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  #1201  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2011, 5:35 AM
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[QUOTE=freeweed;5138042]One thing I see come up every year here (usually late winter-early spring) is the "how much does the sun matter" discussion. Generally we have the folks from the prairies who say "sure it's colder, but the sun is awesome" vs folks from BC (and elsewhere) who say "I'd rather have the cloudy warmth than sunny cold". Today gave me a bit of insight as to maybe why there's such a disagreement between prairie types and coastal types:

Apparently there is a new study regarding wind chill and the effects of sun on the reality and perception of warmth. I didn't catch the whole report and I'm trying to find the study but the jist is that -20 wind chill in Winnipeg in a sunny day is warmer than -20 on a cloudy day on the east coast.

If anyone has the report please post the link.
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  #1202  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2011, 5:55 AM
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At the same temperature, a sunny will obviously feels warmer than the cloudy day no question about it.

However, we rarely go below -15C while cloudy.
     
     
  #1203  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2011, 6:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Nicko999 View Post
Holy exaggeration!

When it's +7 outside, you can expect rivers on streets from snow melting.
Might want to read the whole post next time, champ. It WAS +7 today (+9 in some parts) and we DIDN'T have rivers on the streets. At least not compared to a nice sunny -1 day. There was so much cloud that the ground never really warmed up at all.

That was kinda the entire point of my post. In the past week we've had more melting on the colder but sunnier days compared to a day like today - warm to the skin, but no major melting. And this is with the sun fairly low at that (give it 4-6 more weeks and the sun's effect is staggering).

I wonder how much of this is due to humidity and elevation as well. Drier, thinner air doesn't transfer heat as well as otherwise.
     
     
  #1204  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2011, 7:11 AM
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Originally Posted by freeweed View Post
Might want to read the whole post next time, champ. It WAS +7 today (+9 in some parts) and we DIDN'T have rivers on the streets. At least not compared to a nice sunny -1 day. There was so much cloud that the ground never really warmed up at all.

That was kinda the entire point of my post. In the past week we've had more melting on the colder but sunnier days compared to a day like today - warm to the skin, but no major melting. And this is with the sun fairly low at that (give it 4-6 more weeks and the sun's effect is staggering).

I wonder how much of this is due to humidity and elevation as well. Drier, thinner air doesn't transfer heat as well as otherwise.
Drier air=slower melting?

Those pictures were taken on a day where the temperature peaked at 3.7C only. It was cloudy!





     
     
  #1205  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2011, 7:18 AM
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-20C with a wind chill of -25C and sunny!

One of the coldest day I've ever felt... even the salt water was frozen.
     
     
  #1206  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2011, 7:21 AM
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Originally Posted by freeweed View Post
Might want to read the whole post next time, champ. It WAS +7 today (+9 in some parts) and we DIDN'T have rivers on the streets. At least not compared to a nice sunny -1 day. There was so much cloud that the ground never really warmed up at all.

That was kinda the entire point of my post. In the past week we've had more melting on the colder but sunnier days compared to a day like today - warm to the skin, but no major melting. And this is with the sun fairly low at that (give it 4-6 more weeks and the sun's effect is staggering).

I wonder how much of this is due to humidity and elevation as well. Drier, thinner air doesn't transfer heat as well as otherwise.
Yep, I would say there is definitely some truth to this, hence shaded areas always retain snow cover far longer than those in direct sunshine. So I would bet you that in sunny areas the snow would indeed melt faster on a near 0 day than a 5 to 7 degree and cloudy day (especially if the air is dry), but the reverse would be true for areas cast in shadows for most or all of the day.

Also, a reason why snow usually melts very fast after it falls on the coast of BC is that our snowfalls are followed by moderate to heavy rains, and rain melts snow faster than both the situations listed above (this is because the penetrating rain drop is able to transfer heat throughout the snow pack unlike the sun which only warms the surface)
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  #1207  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2011, 7:30 AM
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speaking of snow melt Manitoba is in for an interesting spring melt were already preping for a nasty one 1.5metes - 2meters of snow on the ground in north dakota and south dakota regions of the red river vally theres allot of snow on the ground not to mention how wet the ground is already going to be nasty..
     
     
  #1208  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2011, 7:53 PM
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drier air would have more capacity to absorb melting snow...
     
     
  #1209  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2011, 8:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freeweed View Post
Might want to read the whole post next time, champ. It WAS +7 today (+9 in some parts) and we DIDN'T have rivers on the streets. At least not compared to a nice sunny -1 day. There was so much cloud that the ground never really warmed up at all.

That was kinda the entire point of my post. In the past week we've had more melting on the colder but sunnier days compared to a day like today - warm to the skin, but no major melting. And this is with the sun fairly low at that (give it 4-6 more weeks and the sun's effect is staggering).

I wonder how much of this is due to humidity and elevation as well. Drier, thinner air doesn't transfer heat as well as otherwise.
There aren't rivers of water everywhere, but the snow is disappearing at a good rate. The snow pile I had at the end of the driveway is almost gone, with no puddles of water around it. It's disappearing like dry ice.

Speaking of which, it's gorgeous in downtown Calgary today. sunny and +11C.
     
     
  #1210  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2011, 9:13 PM
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And full on sunshine. I expect a lot less snow when I get home tonight.
     
     
  #1211  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2011, 9:45 PM
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+4 and sunny blue skies here... getting mushy
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  #1212  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2011, 9:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko999 View Post
-20C with a wind chill of -25C and sunny!

One of the coldest day I've ever felt... even the salt water was frozen.
Really? It was that cold here in the Maritimes yesterday (less so today) and the harbours and bays are still ice free.

Hell itself couldn't freeze over Halifax.
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  #1213  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2011, 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Dmajackson View Post
Really? It was that cold here in the Maritimes yesterday (less so today) and the harbours and bays are still ice free.

Hell itself couldn't freeze over Halifax.
Salt water freezes at 0F (-17.7C) so on extremely cold days, even salt doesn't help.

The bays holds a huge quantity of water and it will probably take a lot more than just 1 or 2 days of brutal cold temperatures to partially freeze it.

That's why you rarely see the Great Lakes frozen, there is just too much water.
     
     
  #1214  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2011, 12:43 AM
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Only Lakes Ontario and Michigan don't completely freeze over, the others do sometimes. Lake Erie and Lake St. Clair are very shallow and thus can completely freeze over even though temperatures mostly hover around the freezing mark all winter.
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  #1215  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2011, 1:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post
Yep, I would say there is definitely some truth to this, hence shaded areas always retain snow cover far longer than those in direct sunshine. So I would bet you that in sunny areas the snow would indeed melt faster on a near 0 day than a 5 to 7 degree and cloudy day (especially if the air is dry), but the reverse would be true for areas cast in shadows for most or all of the day.

Also, a reason why snow usually melts very fast after it falls on the coast of BC is that our snowfalls are followed by moderate to heavy rains, and rain melts snow faster than both the situations listed above (this is because the penetrating rain drop is able to transfer heat throughout the snow pack unlike the sun which only warms the surface)
the ground here is alson not cold or frozen - i can only speak from what i know up north long before snow would fall the ground would freeze - there was no way you could dig in a garden at the end of october it was frozen and when it snowed the snow just stayed

down here i can go into the garden now and dig and plant some primulas
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  #1216  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2011, 1:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Nicko999 View Post
Salt water freezes at 0F (-17.7C) so on extremely cold days, even salt doesn't help.
This depends entirely on the concentration of salt in the water. Seawater isn't terribly salty, and freezes not far below 0. Heavily concentrated saltwater can remain liquid down to -20 or more. 0F is the freezing point of a specific salt/water mixture used in defining the scale.

Regardless, your point still stands - no amount of salt keeps water from freezing after a certain point. Growing up, we called that point "January".
     
     
  #1217  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2011, 1:24 AM
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Regardless, your point still stands - no amount of salt keeps water from freezing after a certain point. Growing up, we called that point "January".
You should send a copy of this post to City of Calgary Roads... they don't know this yet!
     
     
  #1218  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2011, 2:52 AM
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You should send a copy of this post to City of Calgary Roads... they don't know this yet!
In their defense, Calgary doesn't stay below -20 for more than a few days for the most part. The salt really speeds the melting once it warms up.
     
     
  #1219  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2011, 3:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Nicko999 View Post
Those trees are probably south facing and they are getting extra heat from that awful building in the back. That's why it is unusually early compared to other trees.

Same story with my shrub, south facing and had green leaves until December.
Actually these trees face north. I was facing south when I took the picture so I'm not sure what's going on...
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  #1220  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2011, 4:50 AM
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there are a few places where the blossoms appear first - the ones near st pauls - along burrard street - east facing open to the north/south are usually early bloomers late january early february
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