London Roads

[K85]

Just came back from the Sarnia Rd bridge, I like it One lane in each direction, but the view driving into town at night is pretty nice Good smooth curve, and possibility of expanding later.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by K85

Just came back from the Sarnia Rd bridge, I like it One lane in each direction, but the view driving into town at night is pretty nice Good smooth curve, and possibility of expanding later.

I doubt we will have to wait long for the expansion. Last I checked the City of London had widening Sarnia Road from the new bridge to Castlegrove Blvd on the books. I don't know how soon it's happening, but the plans I saw included some reconstruction of the intersection of Sarnia and Wonderland.

[MolsonExport]

Why on earth did they only make Sarnia 3 lanes when they last widened the road in 2005? A-S-I-N-I-N-E. I hate driving home from UWO along that stretch...always somebody wanting to make a left hand turn, and/or having to constantly yield for the snail-speed LTC buses, Assholes whipping past you in the RH lane just to swoop in front of you without indicating....argh!!!

Plus, Western Road(southbound)-->Sarnia Road has got to be the worst right-hand turn in the city, with the traffic coming from 3 angles and students loping, bikes running the light...somebody will get killed there someday soon, mark my words. I have already been rear-ended twice at that intersection.

[Blitz]

^ Definitely....there's always a massive line-up of cars trying to turn there but can't because of the pedestrians. My commute from UWO to downtown at the end of the day is a disgusting 20 minutes long. I continue straight down Western Rd all the way to Riverside and then turn left there because I've found it's actually easier going out of my way like that then it is to try to turn left onto Oxford and waiting through 3 traffic light cycles. Just a complete mess all the way around.

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Plus, Western Road(southbound)-->Sarnia Road has got to be the worst right-hand turn in the city, with the traffic coming from 3 angles and students loping, bikes running the light...somebody will get killed there someday soon, mark my words. I have already been rear-ended twice at that intersection.

Twice? Tough break, Molson, that really sucks. Whenever I need to turn right at that intersection in rush hour, I just weave through Elborn College, and it honestly saves at least 2 minutes (and your sanity). If you ever see a silver Saturn darting through the parking lot then it's probably me.

[manny_santos]

I drove across the new bridge today. It felt good.

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Why on earth did they only make Sarnia 3 lanes when they last widened the road in 2005? A-S-I-N-I-N-E. I hate driving home from UWO along that stretch...always somebody wanting to make a left hand turn, and/or having to constantly yield for the snail-speed LTC buses, Assholes whipping past you in the RH lane just to swoop in front of you without indicating....argh!!!

Sarnia Road has actually changed very little since the early 1990s...it has been 3 lanes through that stretch for as long as I can remember.

I remember when Sarnia Road was still gravel west of Wonderland and there was no development. This was as recent as the early 1990s. For me it is interesting to see how this road has evolved from a gravel road with the old one-lane bridge to what it is now in only 20 years.

[go_leafs_go02]

I was a little surprised that they did all the bridge work and didn't bothering rebuilding Sarnia road to Hyde Park Road with the closure. It's still a dinky country road between the overpass and Hyde Park...

I know Traffic Volumes don't warrant it, but that road is an eyesore and certainly could use some improvement...

[haljackey]

I don't know if you guys have been following the 2012 budget story but I came across a very startling statistic:

In 2010, London's road budget was over 40 million (partly due to stimulus money)

In 2012, London's road budget is set to be just 8 million, 5 times less than what we had 2 years ago!

To put that in perspective, it's estimated that the widening of Southdale between Wonderland and Warncliffe will cost 8.5 million. That means if we didn't spend a dime on any other road project we still wouldn't have enough money to do it.

Penny pinching at its max. No major projects next year. Bummer.

[Pimpmasterdac]

To be somewhat fair to the city, the feds aren't handing out stimulus/make work money like they were 2 years ago, so the city is limited on what it can do. Seems like 401 interchanges are the next senior level investment by the province

However the city is messing up, pushing/delaying soo many major projects back. Southdale widening was suppose to happen 2012 but was pushed to 2013 earlier this year. Oxford, Hyde Park, Wellington, Commissioners widening need to be done now!! Not another 2-5 years from now.

IMO, city needs to get its priorities straightened out. Build/maintaining roads is one of the most basic and fundamental things a municipality is suppose to do. Instead we have money being pissed away on all these special interest organizations that ought/need to sustain themselves without tax dollars. The other thing is this 1% economic levy, which I wouldn't have a problem with except it goes to asinine projects like a "beach" between Dundas & King by the River and other frills like that which aren't necessary.

The city need get our road network up to 21st century standards, then focus on these opulent wants.

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

I was a little surprised that they did all the bridge work and didn't bothering rebuilding Sarnia road to Hyde Park Road with the closure. It's still a dinky country road between the overpass and Hyde Park...

There's really nothing on Sarnia between Wonderland and Hyde Park to warrant an upgrade at the moment, especially with so many other network deficiencies. The main issue was the stupid 1-lane bridge, and that problem has now been rectified. Although I'll admit, it will feel weird having the road suddenly shift from a modern 4-lane arterial to something that looks like an old piece of the Soviet highway system.

Originally Posted by haljackey

To put that in perspective, it's estimated that the widening of Southdale between Wonderland and Warncliffe will cost 8.5 million. That means if we didn't spend a dime on any other road project we still wouldn't have enough money to do it.

Are you sure about that figure? It seems a little outrageous to me. From what I've read, the average grade-separated freeway (ie some of the most expensive roads) costs about $2 million per mile (or $1.25 million per kilometre). The distance between Wonderland and Wharncliffe can't be much more than 1.5 kilometres. Where are all these extra costs coming from? Does it actually take $6 million to throw in some PVC piping and move a few utility poles?

[haljackey]

Yup I'm sure of that figure. The total cost of the project will be nearly 10 million dollars.

You can find the stats here: http://www.london.ca/budget/Budget_2...0Forecasts.pdf (Pages 36 and 61)

-500k will be spent on it in 2012 and 7.7 million in 2013. The rest of the money was spent in 2010 and prior.

The stat you have for freeways might just be the resurfacing cost, not sure tough.
-Remember that additional infrastructure will be built as well. Sidewalks, bike lanes, bus bays, sewers/drainage, power/cable, lighting, curbs, etc. Money might also have been spent on property acquisition.

[haljackey]

Sarnia Road on November 30 shortly before it's opening.



(from the City of London)

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by haljackey

-Remember that additional infrastructure will be built as well. Sidewalks, bike lanes, bus bays, sewers/drainage, power/cable, lighting, curbs, etc. Money might also have been spent on property acquisition.

But the lighting is already there. There is already a road allowance between the properties and Southdale. The power lines are above ground. So all they really need to be concerned with is burying the sewers. Again, considering how expensive highways are, this $8.5 million sum for an urban arterial seems really excessive to me.

[Whisper09]

Not sure if this was mentioned before, but are those double bike lanes, or what? I know one for sure is a bike line, what's the other?

[Snark]

Originally Posted by Wharn

Where are all these extra costs coming from? Does it actually take $6 million to throw in some PVC piping and move a few utility poles?

Why do you believe that's all that is involved in this project?

For that matter, what do forumers here think such work should cost - say - on a per metre unit cost basis?

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Snark

Why do you believe that's all that is involved in this project?

For that matter, what do forumers here think such work should cost - say - on a per metre unit cost basis?

I think what the forumers are asking is why the relative cost of building an urban road is more than the cost of building a rural highway.

So, what all is involved in, let's say, widening Southdale Road? As far as I know, the following are involved in such a project:

- Needs assessment
- Environmental assessment
- Public consultations (sometimes 2 or more)
- Cost assessment
- Engineering
- Property acquisition/expropriation
- Obtaining requests for proposals (RFPs), bidding and awarding of contracts
- Relocation of hydro, cable, and telephone lines, while minimizing disruption to customers
- Removal of old sewer and water lines, while maintaining service to adjacent properties
- Addition of new storm sewer, sanitary sewer, and water lines
- Installation of new curbs
- Paving, twice
- Line painting
- Landscaping (sod, trees, etc.)
- New lighting
- Replacement of traffic signals and signage

I'm sure I've missed a few things.

[Symz]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

I think what the forumers are asking is why the relative cost of building an urban road is more than the cost of building a rural highway.

So, what all is involved in, let's say, widening Southdale Road? As far as I know, the following are involved in such a project:

- Needs assessment
- Environmental assessment
- Public consultations (sometimes 2 or more)
- Cost assessment
- Engineering
- Property acquisition/expropriation
- Obtaining requests for proposals (RFPs), bidding and awarding of contracts
- Relocation of hydro, cable, and telephone lines, while minimizing disruption to customers
- Removal of old sewer and water lines, while maintaining service to adjacent properties
- Addition of new storm sewer, sanitary sewer, and water lines
- Installation of new curbs
- Paving, twice
- Line painting
- Landscaping (sod, trees, etc.)
- New lighting
- Replacement of traffic signals and signage

I'm sure I've missed a few things.

That sounds like standard fair as far as any road construction in an urban setting, possibly even more!?

I know in the case of Windsor, at times they have found old street car tracks under the road they are ripping up downtown.. 'Uh, boss, we have a surprise situation'

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

I think what the forumers are asking is why the relative cost of building an urban road is more than the cost of building a rural highway.

And of all the items you mentioned, the following would also be included in the construction of any large road:

Originally Posted by manny_santos

- Needs assessment
- Environmental assessment
- Public consultations (sometimes 2 or more)
- Cost assessment
- Engineering
- Property acquisition/expropriation
- Obtaining requests for proposals (RFPs), bidding and awarding of contracts
- Paving, twice
- Line painting
- Landscaping (sod, trees, etc.) NOTE: Why is this even here? Where is there ANY notable landscaping on other London roads?

The costs still seem higher than they ought to be, especially considering Southdale isn't really even in a densely populated area. Can someone get a figure that states the average cost of widening arterials in Ontario, so we have a benchmark to compare it to?

[Kokkei Mizu]

Originally Posted by Whisper09

Not sure if this was mentioned before, but are those double bike lanes, or what? I know one for sure is a bike line, what's the other?

It appears as though the through lane is a 1.5 lanes wide, then the bike lane, then another 0.5 a lane. I'm guessing once Sarnia Rd is widened, they will move the bike lane to the curb, and will repaint the lines for the extra lane.

[Snark]

Originally Posted by Wharn

And of all the items you mentioned, the following would also be included in the construction of any large road:

Originally Posted by manny_santos View Post
I think what the forumers are asking is why the relative cost of building an urban road is more than the cost of building a rural highway.

So, what all is involved in, let's say, widening Southdale Road? As far as I know, the following are involved in such a project:

- Needs assessment
- Environmental assessment
- Public consultations (sometimes 2 or more)
- Cost assessment
- Engineering
- Property acquisition/expropriation
- Obtaining requests for proposals (RFPs), bidding and awarding of contracts
- Relocation of hydro, cable, and telephone lines, while minimizing disruption to customers
- Removal of old sewer and water lines, while maintaining service to adjacent properties
- Addition of new storm sewer, sanitary sewer, and water lines
- Installation of new curbs
- Paving, twice
- Line painting
- Landscaping (sod, trees, etc.)
- New lighting
- Replacement of traffic signals and signage

I'm sure I've missed a few things.


The costs still seem higher than they ought to be, especially considering Southdale isn't really even in a densely populated area. Can someone get a figure that states the average cost of widening arterials in Ontario, so we have a benchmark to compare it to?

That's a pretty good list. A few items of note:

-There is no storm sewer, sanitary sewer, or watermain to require removal. Power and telecom are overhead. Property acquisitions would be minimal, as widenings can be taken from the subdivisions on the south at no cost to the City.

- The road will not only be widened, it will be completely rebuilt and widened. Intersections will see 5 lanes.

- Stormwater infrastructure costs will be substantial.

- Lighting will be doubled to both sides of the street. Existing utility poles will be relocated in all likelihood.

- Separate bikeways on both sides

A very back of the envelope guesstimate in my head says $7M - $9M.

Road/underground construction : $4.75M
Utility pole relocation: $0.35M
SWM: $0.4M
Traffic lighting: $0.3M
Streetlighting: $0.2M
Sound barriers: $0.3M
Consulting fees (engineering, EA, project mgmt): $1.2M
Other (staff time, traffic control, etc): $0.15M
Contingency: $0.75m

The true cost of the work won't be known until the EA is complete, and preliminary design begins. The $10M figure is a conservative placeholder, as nobody wants to go back to council and request more money. When that happens, the headline in the paper the next day is typically: "Project Spirals Out Of Control Before It Begins". Better to budget a little high and give some back at the end. That's the optics of the biz.