Canadian ethnicity, immigration, housing etc.

[Capsicum]

It's notable that Toronto, unlike most US cities is really evenly split between origins of Spanish speakers -- there's Colombians, Chileans, and other south Americans, Salvadoreans, and people from Spain itself.

There's not the trend of over-representation of Spanish speakers based on geographical proximity as in the US, where countries closer geographically are more represented (Mexicans, Cubans, Dominicans).

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Docere

Colombians are the largest Spanish-speaking immigrant group in Toronto, though no group really dominates that population.

Yes, Colombians have been coming in moderate numbers for the past twenty years. I wonder whether the intake numbers have started to decline with the improvements in the security situation down there?

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

A higher percentage of Latin American Canadians identify as non-white compared to Hispanic Americans (where it's about half)?

Originally Posted by Docere

Not really an "apples" comparison though. The US census has a race question and a Hispanic origin question. If they were combined I suspect there would be a lot fewer "white" responses.

I'm almost certain that the small Mexican population in Canada is much "whiter" than the Mexican American population.

But the Mexican population is also a smaller share of Latin American Canadians so, if Colombians, Salvadoreans, Chileans, all of which identify as visible minority at rates of over 50%, make up more of the Canadian share, wouldn't it be possible that on the net, more Latin American Canadians are than their US counterparts?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Pretty sad that an important article highlighting the bigotry in Quebec against racial minorities, Muslims and indigenous peoples gets tucked into a larger thread so it can easily be ignored.

It's not getting ignored at all here, if you pay attention to the media you will be aware that the provincial PM and his team keep reminding us how racist and unwelcoming we are every occasion he gets. (Probably got something to do with why ~85% of francophone Québécois intend to vote against the Liberals this fall.)

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

But the Mexican population is also a smaller share of Latin American Canadians so, if Colombians, Salvadoreans, Chileans, all of which identify as visible minority at rates of over 50%, make up more of the Canadian share, wouldn't it be possible that on the net, more Latin American Canadians are than their US counterparts?

I don't think "Latin American VM" and "Hispanic origin" data is directly comparable, which I've explained in a previous post.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

That Spanish is the fourth most spoken non-official language in Toronto after the two Chinese languages and Punjabi seems to be something that might be surprising to some Torontonians at first glance, since Spain and Latin America aren't as on the radar as many other immigrant place origins.

Languages like Italian, Greek, etc. that are less spoken in the city than Spanish seem more played up and more in the limelight to more Torontonians.

Maybe because Spanish presence in the city is a bit newer?

One thing I'd point out is that Hindi and Urdu are two different standardized varieties of the same language. The underlying language is often referred to as Hindustani, and that would be the third most spoken language at home. They are mutually intelligible and in their ordinary spoken form indistinguishable.

Also worth noting that many speakers of other languages of India and Pakistan tend to know Hindustani.

[Docere]

Birthplace, Spanish-speaking countries, Toronto CMA:

Colombia 18,080
Mexico 13,230
El Salvador 11,420
Ecuador 11,390
Peru 8,470
Argentina 8,345
Venezuela 7,485
Chile 7,355
Cuba 5,635

[Docere]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

One thing I'd point out is that Hindi and Urdu are two different standardized varieties of the same language. The underlying language is often referred to as Hindustani, and that would be the third most spoken language at home.

Also worth noting that many speakers of other languages of India and Pakistan tend to know Hindustani.

The separation is a political one to a very large degree (Hindi for Indians, Urdu for Pakistanis).

[Docere]

TO's South Asian community isn't Punjabi-dominated like it is out west.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

It's not about immigration -- it's also about visible minorities (many of whom were born here), indigenous peoples (who are not immigrants, surprisingly enough) and Muslims (who are not all immigrants).

Right, in Canada, it seems like a lot of reporting on diversity, immigration conflates "immigrant" and "visible minority". You often hear them used interchangeably in articles, news reports etc. Issues and policies that affect immigrants are assumed sometimes to apply to visible minorities more generally, and vice versa.

In the US, it feels like "racial minority" and "immigrant" are more clearly separated and not conflated (probably because of the larger homegrown minority population). Policies and issues that apply to racial minorities are discussed far more separately and apart from immigration and first-generation American issues.

Yes, most immigrants are racial minorities in Canada and the US alike. But there are some issues that only apply to mostly first-generation Canadians, such as cultural assimilation issues, need for English-language services, etc., citizenship issues, that need to be discussed conceptually as separate from issues that affect visible minorities and racialized people regardless of immigration and generational status, for example, discrimination based on appearance, employment issues, poverty etc.

Conflating immigrant and minority sometimes has the effect of making it seem like the problems of racism/discrimination only apply for the first generation, ignoring issues of racialization that influence social mobility, regardless of generational status.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Docere

The separation is a political one to a very large degree

Something also happened between this census and the previous one, to the Chinese languages, so that before lots of people put just "Chinese" and now they don't.

Maybe there's something also political between Chinese, Cantonese and Mandarin going on there.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Docere

TO's South Asian community isn't Punjabi-dominated like it is out west.

Still more Punjabi dominated than most North American south Asian communities. The heavy Sri Lankan presence in the eastern end probably reduces the Punjabi dominance of the GTA, which is mostly of the western end.

It's interesting how the South Asian community in Toronto is split between an eastern and western community -- the eastern dominated by Sri Lankan Tamils and maybe some others like Indo-Caribbean, and the western dominated by Punjabis, but also other south Asians from the subcontinent. Which one came first?

[Docere]

Punjabis/Sikhs. I remember in the early 1980s that Malton already had a visible Sikh presence, even if that's dwarfed by what there is in Malton/Brampton today. Sri Lankan Tamils mostly came in the 1990s fleeing civil war.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Still more Punjabi dominated than most North American south Asian communities. The heavy Sri Lankan presence in the eastern end probably reduces the Punjabi dominance of the GTA, which is mostly of the western end.

It's interesting how the South Asian community in Toronto is split between an eastern and western community -- the eastern dominated by Sri Lankan Tamils and maybe some others like Indo-Caribbean, and the western dominated by Punjabis, but also other south Asians from the subcontinent. Which one came first?

Compared to the US, yes. Immigration policy is different. Outside NYC South Asians are overwhelmingly upper middle class Indian Hindus.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Docere

Punjabis/Sikhs. I remember in the early 1980s that Malton already had a visible Sikh presence, even if that's dwarfed by what there is in Malton/Brampton today. Sri Lankan Tamils mostly came in the 1990s fleeing civil war.

Sri Lankans came after that part of Scarborough/Agincourt nearby to the west already became Chinese?

[Capsicum]

I think, if I'm not mistaken, closer to the old city, Flemingdon Park's South Asian community is just a bit older than either (either the Brampton/Mississauga suburban western GTA, or suburban Scarborough eastern GTA).

I believe some South Asians, albeit a really tiny population then, already started to occupy some apartment blocks then already when they were still new in the 1970s. I think some South Asians were already living in tower blocks in North York/East York prior to the shift to the large suburban Brampton/Mississauga/northwestern Toronto living style.

[Docere]

Yes. I think Agincourt was already very Chinese by the 1980s.

It's interesting that there's really "two Scarboroughs." There's Chinese-dominated Agincourt, and the rest which is much more multicultural (Sri Lankan, Caribbean, Filipino and the like).

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Docere

Yes. I think Agincourt was already very Chinese by the 1980s.

It's interesting that there's really "two Scarboroughs." There's Chinese-dominated Agincourt, and the rest which is much more multicultural (Sri Lankan, Caribbean, Filipino and the like).

Most of Scarborough was pretty Anglo/British Isles prior to either though, right? I recall hearing there were some racial tensions and unease (and later repeated in the 90s when it spilled over to Markham around the time Pacific Mall was being built) when Agincourt became Chinese in the 80s. Maybe the Chinese were the first major large visible minority group in Scarborough to provoke such a reaction, and the more multicultural part of Scarborough came after people were a bit more used to diversity (or after people uncomfortable with the diversity already left).

Which also raises the question (kind of relating to my city discussions forum question about non-American "white flight") of whether Scarborough's changing demography in the 70s/80s/90s could ever be said to be an example of "white flight"? Some element of it almost evokes the US-style definition -- a white, middle class area becoming a racial minority-heavy, working class area, and hushed discussion about the "old timers" not wanting to live there anymore because of "those other people".

[Capsicum]

Just a bit over a decade ago, this article in "Toronto Life" was written, portraying Scarborough in a very, well unflattering, light. This article pretty much uses many of the talking points that would be used to describe the results of "white flight" in US cities, to describe Scarborough.

https://torontolife.com/city/the-scarborough-curse/

"How did boring, white-bread Scarberia become Scarlem—a mess of street gangs, firebombings and stabbings? Portrait of Toronto’s unluckiest suburb"

[Docere]

That was such a stupid piece. Some people want to project these fantasies of Scarborough being this area of gangland shootings, our version of the Bronx or Compton - when it's really our "Queens."