Poll: Should the University of British Columbia join the NCAA?

[Rusty Gull]

B.C. schools treading carefully on sports move south
NCAA opens the door to teams from UBC, SFU -- but officials express caution

Dan Stinson
Vancouver Sun

Tuesday, January 15, 2008

The door is now open to Canadian schools joining the NCAA, but both UBC and SFU aren't ready to step through it quite yet.

While delegates at the National Collegiate Athletic Association annual convention in Nashville approved possible Canadian schools membership on Monday, it will be some time before the University of B.C. and Simon Fraser University decide whether to seek membership in the U.S. college network.

Reacting to news that NCAA Division II delegates overwhelmingly approved a pilot program allowing Canadian schools to apply for membership as soon as June 1, UBC athletics director Bob Philip said: "This is just the start of a process that needs to be thoroughly discussed on our campus."

Philip's thoughts were echoed by Diane St-Denis, SFU's acting athletics director.

"This must involve discussions with many people on campus, not just those involved in athletics," said St-Denis.

The delegates' vote was 258-9 in favour of the pilot program on the final day of the convention. It takes effect immediately.

The pilot program could eventually lead to Canadian schools competing in some NCAA Division I sports. Several details still must be worked out, but the concept is designed to allow Canadian schools to explore membership.

The program allows the NCAA to study any logistical challenges from competing outside the U.S. Schools that meet the June 1 deadline could start the process of joining Division II as soon as the 2008-09 academic year.

"We were pretty excited by how it [the pilot program] was received," said Philip. "It was a good motion and it was well written. Now we begin a process of discussions on campus. There are a lot of things that have to be discussed, including finding a [NCAA Division II] conference to play in. Those discussions will be on a sport-by-sport basis. There are a whole bunch of different options."

Philip said those options include playing in the Great Northwest Athletic Conference and the Pacific West Conference of Division II. The closest school to UBC in the GNAC is Western Washington, which is located in Bellingham, and closest PWC school to UBC is Dixie College of St. George, Utah.

"It's great that the restrictions for NCAA membership have come off," said Philip. "But finding a conference to play in is another matter. We've got to discuss which conference best meets our needs for athletics. While most of our teams play in Canadian Interuniversity Sport, we have some teams, such as baseball, playing in the [U.S.-based] NAIA."

SFU is more evenly divided between CIS and NAIA membership. While its basketball, volleyball and football teams play in CIS, the soccer, cross-country and track and field teams compete in the NAIA.

"I'm pleased that the NCAA has seen the value of adding Canadian schools," said St-Denis. "But there's a gap between what we want to do and what we need to do. The questions include whether we're fit psychologically to move up to NCAA, whether we can compete at that level, and whether can we do it financially."

St-Denis said SFU's academic faculty would have to be included in discussions about seeking NCAA membership.

"A move to the NCAA isn't just related to athletics," she said. "It also involves a change in how we approach academics for our students, and it plays a big part in the equation."

UBC and SFU are among four Canadian schools that have reportedly discussed NCAA membership. The others are the University of Alberta and St. Claire College of Windsor, Ont.

The University of Victoria has not expressed an interest in joining the NCAA, but athletics director Clint Hamilton said the university is keenly interested in the future of the Canada West conference.

"If UBC and SFU go to the NCAA, it would change the picture of the conference significantly," said Hamilton.

Any school looking to make the move to NCAA would have to deal with substantial changes in the recruiting of athletes. The major difference between membership in CIS and the NCAA is the way athletic scholarships are awarded.

In the NCAA, a Canadian university would be able to award a full-ride scholarship. In CIS, first-year students are able to receive a maximum of tuition, but only if they have a high enough academic average -- at least 80 per cent.

There would also be eligibility issues with hockey teams, as any player with past major junior experience would be ineligible to play in the NCAA. Many former Canadian Hockey League players play for their Canadian schools.

There is a provision in NCAA Division II that allows a school to have a maximum of one men's and one women's team participating in Division I athletics. That means if UBC is successful in getting Division II membership, its hockey team could play in Division I. There is no NCAA Division II hockey program.

If UBC and SFU are not accepted into a Division II conference, the only other option would be to play as an independent.

danstinson@shaw.ca
© The Vancouver Sun 2008

[Nutterbug]

In the NCAA, a Canadian university would be able to award a full-ride scholarship. In CIS, first-year students are able to receive a maximum of tuition, but only if they have a high enough academic average -- at least 80 per cent.

There would also be eligibility issues with hockey teams, as any player with past major junior experience would be ineligible to play in the NCAA. Many former Canadian Hockey League players play for their Canadian schools.

Two important points. I vote no.

Academic integrity is at stake here. Any academically substandard student should not make it on atheletic ability alone.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by Nutterbug

Two important points. I vote no.

Academic integrity is at stake here. Any academically substandard student should not make it on atheletic ability alone.

That's what happened to one of my classmates...he's an asswipe. He's gotten in trouble so many times...normally, people like him would be expelled. But he was only suspended once, for the rest of the school term. Why? He's an amazing football player on the verge of joining the NFL (he got a full sports scholarship to some Californian university) and he's also good at shotput - to the point he may even qualify for the 2012 Olympics in London. On top of all that, he was a "star" at my school's varsity football team - we've been in the finals at BC Place like every year (haven't won in awhile however).

Bear in mind that I come from a private school....it's probably a lot more different than a public school. Quite unfair imo, and there was certainly a lot of favouritism towards him by the school administration.

[Nutterbug]

Originally Posted by mr.x2

That's what happened to one of my classmates...he's an asswipe. He's gotten in trouble so many times...normally, people like him would be expelled. But he was only suspended once, for the rest of the school term. Why? He's an amazing football player on the verge of joining the NFL (he got a full sports scholarship to some Californian university) and he's also good at shotput - to the point he may even qualify for the 2012 Olympics in London. On top of all that, he was a "star" at my school's varsity football team - we've been in the finals at BC Place like every year (haven't won in awhile however).

Just wish him a career ending injury before he ever collects an NFL paycheque.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by Nutterbug

Just wish him a career ending injury before he ever collects an NFL paycheque.

He and his friends abused a girl at one of our school's dances (which have since been banned because of the incident)....they were huddling around her in a circle on the crowded dance floor, and she was giving bj's to all of them. Apparently, she was also high with crack or something...was rushed to hospital the next day because of an overdose i think.

I don't know how the school found out, as apparently nobody came forward even though many who went to the dance knew what was going on in the circle.....everyone except him that was involved was expelled. He got away with a suspension.

Some sick shit indeed. And if he ever does make it to the NFL, i'll let you know who he is. He has been in the Province and Sun quite a few times, as well as on CTV and CBC.

[Nutterbug]

Originally Posted by mr.x2

He and his friends abused a girl at one of our school's dances (which have since been banned because of the incident)....they were huddling around her in a circle on the crowded dance floor, and she was giving bj's to all of them. Apparently, she was also high with crack or something...was rushed to hospital the next day because of an overdose i think.

I don't know how the school found out, as apparently nobody came forward even though many who went to the dance knew what was going on in the circle.....everyone except him that was involved was expelled. He got away with a suspension.

I take it a public school wouldn't be as rife in favouritism and corruption.

High schools should have their share of social critics and loudmouths in the student body who will call the administration to task on these things in their newsletters and whatnot. Or will that only get them into trouble?

[Nutterbug]

By the way, there should be a "No - We shouldn't sell out" option, which more accurately describes my reason for voting.

[SHOFEAR]

Something has to be done. Competition blows at the CIS level. All University's aren't equal. The regional conferences steal the chances of athletes to play at the highest level game after game and steals the opportunity of fans to watch high calibre athletics.

I stopped going to Bears hockey games because I was tired of the bears blowing out annual basement dwellers like the Thunderbirds and Pronghorns. The only good games were against the UofS and not surprisingly the arena was usually packed for those games. That being said, I do recognize that they would have to completly change their program to comply with NCAA rules. But, the important thing was 3000 20 some year olds packed into that old barn created a pretty cool booze filled atmosphere and filled a void on the local sports landscape. Something that would only improve playing the Denvers, Michagans and North Dakotas of the world.

Do a eurotrash soccer thing and allow tiers in the CIS. It would probably kill many lower end programs, but the increased travel budget would probably be offset by the increased fan interest...and you wouldn't have to change anything to comply with NCAA standards.

CIS may need to rethink its athletic policies
NCAA offers up alternative, Canadian equivalent needs to address concerns
Dan Barnes, The Edmonton Journal
Published: Tuesday, January 15
Canadian Interuniversity Sport officials aren't panicking, which is fine.

But they ought to be doing something substantive in the wake of a decision by the National Collegiate Athletic Association to accept Division II membership applications from Canadian schools, effective immediately. NCAA members voted 258-9 in favour of the proposal at their annual convention in Nashville on Monday.

University of British Columbia athletic director Bob Philip was there and it's no secret his institution is planning an application for admittance into a Division II athletic conference in the northwest U.S. and may well have the documentation ready by the NCAA's June 1 deadline. Simon Fraser University is also said to be seriously considering a move south, out of the CIS.



The University of Alberta, the most powerful CIS school with 37 national championships in the past 15 years, will now be discussing the issue at the highest level, though the chances of a June 1 application are "slim and none," said Mike Mahon, dean of physical education.

Even so, you might think the very fact the doors are open and major Canadian schools will consider the NCAA's merits would prompt reaction and introspection at CIS headquarters in Ottawa. Apparently not.

"We're always looking for ways to get better. This is not the impetus for that, whatsoever," said Marg McGregor, chief executive officer of the CIS.

It simply has to be. Prior to Monday, there was serious competition for Canadian athletes, and that's debilitating enough. Now there is serious competition for entire schools.

"It's like anything. When the landscape changes nationally and internationally we all have to consider what that means," said Mahon. "I can't speak for the CIS, but I suspect it is a point in time when it deserves some consideration and discussion. To ignore it is not a wise decision."

McGregor said her organization was expecting the NCAA vote for more than a year and has no plans to change the way it does business as a result of the decision, particularly in regard to offering athletic scholarships. And that is obviously the crux of the matter. Canadian educators complain that the brain/brawn drain could be slowed with a change to the existing CIS scholarship rules. Currently, a student-athlete is eligible for a scholarship that pays his or her tuition and nothing more. In the NCAA, student-athletes on a full ride have their room and board, books and tuition covered by the school.

The financial difference is massive and attractive to many high level athletes. Philip could not be reached for comment Monday, but has previously said his school's interest in the NCAA stems from a desire to offer more scholarship money as a means of retaining Canadian athletes.

"It's puzzling. UBC is well below the maximum (scholarship) threshold," McGregor said. "Suffice to say there is ample room to give more money and stay within our rules. There is no need for Canada to rush out and change our rules in order for UBC to give more money."


McGregor said the CIS is constantly reviewing its scholarship cap and will continue to do so. But she stressed, again, changes won't be made in response to the NCAA decision.

"Year over year there has been revision to the policy to enable members to give more money. Will we ever get to full room and board, full books and full tuition? I'd be surprised. It's somewhat like a salary cap in the National Hockey League. We are at a volume of (scholarship) money that is sustainable. If you drain program money to provide scholarships, you haven't enhanced the quality of your program."

U of A athletics director Dale Schulha said his school would never rob one facet of its programs to increase scholarship amounts. Rather, it would fund the larger scholarships with money from alumni and private corporations, so McGregor's argument would not apply.

McGregor estimated 1,500 Canadian university students are on athletic scholarships in the U.S. That's damaging to CIS schools and the Canadian sport system in general.

If major CIS schools are now prepared to defect to the U.S., the CIS has to read the warning signals and stop operating in its current vacuum. The NCAA has presented an alternative and Schulha said it's time the CIS

addressed competitive concerns, even beyond scholarships, that will prompt Canadian schools to look south with longing.

"I think the CIS has to look seriously at divisions and tiering and should do that in conjunction with Canadian colleges in order to bring colleges and universities together. That would make our situation more competitive," said Schulha.

That's not a terrible idea, given that more competitive games attract fans and fans beget sponsors and all schools are forever searching for financial backing. I'm sure there are other alternatives that would pacify school officials, attract athletes and enable the CIS to ward off the NCAA. Somebody has to be looking for them.

"I think other universities will be interested to see how successful this will be," said McGregor. "At the end of the day, I'm certain the vast majority of CIS schools are very proud to be competing in a Canadian league and they do not want to move to an American league."

But if some do?

"There are new institutions looking to join CIS."

One, anyway. The deadline passed Dec. 31 and the University of Ontario Institute of Technology was the only applicant for CIS membership. My math isn't great, but defectors might outnumber recruits two to one. That ratio could change, of course. For better or worse.

dbarnes@thejournal.canwest.com

[Nutterbug]

I think sports at the collegiate level should be more about recreation and treated as a side activity, and the competition within it shouldn't be taken too seriously.

There should be other organizations and institutions designated for the specific purpose of developing career atheletes without pretending they are students.

[quobobo]

No thanks. The $200 or so I pay every year in athletic fees is already too much.

[MistyMountainHop]

Definitely for hockey, not sure about anything else.

[cjohnny4]

I am not necessarily for UBC joining the NCAA, but being American (I immigrated to Canada four years ago) and having gone through the American university system, I feel that I should make a few points here.

First, if UBC joins the NCAA, it would only be eligible for Division II play. Division II consists of quite small and somewhat athletically inferior schools (regional universities and small liberal arts schools). My feeling from seeing the facilities at UBC is that UBC would better fit into Division II. My undergrad was NCAA Division II (about 9,000 students) and most of the sports facilities they had were *far* superior to those at UBC. True, the quality of the school wasn't as great, but it wasn't bad either. It's shocking for an American to see the poor quality of athletic facilities a school the size and stature UBC has. Anyway, my point here is that if UBC joins the NCAA, it could be humiliated to be playing such small American universities and quite possibly barely being able to keep up with them. They won't be playing teams like Kansas and Kentucky at all, and you can count on them never even having a chance to get into the Rose Bowl. Only Division I teams are eligible.

Second, I am not totally a supporter of the American athletic scholarship system because it is true that many athletes who wouldn't otherwise be accepted get admitted to the university on athletic scholarships. On the other hand, keep in mind that good athletics brings in revenue and publicity, which generates more revenue, some of which goes to improve academic programs and facilities. Also, even though some of the student athletes aren't up to high standards academically, isn't it a good thing to at least expose them to academics and provide a chance for them to get an education? Many student athletes take advantage of the opportunity to learn and are quite successful at it. When I was a grad assistant at Indiana University, the student athletes in my class were well looked-after academically. The athletic tutoring center required me to fill out reports every two weeks for all student athletes in my classes so that they could keep track of their progress. They followed up immediately on any report that showed signs of trouble. My point here is that the system in the US isn't optimal, but it does have some positives. I've experienced them first-hand.

A final point is that good athletics means school pride. I would say that the general level of school pride on American university campuses is somewhat higher than that of Canadian campuses, and I do believe that one major cause is the level of student pride and participation in university athletic teams. This pride leads to overall appreciation of the school in every aspect from respect for infrastructure (generally less vandalism and strewn trash) to respect for academic programs.

Just a few observations from a humble American here in Canada...

[Rusty Gull]

Originally Posted by cjohnny4

It's shocking for an American to see the poor quality of athletic facilities a school the size and stature UBC has. Anyway, my point here is that if UBC joins the NCAA, it could be humiliated to be playing such small American universities and quite possibly barely being able to keep up with them. They won't be playing teams like Kansas and Kentucky at all, and you can count on them never even having a chance to get into the Rose Bowl. Only Division I teams are eligible.

I disagree. The new UBC Winter Sports Centre is literally an Olympics-calibre facility that would impress even the biggest hockey programs from the NCAA.
And the hockey at CIS is definitely competitive with NCAA Div 1 -- although not nearly as glamorous or lucrative. But there are a handful of NHLers who have come up through the Canadian university ranks. There are many other Canadians who might take a pass on the WHL or OHL (both considered to be superior to NCAA hockey) to play for a Canadian NCAA team like UBC or SFU.

It would not take much for the basketball facilities to be upgraded, though I'd have to do a double-take for seating capacity. One thing I can assure you of, however -- many of the biggest basketball programs in the U.S. have aging facilities that are holding up just fine (The University of Kansas comes to mind).

The football stadium would need to be rebuilt or upgraded -- something that needs to happen at UBC regardless.

Finally, the home field for the Thunderbirds -- Nat Bailey Stadium -- is as good as many of the home ballparks for top US college baseball teams. I once saw the Notre Dame Fighting Irish play and remember thinking to myself -- this playing field is nothing special, but hey it's pretty cool because it's Notre Dame.

Originally Posted by cjohnny4

Second, I am not totally a supporter of the American athletic scholarship system because it is true that many athletes who wouldn't otherwise be accepted get admitted to the university on athletic scholarships. On the other hand, keep in mind that good athletics brings in revenue and publicity, which generates more revenue, some of which goes to improve academic programs and facilities.

A final point is that good athletics means school pride. I would say that the general level of school pride on American university campuses is somewhat higher than that of Canadian campuses, and I do believe that one major cause is the level of student pride and participation in university athletic teams. This pride leads to overall appreciation of the school in every aspect from respect for infrastructure (generally less vandalism and strewn trash) to respect for academic programs.

Just a few observations from a humble American here in Canada...

I agree wholeheartedly with you on these points. The University of Western Ontario is a good Canadian example of this, even though they do compete in the CIS. The high level of athletics there translates into overall school pride, which creates for a better university experience overall for students.

[quobobo]

Originally Posted by cjohnny4

Second, I am not totally a supporter of the American athletic scholarship system because it is true that many athletes who wouldn't otherwise be accepted get admitted to the university on athletic scholarships. On the other hand, keep in mind that good athletics brings in revenue and publicity, which generates more revenue, some of which goes to improve academic programs and facilities. Also, even though some of the student athletes aren't up to high standards academically, isn't it a good thing to at least expose them to academics and provide a chance for them to get an education? Many student athletes take advantage of the opportunity to learn and are quite successful at it. When I was a grad assistant at Indiana University, the student athletes in my class were well looked-after academically. The athletic tutoring center required me to fill out reports every two weeks for all student athletes in my classes so that they could keep track of their progress. They followed up immediately on any report that showed signs of trouble. My point here is that the system in the US isn't optimal, but it does have some positives. I've experienced them first-hand.

A final point is that good athletics means school pride. I would say that the general level of school pride on American university campuses is somewhat higher than that of Canadian campuses, and I do believe that one major cause is the level of student pride and participation in university athletic teams. This pride leads to overall appreciation of the school in every aspect from respect for infrastructure (generally less vandalism and strewn trash) to respect for academic programs.

I really, really disagree. If you're going to start putting people through school for something completely unrelated to their academic talent, you might as well start offering scholarships to the beautiful.

If this kind of thing was entirely funded by ticket sales or something it would be okay but asking students and taxpayers (public university, remember) to pay for bigger stadiums and athletic scholarships is not cool.

[Rusty Gull]

Originally Posted by quobobo

I really, really disagree. If you're going to start putting people through school for something completely unrelated to their academic talent, you might as well start offering scholarships to the beautiful.

If this kind of thing was entirely funded by ticket sales or something it would be okay but asking students and taxpayers (public university, remember) to pay for bigger stadiums and athletic scholarships is not cool.

You're right on this point. If UBC joins the NCAA it should steer clear of allowing sub-standard students admission just because they can play football or basketball.

That is one area where many US schools have failed.

[SFUVancouver]

I am not in favour of joining the NCAA per se, partly for the reasons that others have stated, but also because it is insulting that Canadian schools would only be eligible for Division 2 in the NCAA. Canadian universities compete in many sports at the same level as US schools, even in the absence of the immense sports infrastructure that seems to define many US schools. For example a couple of years ago the SFU Women's Crew (rowing) went to the North American something or other invitational regatta in Boston. SFU had to borrow the backup boat from Queen's and ended up placing second overall at the event, ahead of Harvard, Yale, et al. They had an automatic seed for the following year because of their stellar performance but I am unsure whether they went or not because as well funded as sport is at SFU, the amount needed to be on par with the big private US schools would be prohibitive.

Incidentally, the proposed SFU sports complex will include an international-caliber aquatics venue with thousands of spectator seats plus an MLS-caliber field house for soccer/rugby/lacrosse etc.

[cjohnny4]

Originally Posted by Rusty Gull

I disagree. The new UBC Winter Sports Centre is literally an Olympics-calibre facility that would impress even the biggest hockey programs from the NCAA.
And the hockey at CIS is definitely competitive with NCAA Div 1 -- although not nearly as glamorous or lucrative. But there are a handful of NHLers who have come up through the Canadian university ranks. There are many other Canadians who might take a pass on the WHL or OHL (both considered to be superior to NCAA hockey) to play for a Canadian NCAA team like UBC or SFU.

It would not take much for the basketball facilities to be upgraded, though I'd have to do a double-take for seating capacity. One thing I can assure you of, however -- many of the biggest basketball programs in the U.S. have aging facilities that are holding up just fine (The University of Kansas comes to mind).

The football stadium would need to be rebuilt or upgraded -- something that needs to happen at UBC regardless.

Finally, the home field for the Thunderbirds -- Nat Bailey Stadium -- is as good as many of the home ballparks for top US college baseball teams. I once saw the Notre Dame Fighting Irish play and remember thinking to myself -- this playing field is nothing special, but hey it's pretty cool because it's Notre Dame.

I was primarily thinking of basketball, football, and track. Just to give you an idea about a NCAA Division 1 university's athletics facilities: the football stadium at Indiana University (38,000 students and a research 1 institution quite comparable to UBC in terms of size and academics) has a seating capacity of 60,000, and their football program has been one of the worst in the Big Ten for at least a decade! They even have an indoor football practice facility. The basketball arena is aging but holds 17,000. IU has just begun an expansion of the football stadium, they are adding on a two-court basketball practice gym. In addition, there is a relatively new aquatic center about the same size as the one at UBC, a soccer stadium with a seating capacity of about 15,000, and new indoor and outdoor track stadiums. The baseball and softball diamonds are being completely renovated next year.

While I have to say that I'm somewhat proud of the facilities (it was always fun to show them off to visitors who were sports fans) at IU, and proud of my alma mater as a result, I did have issues with some of these improvements being paid for with student fees and tuition increases. In my view, it's a trade-off. The revenue intercollegiate athletics generates is good for the school as long as it is at least partly used to improve academics and other infrastructure. Also, I am quite a believer in the power of school pride generated from athletics to cause students to have a better overall university experience. As far as admitting subpar students as athletes, keep in mind that the vast majority of student athletes at most NCAA institutions are good students. Those who are struggling get a lot of help. The NCAA is there to regulate when it comes to these issues, and they are quite strict in enforcing their regulations. I'm not supporting the whole idea of admitting academically-challenged students on a widespread basis, but I guess I just want to point out that while the American system has its flaws, I also think there are a lot of positives to consider.

Whether this type of set-up is right for Canadian schools is another issue. Joining the NCAA certainly wouldn't bring about huge changes at UBC and SFU immediatly if at all. I just wanted to point out potential positives before yany decision to join the NCAA is immediately written off.

[Nutterbug]

I think a university's athletic resources should be directed more towards encouraging participation among all students, and making the facilities available to them, instead of glorifying a few elite athletes. That, I think, will be more conducive to a stronger, healthier and more productive body and mind among the student population than any sense of pride to be had from any winning varsity team.

[cjohnny4]

Originally Posted by Nutterbug

I think a university's athletic resources should be directed more towards encouraging participation among all students, and making the facilities available to them, instead of glorifying a few elite athletes. That, I think, will be more conducive to a stronger, healthier and more productive body and mind among the student population than any sense of pride to be had from any winning varsity team.

Agreed that participation among all students in athletics (intramural, etc.) is extremely important in achieving these goals and that's not to say that those programs aren't strong at US schools. They are incredibly organized and strong, and varsity athletic venues are used by intramural teams. Also, it's not just a winning varsity team that encourages pride. The facilities, the spirit of competition with similar schools, the marching bands, and the accompanying student events and alumuna that come out to support all of this despite even a losing home team. All of it generates revenue and publicity for the school, which, in the competitive environment of US higher education, is a good thing (but not always entirely good)....Just a few thoughts....

[Phil McAvity]

If the two Canadian teams do join the NCAA, they should change the name of the Association to the ICAA, but they probably won't. So many sports organizations are misnamed. Like how do the Toronto Blue Jays play in the "American" League? And remember all those American football teams that were in the CFL?

The thing I don't get though is, I thought Albertans were more like Americans than BCer's. This sounds more like something the U of C would cook up, not UBC and (especially not) SFU.