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  #1801  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2012, 10:46 PM
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Hamilton will have to pick up some of the cost of LRT, mayor told

http://www.cbc.ca/hamilton/news/stor...atina-amo.html

Hamilton will have to come up with ways to fund part of the costs if it proceeds with a plan to install Light Rail Transit (LRT), says Mayor Bob Bratina.

The mayor met Monday with Bob Chiarelli, Ontario's Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation, at the Association of Ontario Municipalities (AMO) conference in Ottawa.

The minister clarified that Hamilton will have to raise a share of the cost of establishing an LRT service, Bratina said in a phone interview with CBC Hamilton on Tuesday.

“It was a relief to finally hear a clear statement from the minister that there will be participation expected from the host community,” he said.

Hamilton has been examining LRT since 2007, when the province announced MoveOntario 2020, now under Metrolinx, to establish light rail in Hamilton and the GTA.

The city established a Rapid Transit office. Last September, council passed a motion asking for the province's commitment to fully fund the two planned LRT lines in Hamilton.

But Bratina says he learned in his meeting with Chiarelli this week that municipalites will have to look at revenue options to help raise the $50 billion to finance the planned LRT projects.

Bratina will also meet with Environment Minister Jim Bradley about Randle Reef, an underwater toxic mass in Hamilton Harbour. He is also meeting with Kathleen Wynne, Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing.

Also at the AMO conference, Dundas councilor Russ Powers will be acclaimed as the association's new president.
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  #1802  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2012, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by SteelTown View Post
Hamilton will have to pick up some of the cost of LRT, mayor told

Hamilton will have to come up with ways to fund part of the costs if it proceeds with a plan to install Light Rail Transit (LRT), says Mayor Bob Bratina.
Nail...hammer...coffin.

Prove me wrong, Bob.
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  #1803  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2012, 12:56 PM
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I'm fine with Hamilton contributing some of the cost. LRT is an investment. Personally I'd rather the city stand up to the police department and take the extra 5% they seem to give every year and put that towards LRT.
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  #1804  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2012, 1:21 PM
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This will likely result in breaking up the B-Line into phases. I'm guessing phase 1 will be from McMaster to Downtown, phase 2 will be Downtown to Gage and phase 3 Gage to Eastgate. Phase 4 to expand to Dundas and/or Stoney Creek.
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  #1805  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2012, 2:27 PM
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I'm fine with Hamilton contributing some of the cost. LRT is an investment.
Me too. I'd pay more taxes. Let's see more numbers, cost, return on investment, etc. Let's get moving.
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  #1806  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2012, 3:13 PM
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Originally Posted by SteelTown View Post
“It was a relief to finally hear a clear statement from the minister that there will be participation expected from the host community,” he said.
That's not a clear statement! How much of the cost are we talking about here? 50%? 20%? 80%? Let's get some numbers here...
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  #1807  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2012, 5:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelTown View Post
This will likely result in breaking up the B-Line into phases. I'm guessing phase 1 will be from McMaster to Downtown, phase 2 will be Downtown to Gage and phase 3 Gage to Eastgate. Phase 4 to expand to Dundas and/or Stoney Creek.
Unfortunately this will take another 25-30 years to complete in it's entirety and there is still a fairly good chance that entire portions of the route will be canceled completely or scaled down to BRT.

I think it's fair that Hamilton kicks in an extra funding chunk but I also think that this is going to kill the project entirely or severely set it back. The overcrowding on the B-Line is happening now and a fix is 25-30 years isn't enough.
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  #1808  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2012, 5:17 PM
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Think I read having LRT from McMaster to Downtown would cost something like $250 million. If it's 1/3 funding, which I doubt, the most the City would have to pay $83 million, which is doable spread over five years.

So McMaster to Downtown could be built within 5 years, 2017.
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  #1809  
Old Posted Aug 23, 2012, 12:33 AM
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If the city has to pay, it's dead in the water. The promise was that it wasn't going to cost us a cent. Council will not back it, if we have to pay for it. There are too many other priorities.
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  #1810  
Old Posted Aug 23, 2012, 2:00 AM
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The city's portion could likely be financed with the operational savings if the line is at all viable from a ridership perspective.

Of course everyone wants LRT when it is 'free', but then you have places like Waterloo Region proposing a largely useless line. (which is being built solely due to higher political considerations). Forcing a co-pay should help split the wheat from the chaff.
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  #1811  
Old Posted Aug 23, 2012, 2:02 AM
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Not costing the city a cent is completely unrealistic. This kind of project doesn't happen without some municipal funding. I'm not sure why this would be news or a a shock to anyone.
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  #1812  
Old Posted Aug 23, 2012, 3:00 AM
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Not costing the city a cent is completely unrealistic. This kind of project doesn't happen without some municipal funding. I'm not sure why this would be news or a a shock to anyone.
It definitely doesn't shock me at all but I do believe the city is going to use this as leverage to either completely abandon the LRT project or severely push back the deadlines/phase it in sections over a ridiculously long time window.

The support for putting any sort of city money forward on LRT has been tepid at best and the suburban voting majority definitely isn't going to have it, no matter what the funding commitment.
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  #1813  
Old Posted Aug 23, 2012, 11:18 AM
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I've considered the LRT project dead since 2010. There's no political will from the city, little support from the citizenry, no money at the provincial level, and the current Federal gov't doesn't support stuff like this. There's basically a couple people at the city who support it, and a small group of progressive citizens.
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  #1814  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2012, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by drpgq View Post
I'm fine with Hamilton contributing some of the cost. LRT is an investment. Personally I'd rather the city stand up to the police department and take the extra 5% they seem to give every year and put that towards LRT.
The term sacred cow comes to mind.

Last edited by Dr Awesomesauce; Aug 24, 2012 at 11:53 AM.
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  #1815  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2012, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by SteelTown View Post
Think I read having LRT from McMaster to Downtown would cost something like $250 million. If it's 1/3 funding, which I doubt, the most the City would have to pay $83 million, which is doable spread over five years.

So McMaster to Downtown could be built within 5 years, 2017.
Mac-Downtown

Would that be enough, though? I'm not sure it would serve much of a purpose; that's the danger of half-assing this project. If the line were to hang a left at James and continue another 2 km to Pier 8, then I might change my tune. At the very least, I'd like to see the B-Line terminate at Ottawa St. That's about 5 km west of Centennial / Eastgate Mall, so that's a significant chunk of change saved.
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  #1816  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2012, 12:33 PM
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Hamilton Mayor Bob Bratina's recent statement to CBC that Bob Chiarelli, Ontario's Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation, had confirmed "that there will be participation expected from the host community" for projects funded by Metrolinx is not news, and I'm not sure why the Mayor felt "relieved" to be able to report this.

Ever since the Liberals announced in the Fall of 2007 that they intended to fund two rapid transit lines in Hamilton, we have known that Hamilton would have to contribute at least some share of the costs.

This has been confirmed repeatedly, in November 2008 when then Metrolinx Chair Rob MacIsaac said that Metrolinx is prepared "to pay the lion's share" of the capital costs, and later when Metrolinx confirmed that they would pay 100 percent of a bare-bones LRT, but that Hamilton would need to pay for associated infrastructure upgrades and extras.

I was a member of the Rapid Transit Citizen's Advisory Committee in 2010-2011, which gave members of the public an opportunity to participate directly in the LRT planning process.

We spent several meetings learning how staff were estimating the costs that Hamilton would likely need to contribute to the LRT project.
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  #1817  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2012, 2:14 PM
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Originally Posted by pEte fiSt iN Ur fAce View Post
Mac-Downtown

Would that be enough, though? I'm not sure it would serve much of a purpose; that's the danger of half-assing this project. If the line were to hang a left at James and continue another 2 km to Pier 8, then I might change my tune. At the very least, I'd like to see the B-Line terminate at Ottawa St. That's about 5 km west of Centennial / Eastgate Mall, so that's a significant chunk of change saved.
I'd rather see the first phase of LRT hang a right and head up to the Mohawk College transit hub. That would link four of multi-mode traffic nodes by LRT. BRT can run west from Eastgate to the core, then head north on James to the future GO station and the harbourfront.
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  #1818  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2012, 9:03 PM
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I think tax payers would rather pay a bit more for the full B-line than a bit less for a severely cut down system. Mac to downtown alone is barely enough to save time let alone justify the fixed costs of vehicles and a maintenance facility. That facility is supposed to go on Wentworth so the first phase of LRT would have to at least go that far, and there aren't exactly a lot of viable alternatives.

Let's not jump to conclusions about the fate of the LRT project given the sudden revelation of the obvious fact that Hamilton will have to pay some portion between zero and 100% but probably much closer to zero. It is an easy conclusion to make if most people view good transit as a service for the poor, an unnecessary frill or something that only works in Europe.

More people are seeing transit as a necessity for the increasingly crowded and energy - starved future, a public good that benefits all, and a positive lifestlye choice. Those people are going to see the cost as an investment with positive returns.

Hamilton can't keep being the city that can never do anything new or different because it's too expensive and it wouldn't work here. It has to change and it is changing.
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  #1819  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2012, 1:22 AM
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I'm not sure what Joe-taxpayer wants but I'm pretty sure they want nothing to do with LRT. The City's going to have to put together a very slick sales pitch if they want to move forward with this project. You're right, though, that the whole length of the B-line should be done: It would be a better people-mover and it would be cheaper in the long run.

That said, I wouldn't have a big fit if the City wanted to terminate the line at Ottawa; it's not ideal but the B-line would be long enough to serve a purpose and that saved money could potentially allow for spurs to both Pier 8 and Mohawk.

A line from downtown to the pier would only be about 2 km, so it wouldn't break the bank and it would spur a tonne of growth along its length, especially at the harbour.

Mohawk should also be connected but it presents one obvious problem: What to do about the escarpment? We've been told an LRT vehicle won't make the grade of James Mountain Road, so that leaves two options: tunnel or use the Claremont. A tunnel would, no doubt, be wickedly expensive while using the Claremont Access is a bit circuitous and might also be really expensive.

The A-line in general is far more contentious than the lower city route. Few people are truly sold on using Upper James as there's so little demand from a public transit perspective: there's relatively little residential compared to other possible routes; and having it terminate at YHM seems silly as it has neither the employment numbers nor passenger numbers to warrant such an expense. The A-line, not that it's ever going to happen, is still up for debate.


Last edited by Dr Awesomesauce; Aug 25, 2012 at 10:31 AM.
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  #1820  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2012, 6:36 PM
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Farr's motion....

Whereas, Hamilton City Council is on record as desiring 100% capital funding from the Province of Ontario for LRT, and;

http://www.hamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/...LRT__Farr_.pdf
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