Hassalo on Eighth | 21 floors | Completed

[davehogan]

Originally Posted by 2oh1

Portland's population is growing rapidly. I don't think there will be a glut of apartments. The question is whether there will be a glut of apartments Portlanders can't afford to rent.

I have a feeling what will happen is what I've seen in other markets, where high end apartments are built, driving down prices of what used to be high end slightly while those push down prices slightly for the mid range ones. Affordable ones get forgotten until the mid range ones age/are neglecting enough that they're not mid range anymore. That's how it seemed to work in LA and San Diego, anyway.

It still led to a crappy studio in a decent neighborhood being $800/mo, but, well, that's the corner we seem to be painting ourselves into.

[tworivers]

Sorry, but I'm skeptical 1) that PDX's population is growing rapidly at the moment (does anyone have numbers for the recession years?) or that Metro's population projections can be counted on... and 2) because, despite the low vacancy rates, PDX is small enough that the actual numbers needed to create a glut might be less than we like to imagine. That is pure hunch on my part; I hope I'm wrong because I desperately want to see vastly greater residential densities in the central city.

[BrG]

Originally Posted by 2oh1

There was so much greed. People were buying more than they could afford. ......... Developers were building projects priced beyond what the city needed in an attempt at a get rich quick cash grab. What a mess. ..... I really hope the same thing doesn't happen again with apartments. Portland needs apartments badly, but if a similar sky-is-the-limit approach is taken, it'll be a disaster.

This tells me that you likely don't understand the economics of new construction at that time, and also now.

First: The raw material costs and total construction costs per sf in the early 2000's translated into far cheaper $/sf sale prices for new units than in the last 5 years. That's disregarding the real estate market entirely, and just focusing on raw materials (structural steel has been extremely expensive for several years, for example)

Second: There is NOTHING about real estate development in multi-family housing that is "get rich quick /cash grab".

It's very high risk for all involved, very very expensive, and anything but quick. Unless you think 'quick' is a minimum of several years of day to day, financially high risk work, spending lots of your own money, with not a dime in revenue from a project that does not yet exist.

Bottom line, is that the larger projects are barely plausible to commercial lenders at a cost that ALREADY translates to rather high $/sf rents in a believable ProForma. It's a HUGE challenge to even make a 'break-even' case for any 'affordable' project, without significant taxpayer subsidies.

Which sucks....because like you said...this town needs housing. For real people.

If the Lloyd project can be pulled off at the scale that is envisioned, it will be a huge accomplishment in anything that resembles this economic development climate.

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by BrG

This tells me that you likely don't understand the economics of new construction at that time, and also now.

I'll be the first to admit that I don't work in the industry and, thus, I see it from an outsider's point of view. Correct me if I'm wrong, but, it sure seemed like at the height of the housing bubble, far too many of the projects being built in the urban core were aimed at the fewest buyers: the very wealthy. If you're saying it's impossible to build homes in or around downtown for under $200,000, then I guess the situation is hopeless for the working class (though it's interesting that the Cornerstone Condos building opened in 2000 and prices there started at under $100,000 for 465 square feet, downtown, and nearby, the Mosaic was finished in 2003 with units starting at $135K - again, new construction. Downtown).

I do understand the raw materials aspect of it. I understand in that prices for steel, etc, skyrocketed, and no, I don't understand why that is though I do understand it's not developers' fault.

Like I said, I could definitely be wrong, but it sure looked like buildings such as the 937, the Encore and others in the Pearl (not to mention South Waterfront) aimed too high, price wise and luxury-wise. And the developers got burned because there were too many luxury units on the market. Even before the crash, there were struggles to sell them. And even during the worst of the recession, housing in the city under $200K was selling, though that slowed once the credit crunch hit - but it wasn't a case of a lack of buyers so much as it was a case of buyers who couldn't get loans once banks stopped lending.

Hey, I understand that it's a business. I assume developers had research that gave them guidance for predicting sales at certain price points, and I understand that certain projects only got built because the assumption was they'd pencil out as their sky-high luxury units sold. There was so much talk in 2007/2008 about empty nesters and retirees looking to downsize. I think - and, again, I could be wrong, but - I think too many of those involved bought into their own hype. Hell... I remember touring an apartment in the Lexis by Hoyt. Maybe you're thinking "Those aren't apartments. They're condos." Well, they were designed and built as apartments, but at the very last minute - so late in the process that they were beginning to lease them - the property was changed to condos rather than apartments. But, hey, that wasn't a get rich quick cash grab at all. Of course not. They probably flipped them to condos so they could fund an orphanage somewhere.

I do realize projects like the 937 (for example) wouldn't have been built if they didn't aim for such high price points. But I wonder what might have been built instead. Surely, whatever would have been built wouldn't be as marvelous (again, using the 937 building as an example... I happen to love that building, personally). But would the Pearl be better off with fewer awesome luxury projects and more smaller places Portlanders can afford to live in? Maybe 8 stories of good is better than 20 stories of wow. Maybe that's not even possible.

I'm not saying all developers are crooked, nor am I saying they could all easily build towers of affordable lofts. I'm just saying there was a lot of greed in the height of the housing bubble. And I'm saying that I hope it isn't going to happen again any time soon. I'm saying that I hope lessons were learned.

Of course, I could be wrong there too. Perhaps there wasn't any greed at all.

I am excited about this particular project, even if it does end up being as pricy as I suspect it will. Lloyd Center has a lot to offer, and this could be a huge step toward creating a lot more housing demand there as it starts to become an actual neighborhood. It could be one heck of a catalyst.

I am for this project in a very big way.

[bvpcvm]

ahem. surprised no one's posted this yet.

[bvpcvm]

ooh, and one of those buildings includes a grocery store

[MarkDaMan]

Sweet, I normally check the LU notices on Friday. YAY!

[pdxtraveler]

Originally Posted by bvpcvm

ahem. surprised no one's posted this yet.

I meant to yesterday but didn't get around to it!

I noticed that the tallest building lost 7 floors from the initial articles. But still very pleased with the project.

I used to work in the 700 Lloyd Building and still go to the dentist there. According to the hygenist they have had meetings with the tenants and are trying for construction early next year.

VERY exciting for the area. I think it will really change the feel.

[Sioux612]

For some odd reason that link wont work for me, any pictures of the revised plans?

[zilfondel]

Whats with the mini apartment building? Its dwarfed by the rest of the development.

[bvpcvm]

Originally Posted by Sioux612

For some odd reason that link wont work for me, any pictures of the revised plans?

i'm not sure what the deal is, but some links from that site don't work for me either. others do. in this case, i had to download it to my desktop and then it opened just fine.

[MarkDaMan]

Same problem for me. Only thing I can think of is I used Firefox at work and it opens fine, I use Chrome at home and I have to save the download to my computer first. I've had some other strange problems with my current Chrome update so I'm blaming that!

[PacificNW]

Yup...I usually use Chrome and have to save the pdf file prior to viewing... When I use Safari it automatically saves in my download folder.....this just started happening when I upgraded Adobe.... I understand from a help forum it may have to do with whether your particular browser is set for 32 or 64 bit....I understand Adobe files won't open if set to 64 bit... Easy to open from my downloads folder...

Btw, opens fine on my iPad....no 2nd steps....

[maccoinnich]

It's hard to tell from the low quality scan, but it looks like they're proposing reinstating NE Hassalo street through that block. Which is great from an urban design POV.

[tworivers]

24 stories... would that be the tallest in Lloyd?

I wonder if they have a grocery tenant on board yet...

[maccoinnich]

Also worth noting: the elevations look a lot more opaque than the glassy towers presented back in March. Very Brewery Blocks. And having walked through the Brewery Blocks this afternoon, that's no bad thing.

Originally Posted by tworivers

I wonder if they have a grocery tenant on board yet...

I'd be surprised if they didn't, because it's a huge risk to create retail spaces of that size that aren't pre-let. I'm trying to thing of grocery chains that don't already have a presence in inner NE. Safeway, Whole Foods and New Seasons all have (or will have) stores nearby. Fred Meyer and Trader Joe's have stores just a little further away. Perhaps Zupan's or Albertsons?

[bvpcvm]

Remember the enormous multi-building project in the Lloyd District? If I'm reading it correctly, it's been scaled back a bit.

The page for permits on this block appears to list 3 projects, each of which had some sort of permitting activity in July, followed by new permitting activity on January 3rd.

Building 1 was 24 stories, now 6. Includes fewer units that initially planned.
Building 2 was 20 stories, now 18. More units, however.
Building 3 was two 6-story buildings, now 1. Also has more units than initially planned.

[MarkDaMan]

I read it the same way. This is incredibly disappointing. On SO many levels.

[RED_PDXer]

Glad to see it's still happening in some form. Sounds like maybe 100 fewer units. No biggie. There's still plenty of other parking lots to develop on. This is only the beginning...

[tworivers]

Hate to be Debbie Downer yet again but this is so Portland. Seems like almost every tower gets cut down eventually and I had a feeling that would happen with this project. It just seemed too good to be true. Is it like this in every city?

I agree with RED_PDXer, though. It will be great to have that block filled in. And if the lower heights/density mean that greater demand is left for continued development elsewhere, even better.