Are there major cities in the Great Plains region?

[JoeMusashi]

The Twin Cities aren't really the Great Lakes. A different region begins outside of Southeastern Wisconsin/Northern IL (Chicago/Milwaukee). Minneapolis is more like a much larger and more cosmopolitan version of Madison or Des Moines. A region that includes most of Wisconsin, much of Iowa, and North Dakota.

Northwoods mixed with Great Plains. Overall apart of Upper Midwest region including WI/MI.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Chef

Minneapolis is not a Great Lakes city. It is also not a Great Plains city.

i would agree that minneapolis is not a "great lakes city". i think of cities that are specifically "great lakes" as those that are directly upon a great lakes shore or one of their connecting waterways. chicago is a "great lakes city", indianapolis is not. cleveland is a "great lakes city", columbus is not. buffalo is a "great lakes city", pittsburgh is not.

but there's also the broader "great lakes region" that includes land far away from the lakes themselves. for instance, ohio, michigan, indiana, illinois, and wisconsin (and sometimes minnesota) are often collectively referred to as the "great lakes states", even though much of the landmass of those states is nowhere near the lakes themselves and the fact that there are other states (NY & PA) that also have great lakes shoreline that usually aren't grouped under that heading.

so does minneapolis fit into that larger understanding of a "great lakes region"? yes an no, i'd say. the lines get fuzzy up there in the northwest extreme of the midwest.

another complicating issue is that minneapolis is perhaps the most isolated major metro area (1M+) in the eastern half of the nation. the next closest major metro metro area to minneapolis is milwaukee at 300 miles away. chicago is 350 miles away, kansas city is 410 miles away, and denver is 700 miles away. it's pretty far off on its own in terms of proximity to other big league cities (at least by eastern US standards, out west the scale of everything changes).

[Crawford]

Perhaps Minnesotans will have a different worldview, but outsiders will definitely group Twin Cities in with the Great Lakes region.

When I think most similar state to Minnesota, Wisconsin is the obvious choice. Alongside Michigan, the three "Up North" states. Cottages, motorboats on inland lakes, snowmobiling, campfires, etc.

[mhays]

"Outsiders" don't all have the same opinion. For example I'd find it ludicrous to call MSP a Great Lakes area. The state yes, the city no.

[Chef]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Perhaps Minnesotans will have a different worldview, but outsiders will definitely group Twin Cities in with the Great Lakes region.

When I think most similar state to Minnesota, Wisconsin is the obvious choice. Alongside Michigan, the three "Up North" states. Cottages, motorboats on inland lakes, snowmobiling, campfires, etc.

I think people in the Twin Cities see Minnesota as part of the broader Midwest, but when you get below that level of classification, they tend to see Minnesota or at least the Twin Cities as a singularity within the Midwest. It is not a binary taxonomy where everything in the Midwest is either Great Lakes or Great Plains. That is a very simplistic way of looking at it. There are many versions of the Midwest.

The areas of Minnesota that are around Lake Superior are sparsely populated. They contain less than 10% of the population of the state. Is New York City a Great Lakes city? Pittsburgh is closer to a great lake than Minneapolis. Is Pittsburgh a Great Lakes city?

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Chef

The areas of Minnesota that are around Lake Superior are sparsely populated. They contain less than 10% of the population of the state. Is New York City a Great Lakes city?

It's a weak analagy, IMO. NYC is nowhere near the Great Lakes and NY State's image isn't commonly associated with lakes/watersports/woods. In contrast, the Twin Cities are closer to the Great Lakes and the state's image is heavily associated with lakes/watersports/woods.

And Erie/Ontario are barely even Great Lakes. Superior/Michigan/Huron are the primary lakes. Erie is gross and good beaches are few; Ontario is nicer but U.S. coast is mostly rocky and unsuitable for "Up North" living associated with places like Michigan/Wisconsin/Minnesota.

[Chef]

I've lived in the Twin Cities for 30 years and I've been to Lake Superior twice. Granted that is a personal anecdote but Great Lakes are not a big part of the Twin Cities. On the American side, the Great Lakes are dominated by the Rust Belt, Chicago, old heavy industry and post industrial economies. Minneapolis is not a part of that world. Minneapolis is more engaged, culturally, with the west than any of the more eastern parts of the Midwest are.

What we have here is people who really like to classify things trying to fit a squishy thing like culture into a rigid taxonomy.

[Steely Dan]

FWIW:

minneapolis to nearest great lakes shoreline: ~135 miles

manhattan to nearest great lakes shoreline: ~225 miles

[pdxtex]

Minneapolis is the upper Midwest which is nearly synonymous with the "great lakes". Does your uncle, brother, cousin, boss, sister in law own a cottage? Yes! You might be from the upper Midwest. Do you have a boat motor in your garage or know someone who fixes them? Yes. You might be from......Its an outlier but if you reach beyond proximity and borders, it shares a similar social culture to the other Midwest snowy, states that also have lots of lakes and woods. or maybe it's its' own thing......that's fine too.

[Chef]

Originally Posted by pdxtex

Minneapolis is the upper Midwest which is nearly synonymous with the "great lakes". Does your uncle, brother, cousin, boss, sister in law own a cottage? Yes! You might be from the upper Midwest. Do you have a boat motor in your garage or know someone who fixes them? Yes. You might be from......Its an outlier but if you reach beyond proximity and borders, it shares a similar social culture to the other Midwest snowy, states that also have lots of lake and woods. or maybe it's its' own thing......that's fine too.

Almost nobody I know owns a boat or a cabin. The old style middle class Scandinavian Minnesotan represents probably less than 25% of the people who live in Minneapolis proper.

You guys are basing your arguments on your stereotypes and preconceived notions.

[pdxtex]

so what you are saying is 1 in 4 minnesotans may own a boat or cabin! the plot thickens.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Chef

Almost nobody I know owns a boat or a cabin. The old style middle class Scandinavian Minnesotan represents probably less than 25% of the people who live in Minneapolis proper.

You guys are basing your arguments on your stereotypes and preconceived notions.

Minnesota, a not particularly populated state, is #4 in the nation in boat ownership. Michigan, Minnesota and Wisconsin are all in the Top 5 (joined by CA and FL, which have comparatively massive populations). Minnesota has more boat owners than Illinois and Ohio combined, two Great Lakes states with like 25 million people combined.

http://www.discoverboating.com/resou...le.aspx?id=122

Minnesota has twice as many boat owners as NY State, which has four times the population, more extreme wealth, and extensive oceanfront ideal for boating (the whole North Shore of LI and the Great South Bay are perfect for boating).

I would say, at least in terms of boating culture, Michigan, Wisconsin and Minnesota are pretty similar. NY State, not so much.

[Chef]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Minnesota, a not particularly populated state, is #4 in the nation in boat ownership. Michigan, Minnesota and Wisconsin are all in the Top 5 (joined by CA and FL, which have comparatively massive populations). Minnesota has more boat owners than Illinois and Ohio combined, two Great Lakes states with like 25 million people combined.

http://www.discoverboating.com/resou...le.aspx?id=122

Minnesota has twice as many boat owners as NY State, which has four times the population, more extreme wealth, and extensive oceanfront ideal for boating (the whole North Shore of LI and the Great South Bay are perfect for boating).

I would say, at least in terms of boating culture, Michigan, Wisconsin and Minnesota are pretty similar. NY State, not so much.

You are trying to prove a non-empirical assertion with numbers.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Chef

You are trying to prove a non-empirical assertion with numbers.

I don't think it's a non-empirical observation. The fact is that these three states all have massive amounts of boat owners, only matched by CA and FL, says a lot about regional boating culture.

[Chef]

What is Manitoba's boat ownership rate? If it is high (and I assume it is) does that make Manitoba a Great Lakes province or does it just mean that Manitoba has a lot of lakes?

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Chef

What is Manitoba's boat ownership rate? If it is high (and I assume it is) does that make Manitoba a Great Lakes province or does it just mean that Manitoba has a lot of lakes?

Hard to say. The industry stats are lumped by region, of which the "Prairies" (Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta) are one. Together they have 650,000 boats (estimated) - or about 15% of all the boats owned in Canada. This is just slightly under their share of the population (18%).

On one hand, we could say that Manitobans own a disproportionate share of those boats because they have better access to boatable lakes. On the other hand, Albertans are generally more affluent and they have some access to lakes in neighbouring British Columbia. I wouldn't be surprised if Saskatchewan had the lowest boat ownership rate among the 3.

That report suggests that 1 in 4 Canadian households owns a boat, which I find hard to believe. Are they counting kayaks or commercial vessels?

I also find it hard to believe that I spent so much of my productive morning researching Canadian boat statistics.

[pdxtex]

the is quickly turning into the witch scene from the holy grail.....and how do you tell if its a great lakes city? burnnnnn it..

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by pdxtex

the is quickly turning into the witch scene from the holy grail.....and how do you tell if its a great lakes city? burnnnnn it..

LAKE ERIE IS A WITCH!!!!!!!!



it got better

[north 42]

Originally Posted by Crawford

It's a weak analagy, IMO. NYC is nowhere near the Great Lakes and NY State's image isn't commonly associated with lakes/watersports/woods. In contrast, the Twin Cities are closer to the Great Lakes and the state's image is heavily associated with lakes/watersports/woods.

And Erie/Ontario are barely even Great Lakes. Superior/Michigan/Huron are the primary lakes. Erie is gross and good beaches are few; Ontario is nicer but U.S. coast is mostly rocky and unsuitable for "Up North" living associated with places like Michigan/Wisconsin/Minnesota.

Erie and Ontario are barely even Great Lakes? Now I've heard everything, how ridiculous! Just because you happen not to think much of them, doesn't mean they are not Great Lakes! Lots of nice beaches on the Canadian side of the lakes, some decent ones on the US side as well. Erie is suffering the most though, especially on the more shallow western parts end.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Crawford

And Erie/Ontario are barely even Great Lakes. Superior/Michigan/Huron are the primary lakes. Erie is gross and good beaches are few; Ontario is nicer but U.S. coast is mostly rocky and unsuitable for "Up North" living associated with places like Michigan/Wisconsin/Minnesota.

Make the Great Lakes Great Again!