance of centrality given all the sprawl that's taken place in the last 4 decades, but it's still a no-man's-land and it's inconveniently out of the way. It's not a pedestrian environment. It's not where it should be. Come on!! This shouldn't be so hard to understand. Whereas, if Union Station had stayed in place, it would now be sitting above a soon-to-be-opened subway station.

Speaking of the Youth Hostel, the perfect location for the Greyhound terminal would've been the site of the Desmarais Building (Laurier & Waller), but that's gone now. In fact, that site could've been an intermodal station, with rail brought back in a tunnel under the Nicholas Expressway and buses on the surface (one can dream).

All incredibly valid points, and just to add...

If the Bayview LRT/Bus Station is going to be so huge and a central transit hub, why not put the new terminal there? It's got the space. Hell, if you widened the existing O-Train tracks, you could EASILY redirect trains there too.

[S-Man]

While I definitely want this development go through, for many reasons, I'd like the bus station to stay close in. There's nothing like being dropped off in an unfamiliar city and not being able to find your way to hotels, etc, without taking another form of transit to get there. The bus station on Catherine puts it within walking range of so much. That said, to have a development like this on Catherine, coupled with those on Gladstone, would really bring the south end of Centretown out of the 1970's.

[AuxTown]

Originally Posted by S-Man

While I definitely want this development go through, for many reasons, I'd like the bus station to stay close in. There's nothing like being dropped off in an unfamiliar city and not being able to find your way to hotels, etc, without taking another form of transit to get there. The bus station on Catherine puts it within walking range of so much. That said, to have a development like this on Catherine, coupled with those on Gladstone, would really bring the south end of Centretown out of the 1970's.

Show up with a suitcase of any significant size in Nov-March and tell me how practical it is to walk anywhere useful in Ottawa? I think having a central bus station is important, but unfortunately, we don't have a bus station that's central for anyone other than a few Glebe and Southern-Centretown residents. I won't lose any sleep over this thing being moved, especially if we get a vibrant urban development in its place.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by Mille Sabords

That's the logic that brought us the Via station where it is today: out of the way and in the boonies. Cars, cars, cars, dictated that a downtown train station could no longer "work". I'm sorry, f**k that. You want a downtown station with downtown convenience, you make it work. There are buses. There are taxis. There are ways to make things work. You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Moving the station to Tremblay was a huge mistake. Adding to the mistake by exiling the bus station would be moronic and asinine.

Ironically, I'd say that the coach terminal itself has already been exiled out of downtown. Think about it. It's not downtown and it certainly wasn't "downtown" in any reasonable sense of the word at the time it was put there. It was put there for the convenience of coach operations and passengers accessing the terminal by cars, all of them delivered courtesy of the relatively new Queensway.

Moreover, there once had been a station not too far away from the current bus station - a rail station at Elgin. It was subsequently closed when the downtown station opened up. Just as that location was suboptimal a century ago, it remains so today. If for some reason we did not already have a coach terminal anywhere, we would not consider a location anywhere on Catherine as an appropriate location for one.

The location of Tremblay Rd is only now starting to have some semblance of centrality given all the sprawl that's taken place in the last 4 decades, but it's still a no-man's-land and it's inconveniently out of the way. It's not a pedestrian environment. It's not where it should be. Come on!! This shouldn't be so hard to understand. Whereas, if Union Station had stayed in place, it would now be sitting above a soon-to-be-opened subway station.

All very true. But we are dealing with world-of-the-second-best here. So long as our main rail station is out of downtown in a location that is car-convenient and relatively transit-convenient, there is some benefit to putting the coach terminal in the same place.

Speaking of the Youth Hostel, the perfect location for the Greyhound terminal would've been the site of the Desmarais Building (Laurier & Waller), but that's gone now. In fact, that site could've been an intermodal station, with rail brought back in a tunnel under the Nicholas Expressway and buses on the surface (one can dream).

Indeed.

A site that does still exist is Lebreton "Flats", specifically in the area around Wellington - Commissioner - Albert at the foot of the escarpment (those with a burning hate of useless expanses of grass - you know who you are - could argue for it to be put into the "Garden of the Provinces and Territories" on Wellington near the Archives). Even today, it would not be overly difficult to return tracks to this location at a terminal-style railway station (with provision for future tunnelling eastwards) from the O-Train corridor, with the tracks running parallel with the LRT tracks. Compared to returning tracks to the original location, this location would be a lot easier. A coach terminal could be built on the upper levels, so it would be roughly level with Bronson between Albert and Slater (i.e. we take advantage of the topography to bring the tracks in below and still have a presentable frontage up top). The location would also be served with rapid transit (which would require reconsidering the location of the Lebreton and/or Downtown West stations) and would be relatively accessible from Quebec.

[Mille Sabords]

Originally Posted by Dado

Ironically, I'd say that the coach terminal itself has already been exiled out of downtown. Think about it. It's not downtown and it certainly wasn't "downtown" in any reasonable sense of the word at the time it was put there. It was put there for the convenience of coach operations and passengers accessing the terminal by cars, all of them delivered courtesy of the relatively new Queensway.

Not so. The existing Greyhound terminal IS downtown. It is conveniently close to the highway for buses, yes, but it is conveniently walkable from Bank Street (a block and steps) and it is part of a fabric of streets and blocks that naturally takes you into the city on foot. Maybe at the time it was put there, everyone might not have seen it as "purely downtown", but today I'd venture to say only a slim minority of people would not describe this location as downtown.

Originally Posted by Dado

Moreover, there once had been a station not too far away from the current bus station - a rail station at Elgin. It was subsequently closed when the downtown station opened up. Just as that location was suboptimal a century ago, it remains so today. If for some reason we did not already have a coach terminal anywhere, we would not consider a location anywhere on Catherine as an appropriate location for one.

That's a non-argument. Comparing the locational attribute of Catherine Street a century ago to its locational attribute today is like comparing Kanata to the moon. Back then it was a pain to get to Kanata, too (March Township) but a day on horseback would get you there, while you could not, indeed, go to the moon. Today, you can go to the moon, but it's not a pedestrian-friendly experience.

Originally Posted by Dado

All very true. But we are dealing with world-of-the-second-best here. So long as our main rail station is out of downtown in a location that is car-convenient and relatively transit-convenient, there is some benefit to putting the coach terminal in the same place.

That's about as stunning a rationale as I've ever seen. It's like, "oh well, we screwed up once, why don't we just screw up all the way and to hell with people and their wish for convenience." There is NO benefit in mixing the passenger rail and coach operations. They compete with one another, they basically serve the same corridors, and nobody transfers from one to the other. Nobody. There is no reason to combine the two.

Originally Posted by Dado

A site that does still exist is Lebreton "Flats", specifically in the area around Wellington - Commissioner - Albert at the foot of the escarpment (those with a burning hate of useless expanses of grass - you know who you are - could argue for it to be put into the "Garden of the Provinces and Territories" on Wellington near the Archives). Even today, it would not be overly difficult to return tracks to this location at a terminal-style railway station (with provision for future tunnelling eastwards) from the O-Train corridor, with the tracks running parallel with the LRT tracks. Compared to returning tracks to the original location, this location would be a lot easier. A coach terminal could be built on the upper levels, so it would be roughly level with Bronson between Albert and Slater (i.e. we take advantage of the topography to bring the tracks in below and still have a presentable frontage up top). The location would also be served with rapid transit (which would require reconsidering the location of the Lebreton and/or Downtown West stations) and would be relatively accessible from Quebec.

Wellington-Commissioner-Albert would be slightly more out-of-the-way than Catherine but still sufficiently downtown, but it would still be a sub-standard location. Really, when picking a location for a major intercity transportation facility, the selection process shouldn't be "let's see what's vacant" (or even less, "let's see who'll let us bunk with them". It should be, "where do people need to be upon arrival"?, and then go and get that land and do it there. Or close enough to "there" to be locationally valid.

[MountainView]

Originally Posted by Mille Sabords

Not so. The existing Greyhound terminal IS downtown. It is conveniently close to the highway for buses, yes, but it is conveniently walkable from Bank Street (a block and steps) and it is part of a fabric of streets and blocks that naturally takes you into the city on foot. Maybe at the time it was put there, everyone might not have seen it as "purely downtown", but today I'd venture to say only a slim minority of people would not describe this location as downtown.




That's a non-argument. Comparing the locational attribute of Catherine Street a century ago to its locational attribute today is like comparing Kanata to the moon. Back then it was a pain to get to Kanata, too (March Township) but a day on horseback would get you there, while you could not, indeed, go to the moon. Today, you can go to the moon, but it's not a pedestrian-friendly experience.



That's about as stunning a rationale as I've ever seen. It's like, "oh well, we screwed up once, why don't we just screw up all the way and to hell with people and their wish for convenience." There is NO benefit in mixing the passenger rail and coach operations. They compete with one another, they basically serve the same corridors, and nobody transfers from one to the other. Nobody. There is no reason to combine the two.



Wellington-Commissioner-Albert would be slightly more out-of-the-way than Catherine but still sufficiently downtown, but it would still be a sub-standard location. Really, when picking a location for a major intercity transportation facility, the selection process shouldn't be "let's see what's vacant" (or even less, "let's see who'll let us bunk with them". It should be, "where do people need to be upon arrival"?, and then go and get that land and do it there. Or close enough to "there" to be locationally valid.

There is no doubt that the current location needs to be renovated because it is out of date. Where do you propose the new station to be built downtown (if there is a new one) ? Or would you rather just see the station be renovated and stay where it is today?

I agree that VIA and Coach buses would compete against each other but the idea of them being both together and linked directly to BRT and future LRT is a very positive aspect. Plus... like mentioned earlier, who is going to walk to their hotel on Albert or Slater when it is -20 outside in January?

[waterloowarrior]

Originally Posted by spotlight

so every major city in the world can do it except for Ottawa.. i see the logic

transit belongs downtown: bus station, train station,

HOWEVER they must have mass transit/public transit access/ connections built in to the site for example the train station at union with a subway or light rail station combined to it (or in our present case good bus transit connections)..... same for a downtown bus location.

but they have to be downtown.. again every city has them downtown and it works for them (no one mentions pick up or drop off as issues in toronto or NYC or Paris or Berlin....why is Ottawa any different.. we have to stop thinking like this it's so frustrating to have a mentality of no we can't do this or no it won't work here.

when will we ever be a city ??????????

Berlin's bus station isn't downtown, neither is Paris's. Haven't been to either but they seem to be in similar types of locations 8-10km from the city centre, near highway interchanges as well as having metro service.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

Berlin's bus station isn't downtown, neither is Paris'

New York's, Montreal's, and Toronto's are.