Atlanta Beltline

[dante2308]

Originally Posted by reet

RE: "automobile efficiency and dropping fossil fuel usage are stripping away the environmental arguments against cars" -- better fuel efficiency and lower pollution of automobiles are inarguable good things and as someone very concerned about the environment I applaud these improvements, but there are other environmental concerns involved in our societal dominance of personal car ownership. The massive land-space coverage of asphalt for roads and parking spaces that serves the needs of car owners is an environmental hazard -- one that concerns me more so than the fuel consumption issue.

Oddly enough it would seem that Atlanta's environmental impact is atypical for such sprawl. I think there are several communities including the one I live in that have embraced the value of preserving nature and reducing the impact by actually reducing density and encouraging cohabitation between wildlife and human society. I shudder to think what kind of impact Manhattan has on the natural ecology of Manhattan.

Having a car based lifestyle in of itself doesn't mean that the environment cannot be preserved.

[dante2308]

Originally Posted by atl2phx

since, this is a beltline thread, i assumed that's what we're talking about, but i'm not sure if we're on the same topic.

the beltline covers almost 10% of the city of atlanta's land area, it's not a few square miles.

you'll have to shed more light on your list of community redevelopment initiatives that you believe should receive more focus and funding over the beltline, but keep in mind, the beltline is/will be (for the most part) funded from specific TAD's that wouldn't be relevant to most other projects.

I do wonder how those TADs are doing post recession.

[reet]

Originally Posted by dante2308

Oddly enough it would seem that Atlanta's environmental impact is atypical for such sprawl. I think there are several communities including the one I live in that have embraced the value of preserving nature and reducing the impact by actually reducing density and encouraging cohabitation between wildlife and human society. I shudder to think what kind of impact Manhattan has on the natural ecology of Manhattan.

It's great to see communities in Atlanta value the environment, and I'm very happy to live in a city that has such a strong commitment to LEED guidelines with new construction. But small pockets of natural areas within the larger sprawl of the built environment -- with all of its requisite infrastructure -- do not make up a healthy ecosystem for native plants and animals.

Biologist Olivia Judson wrote just this week about the way that we divide the ecosystem so heavily diminishes vital biodiversity.

Originally Posted by dante2308

Having a car based lifestyle in of itself doesn't mean that the environment cannot be preserved.

I disagree or the grounds that personal car ownership is so widespread in our culture. I won't argue that bus or train transit is a perfect solution, but serving the needs of the number of personal cars owned now requires an amount of pavement that is very harmful to the ecosystem in an unsustainable way given trends for population growth.

The argument that our car-based lifestyle is not harmful to the environment to a completely unacceptable degree would hold more weight if there was zero or negative population growth. But that just isn't the trend. We need a transportation system that embraces a diversity of transit methods in order to create sustainable growth patterns that protect the environment

[dante2308]

Interesting. From an environmental perspective, Georgia itself is mostly covered in forested area and the actual total size of the developed area is a small fraction of the size of the state. The article you posted isn't really referring to USA style environmental protection. Here endangered species are protected fiercely to the point that we'd sooner run out of water than sacrifice the rare muscle population downstream the Chattahoochee. I am quite pleased to say that the US is nowhere near overpopulated and Atlanta happens to be the only city of it's size within 550 miles.

I would like to share with you a thought on the concept of mass transit. Did you know that a highway system is a mode of transportation where a large number of people can travel a very large distance with the minimal impact on the surroundings per vehicle? While car ownership is never considered mass transit, the presence of a highway system reduces the amount of pavement by shifting a large number of people onto a relativity small strip of land.

I think it is a matter of degree. Yes, a railway takes up less ground space per person transported than a road because cars are larger than people, but at the same time, railways are less efficient than personal transport. If what we are worried about is the ecosystem, then the calculation is simple. We do not build up to the point where the ecosystem is actually threatened. Then we move to alternative and less efficient forms of transportation as the need arises.

Put simply, we place an urban growth limit on the city. Not an arbitrary one to encourage more density or a pro-transit agenda, but one with the environment as the limiting factor. Wherever that line is. If the 28 county region can support 9 million people in automobiles without threatening extinction or even the viability of species in the state then by all means, go for it. If that line is 6 million or even three million, then the increased land values, property taxes and housing costs that come with density are justified.

I think pre-1950 Georgia was extremely underpopulated and I think we are a bit of a way from overpopulation. Currently the tiny dense nodes in the city are there by matter of personal choice rather than necessity and serve only the smallest fraction of the population.

The Beltline is fine and making dense areas is fine, but it isn't somehow morally superior and it isn't at the point where everyone has to embrace that sort of lifestyle at this point. I rather like living closer to nature than the city.

[reet]

Originally Posted by dante2308

Did you know that a highway system is a mode of transportation where a large number of people can travel a very large distance with the minimal impact on the surroundings per vehicle?

Originally Posted by dante2308

...the presence of a highway system reduces the amount of pavement by shifting a large number of people onto a relativity small strip of land.

These are bold claims. I'm willing to stay open minded, but I'll need to see convincing data to believe they're true.

Originally Posted by dante2308

If what we are worried about is the ecosystem, then the calculation is simple. We do not build up to the point where the ecosystem is actually threatened. Then we move to alternative and less efficient forms of transportation as the need arises.

Put simply, we place an urban growth limit on the city. Not an arbitrary one to encourage more density or a pro-transit agenda, but one with the environment as the limiting factor. Wherever that line is. If the 28 county region can support 9 million people in automobiles without threatening extinction or even the viability of species in the state then by all means, go for it. If that line is 6 million or even three million, then the increased land values, property taxes and housing costs that come with density are justified.

I won't advocate density for it's own sake, but I will advocate compact land use for the sake of reducing the land space taken up by the built environment in light of population growth.

Obviously, we have different ideas about what level of residential, commercial and infrastructure development is harmful to the environment. Georgia is covered in forested area, but too much of it is compromised by sprawling development subdividing and fragmenting the forests and hindering the existence of native plants and animals.

From the New Georgia Encyclopedia section on Land Use Change and Habitat Loss:

"Urban and suburban development has contributed greatly to habitat loss in Georgia. From 1992 to 1997 approximately 1,053,200 acres in Georgia were converted from open space to developed land; this represents the third largest loss of undeveloped acreage in the nation...the long-term effects of habitat fragmentation on populations can include higher levels of parasitism or predation, increased competition from "weedy" species, reduced genetic diversity, and greater vulnerability to natural catastrophes. In other words, those populations not wiped out directly by habitat destruction are often left weakened and vulnerable from habitat fragmentation."

Originally Posted by dante2308

I rather like living closer to nature than the city.

I respect that preference. I lived next to one of the Chattahoochee River parks for several years and absolutely loved it. I got a great amount of joy out of it and I understand the desire to live near nature.

I won't argue that my stance is morally superior and I apologize if I gave that impression. My beliefs about protecting nature are represented by the common EcoUrbanist motto: "if you want to take good care of the environment, stay away from it and live in cities." Basically: keep our built environment as compact as possible for the sake of preserving connected (unfragmented) land space for the natural ecosystem.

[echinatl]

"Peak Oil", I think it's safe to say prices are going to continue to climb, and maybe climb drasticly after 2014/2015. I look at public transit as a way to shield us from sticker shock.

[dante2308]

I disagree. Peak oil is actually probably behind us. Right now demand is far lower than supply. Here is a report you may find interesting:

The US Commerce Department said the trade gap was a seasonally adjusted $37.3bn (£24.9bn), 6.6% lower than the revised December figure of $39.9bn.

Imports dropped 1.7%, with crude oil imports at their weakest level since February 1999, at 245 million barrels.

I think the shock of $147 barrels of oil radically changed the outlook for oil consumption. Our outlook for oil consumption in 2016 is actually drastically lower than it is today.

Transit is not the "only" method to combat peak oil. The technology exists for cars to have nothing to do with oil in the first place.

[dante2308]

reet, yesterday I looked up the endangered or threatened species in Georgia. In terms of mammals, there are only 5 and three of which are in the ocean. The other two are bats that have nothing to do with sprawl. Same story with birds. 3 out of 4 are coastal breeds and the fourth is a woodpecker that lost habitat due to new trees encroaching and fire. 7/8 endangered or threatened reptiles are coastal breeds... the 8th lives in rural south Georgia.

I'm sensing that our coastlines are where the danger is. I'm for protecting them, I just don't see how Atlanta or pavement is causing any of this from the list.

One quick note it seems that almost all the fish that are endangered or threatened are so because of dam construction. Maybe we should consider an alternate method of obtaining water.

[echinatl]

Originally Posted by dante2308

I disagree. Peak oil is actually probably behind us. Right now demand is far lower than supply. Here is a report you may find interesting:



I think the shock of $147 barrels of oil radically changed the outlook for oil consumption. Our outlook for oil consumption in 2016 is actually drastically lower than it is today.

Transit is not the "only" method to combat peak oil. The technology exists for cars to have nothing to do with oil in the first place.

Any data that shows peak oil is behind us from a global perspective? I'm not as concerned with US consumption as I am with India's, China's and maybe someday Africa's. I actually just read this today: http://green.autoblog.com/2010/03/18/kuwaiti-study-conventional-oil-to-peak-in-2014/ From what I've read we're near a peak when it comes to easy to pull out of the ground oil. There is a ton of oil out there, it just costs more to get it depending on how hard it is to get to. I have no doubt there is technology out there to make cars not reliant on gas, but it takes a long time to get everyone switched over to the new tech, the same with building alternative methods of transit such as rail. It takes time to build it. Also what if Iran goes crazy and oil shoots back up to 4-5 bucks a gallon. It just seems that it makes sense to get started on some of these other projects BEFORE we're in emergency mode.

[dante2308]

Other countries are subject to the same market pressures we are. If oil gets expensive they will have no choice but to diversify. I came back from Jamaica recently and they are aggressively pursuing alternative energy.

China is certainly making investments and global oil demand is still lower than in 2008 according to the data. The US reducing consumption has a BIG effect on the total picture not only because we have a market share but because the automobile industry is focused on our demand structure.

[echinatl]

Originally Posted by dante2308

Other countries are subject to the same market pressures we are. If oil gets expensive they will have no choice but to diversify. I came back from Jamaica recently and they are aggressively pursuing alternative energy.

China is certainly making investments and global oil demand is still lower than in 2008 according to the data. The US reducing consumption has a BIG effect on the total picture not only because we have a market share but because the automobile industry is focused on our demand structure.

Well we're in a global recession, and hopefully getting out. That is going to cut demand, it's surprising that it's only lower than 2008 levels, I thought it would be much more. You have to admit it's scary how high the cost of regular is considering the economy (ours and the worlds) isn't back up to speed and is still in the gutter. Also, after 5 quarters of lower demand, there was in increase in Q4 2009, and I've read demand will continue to increase through 2010. We do have a big effect on the total picture, but we will soon no longer have the biggest effect. In 2008 China INCREASED oil imports by 12%. They also just passed us as the largest oil importer from Saudi Arabia, and they passed us in highest car sales. I'm just saying that these market pressures you speak of might not be pressuring other countries like you would expect. With China buying more cars than the US, and the purchase gap expected to rise dramatically, how long will the auto industry focus on our demand structure?

[echinatl]

Also I just remembered China subsidizes the price of gas, so they pay less than we do. And on top of that, I see this! http://i.imgur.com/2KwfT.jpg

[dante2308]

China's communism is really getting in the way of the process, but yet they still say they are trying to combat oil consumption. Perhaps when their envoy arrives next week we can convince them to stop manipulating their currency and subsidizing their gas so that they aren't ruining the game for the rest of the world.

I don't think I'm going to like China as a world leader if every bit of growth comes as a result of unfair and artificial advantages and at the expense of the rest of the world.

However, the US still consumes about three times as much gasoline as China so we are still the big game in town and thats not going to change overnight. Staying on the topic of China, the country's one child policy is now reaching a hilt as their laborforce is expected to peak in the next few years and their age structure is expected to skew older very rapidly. I'm not sure how they expect to deal with this. Usually such a thing means an inevitable and permanent depression and deflation.

Once you're in population decline, it's game over. There is no law, incentive, or plan that can fix it.

[cybele]

Originally Posted by dante2308

However, the US still consumes about three times as much gasoline as China so we are still the big game in town and thats not going to change overnight.

Well what I don't get is why people don't spend more time worrying about making the automobile better instead of acting like the HSR light rail thing is the dadgum salvation of mankind. If you think about it the automobile is just about the perfect transportation system in some ways since it let's people get up and go where they want to when they need to go. Instead of trying to force a whole slew of them down one single track to the same place at one time.

Now here's a fella who's thinking ahead. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, since we've already got all these fine roads that are bought and paid for. Just get a better baby and so forth.

Reinventing the Automobile: Personal Urban Mobility for the 21st Century

[atl2phx]

Originally Posted by cybele

Well what I don't get is why people don't spend more time worrying about making the automobile better instead of acting like the HSR light rail thing is the dadgum salvation of mankind. If you think about it the automobile is just about the perfect transportation system in some ways since it let's people get up and go where they want to when they need to go. Instead of trying to force a whole slew of them down one single track to the same place at one time.
Now here's a fella who's thinking ahead. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, since we've already got all these fine roads that are bought and paid for. Just get a better baby and so forth.

Reinventing the Automobile: Personal Urban Mobility for the 21st Century

jesus christ....would you give it a effing break?

you're the only one here that's rehashing the same old line like you're stuck on replay.

NO ONE, and i repeat NO ONE, has EVER made the declaration on this thread that "the dadgum light rail thingy dingy" is the "silver bullet" or "salvation of mankind".

on the contray, your continued postings (which are rehashed from the same crap you said the day before) are overly dramatic and they're basically trolling comments.....this is a thread about the beltline.

NO ONE is advocating light rail, the beltline or any other form of alternate transit be run down every street, the project is what it is.....a 22 mile loop of transit so give it a fucking break. there are those of us who advocate and support alternate modes of transportation....if you don't agree....let it be.

we ALL get your position....it's T I R E D.

[cybele]

Well I am sorry. But don't forget a whole bunch of other people got off on the car thing first.

[dante2308]

Originally Posted by atl2phx

jesus christ....would you give it a effing break?

you're the only one here that's rehashing the same old line like you're stuck on replay.

NO ONE, and i repeat NO ONE, has EVER made the declaration on this thread that "the dadgum light rail thingy dingy" is the "silver bullet" or "salvation of mankind".

on the contray, your continued postings (which are rehashed from the same crap you said the day before) are overly dramatic and they're basically trolling comments.....this is a thread about the beltline.

NO ONE is advocating light rail, the beltline or any other form of alternate transit be run down every street, the project is what it is.....a 22 mile loop of transit so give it a fucking break. there are those of us who advocate and support alternate modes of transportation....if you don't agree....let it be.

we ALL get your position....it's T I R E D.

I know this was directed at cybele, but for the record I support transit, the Beltline, and high speed rail in case that wasn't clear. My point is that it isn't a zero sum game was we should approach this with a focus on what is best, not what is ideologically pure.

I would rather talk about a comprehensive plan in the transit thread. On the Beltline I will say that I support the community's will to create it and I do not support the overreach from the GDOT.

Speaking directly to you atlphx, there isn't a need to segregate the conversations and because someone isn't anti-car doesn't mean that they aren't pro-transit or alternate means of transportation. Each mode has a place and a use and each mode has room for improvement. I wont tell you that you have to acknowledge that, but I am more than a little tired of people treating car drivers as if they are an unmitigated evil. You are taking 1990's urbanism way beyond its purpose and its time.

Between 1990 and 2010 the world changed quite a bit. It is time to reevaluate our urban theories and plan for 2020 and 2030 instead of treating people who's ideas evolve as demons to be exiled.

Also for the record I'm as liberal as they come.

[atl2phx]

Originally Posted by dante2308

I know this was directed at cybele, but for the record I support transit, the Beltline, and high speed rail in case that wasn't clear. My point is that it isn't a zero sum game was we should approach this with a focus on what is best, not what is ideologically pure.

I would rather talk about a comprehensive plan in the transit thread. On the Beltline I will say that I support the community's will to create it and I do not support the overreach from the GDOT.

Speaking directly to you atlphx, there isn't a need to segregate the conversations and because someone isn't anti-car doesn't mean that they aren't pro-transit or alternate means of transportation. Each mode has a place and a use and each mode has room for improvement. I wont tell you that you have to acknowledge that, but I am more than a little tired of people treating car drivers as if they are an unmitigated evil. You are taking 1990's urbanism way beyond its purpose and its time.

Between 1990 and 2010 the world changed quite a bit. It is time to reevaluate our urban theories and plan for 2020 and 2030 instead of treating people who's ideas evolve as demons to be exiled.

Also for the record I'm as liberal as they come.

agreed; mode of transportation (car vs. all other) is not a zero sum game. i will add, however, that i haven't seen any beltline advocates suggest that the solution is all transit at the expense of all cars. conversely, that's exactly how i think the argument is being framed when i see comments like "light rail ain't no silver bullet" over and over again as if the encroachment of transit and transit riders will cannibalize roads and driving options for car drivers. that's a strange position to take when the automobile is clearly dominant in atlanta.

atlanta is still projected to be one of the fastest growing metros in the u.s. for some time to come. wouldn't you agree that properly managed growth requires some advance planning? wouldn't you also agree that in addition to resource management, affordability and a healthy job market that a balanced mix of transit options creates a healthy balance for a global city?

i'll never buy the idea as cybele once suggested that atlanta, being so auto-centric, is possibly ahead of the curve because petro prices are declining and transit ridership has stabilized. sure, cars may be the most efficient means of quickly getting from point A to point B, but as the atlanta metro adds another 1MM, another 2MM or another 5MM additional residents that option becomes decreasingly less attractive. you cannot build enough roads to support that volume.....even the peer lagging GDOT admits as much in their forecast models.

so, i find it odd that here we are, many of us transit advocates, and we're getting framed as being maniacally against cars and singularly pro mass transit when that's simply not the case. we're simply urban advocates favoring the underdog of alternate transit. and by the way, it's not about coolness, it's about sustaining increasingly dense communities.

for the record, i LOVE the car......i love the speed, i love the thrust, i love torque, i love the engineering, i love marveling at new models and new technology and i love the nostalgia of car history.....there's nothing i'd like more than a garage full of late 60's early 70's classic american muscle cars.

i advocate balance.

[shivtim]

A few upcoming Beltline events:

Stanton Park Groundbreaking Ceremony
Join Mayor Kasim Reed, Councilmember Carla Smith, Friends of Peoplestown Parks, Atlanta BeltLine, Inc. and The BeltLine Partnership as we celebrate the groundbreaking of Stanton Park with residents of the Peoplestown community and surrounding neighborhoods.
When: Saturday, March 27, 2010, 10am
Where: Stanton Park, in the Peoplestown neighborhood on Martin Street in southeast Atlanta.
This event is free and open to the public.

Skate Park Celebration
The local skateboarding community is joining the City of Atlanta and the Atlanta BeltLine in commemorating Atlanta's first skate park, Foundation Skate Park, and celebrating the groundbreaking of its newest skate park being developed as part of the Atlanta BeltLine project. Activities will include skateboarding, contests, food, music and more. The event will raise funds to cover additional park features, and will be the last official event at the location before construction begins on converting Foundation Skate Park into a safe, free-of-charge space for youth from across the City of Atlanta to explore and develop their passion for skateboarding.
When: Saturday, April 3, 12pm - 5pm
Where: Foundation Skate Park, located just past the WSB-TV tower at 766 Willoughby Way NE, Atlanta

Live Art for the BeltLine
Please join us in supporting Art on the BeltLine during an evening behind the shoulder of local visual artists at work and front row for local musicians on stage. With a portion of the proceeds benefitting Art on the BeltLine, this evening will support both local artists and urban development. The event will feature music from:
Fader Vixen
Sundrop Synthesis
Tracer Metula
Silent and Listen

And painting by:
Jennifer Birdson

Kris Coker
Jay Davis
Emer
Joseph F. Herring
When: April 16, from 8 p.m. to midnight
Where: Eyedrum, 290 Martin Luther King, Jr. Drive SE
Admission: $5 at the door

Atlanta Earth Day BeltLine Clean-Up
This Earth Day, GET CONNECTED by joining in a City-wide BeltLine cleanup. Join other volunteers and lend a hand for Earth Day to pick up trash, tires, debris and remove invasive plants along the BeltLine from Montgomery Ferry Road to Westminster Drive.
When: April 17, 8am - 1pm
Where: Meet at Ansley Mall at 8am

2010 BeltLine Bike Tour
Follow completed and proposed sections of the Atlanta BeltLine on your bike. Four routes of varying distances are punctuated with educational stops where participants will learn about BeltLine developments and local history, and the project's potential to impact the City.
When: April 25 from 1 p.m. to 6 p.m. Registration begins at noon.
Where: Riders will gather at the start location at Grady High School (8th St. parking lot)
Why: This ride is a fundraiser to support the programs and activities of the Atlanta Bicycle Coalition.

[cybele]

Originally Posted by atl2phx

for the record, i LOVE the car......i love the speed, i love the thrust, i love torque, i love the engineering, i love marveling at new models and new technology and i love the nostalgia of car history.....there's nothing i'd like more than a garage full of late 60's early 70's classic american muscle cars.

Well, there's supposed to be some big museum situation on cars going on but we haven't seen it yet.

I agree with you and Dante on the balance thing, you've got to have plenty of this, that and the other.