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  #1381  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2019, 11:57 PM
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The NDP need to return to their roots as champions of social democracy if they want to thrive going forward. As ssiguy pointed out (when he wasn't railing against turbans), the Trudeau Liberals are doing a better job at being a centre-left platitude party while the Greens are becoming increasingly proficient as left-wing generalists. The social democratic niche, however remains the NDP's if they are willing to embrace it again.

I disagree with the assertion that the potential base for such a party is dead. Key social democratic platform components like a living wage, labour rights, pharmacare, affordable housing, and enhancing the social safety net are all capable of garnering broad support if communicated effectively. Part of the picture here of course is the leadership situation - the NDP need to find a charismatic leader capable of championing the cause and I'm not sure who within the fold would make a good choice at the moment. I'm not very optimistic at their immediate prospects in 2019 but if they end up holding the balance of power in a minority government situation, that would be a win in my books.
The Working Class is dying a slow, painful death and who speaks for them? Look South - Trump? Really? A (sort of) Republican? This is a massive failure for the Left.

It's the NDP's only hope of ever being relevant again. Not easy but it's worth a shot IMO.
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  #1382  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 12:26 AM
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It's their only hope of being relevant. The Working Class is dying a slow, painful death and who speaks for them? Look South - Trump? Really? A (sort of) Republican? This is a massive failure for the Left.
True. The problem is more cultural than anything else, though. While the left has shifted its focus to "social justice" and identity politics, it's mostly left behind your average guy or gal trying to make a living at a blue-collar or service job who likely doesn't spend much mind time thinking about pronouns and "systemic racism against people of colour." Meanwhile, the brave activists working to dismantle the white male cis-hetero patriarchy tend to blanch at the possibility of getting misgendered cooties from the unwoke masses.

Interesting how the sands of time have shifted things for us Canadian centre-leftists who came of age in the second half of the 20th century. We haven't changed; we want things like our healthcare untainted by the vagaries of the free market, but we also want the free market to be governed with just the right regulatory touch to allow for enough economic opportunity while guarding against rapacious damage to the social, economic and ecological environment.

It can be a tricky thing to manage, but really, when you think about it, it's the only way that really works. So are we relics, or are we some of the last remaining sane people out there?

It's not a specious question in the age of Trump.
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  #1383  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce View Post
The Working Class is dying a slow, painful death and who speaks for them? Look South - Trump? Really? A (sort of) Republican? This is a massive failure for the Left.

It's the NDP's only hope of ever being relevant again. Not easy but it's worth a shot IMO.
Did the working class abandon the left or the left abandon the working class?

Andrea Horwath tried a working class friendly platform in 2014. She did well in traditional working class ridings but got killed in the GTA.
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  #1384  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 12:29 AM
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True. The problem is more cultural than anything else, though. While the left has shifted its focus to "social justice" and identity politics, it's mostly left behind your average guy or gal trying to make a living at a blue-collar or service job who likely doesn't spend much mind time thinking about pronouns and "systemic racism against people of colour." Meanwhile, the brave activists working to dismantle the white male cis-hetero patriarchy tend to blanch at the possibility of getting misgendered cooties from the unwoke masses.

Interesting how the sands of time have shifted things for us Canadian centre-leftists who came of age in the second half of the 20th century. We haven't changed; we want things like our healthcare untainted by the vagaries of the free market, but we also want the free market to be governed with just the right regulatory touch to allow for enough economic opportunity while guarding against rapacious damage to the social, economic and ecological environment.

It can be a tricky thing to manage, but really, when you think about it, it's the only way that really works. So are we relics, or are we some of the last remaining sane people out there?

It's not a specious question in the age of Trump.
Good post!

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are we some of the last remaining sane people out there?
Sadly, yes........
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  #1385  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 12:33 AM
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Andrea Horwath tried a working class friendly platform in 2014. She did well in traditional working class ridings but got killed in the GTA.
That's because there are no working people in the GTA.

The GTA is a hive of neo-liberal SJW's, fresh out of indoctrination camp at Ryerson and the U of T, concerned only with identity politics and intent on class warfare with the old line patriarchy.............
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  #1386  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
That's because there are no working people in the GTA.

The GTA is a hive of neo-liberal SJW's, fresh out of indoctrination camp at Ryerson and the U of T, concerned only with identity politics and intent on class warfare with the old line patriarchy.............
You mean Toronto Proper? 905s are of people that have amassed a lot of wealth and only want to preserve them.
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  #1387  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 12:56 AM
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You mean Toronto Proper? 905s are of people that have amassed a lot of wealth and only want to preserve them.
You're right - my apologies.
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  #1388  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 1:12 AM
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True. The problem is more cultural than anything else, though. While the left has shifted its focus to "social justice" and identity politics, it's mostly left behind your average guy or gal trying to make a living at a blue-collar or service job who likely doesn't spend much mind time thinking about pronouns and "systemic racism against people of colour." Meanwhile, the brave activists working to dismantle the white male cis-hetero patriarchy tend to blanch at the possibility of getting misgendered cooties from the unwoke masses.

Interesting how the sands of time have shifted things for us Canadian centre-leftists who came of age in the second half of the 20th century. We haven't changed; we want things like our healthcare untainted by the vagaries of the free market, but we also want the free market to be governed with just the right regulatory touch to allow for enough economic opportunity while guarding against rapacious damage to the social, economic and ecological environment.

It can be a tricky thing to manage, but really, when you think about it, it's the only way that really works. So are we relics, or are we some of the last remaining sane people out there?

It's not a specious question in the age of Trump.
You had me at hello.
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  #1389  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 1:18 AM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
That's because there are no working people in the GTA.

The GTA is a hive of neo-liberal SJW's, fresh out of indoctrination camp at Ryerson and the U of T, concerned only with identity politics and intent on class warfare with the old line patriarchy.............
You can’t be serious.
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  #1390  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 2:47 AM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
That's because there are no working people in the GTA.

The GTA is a hive of neo-liberal SJW's, fresh out of indoctrination camp at Ryerson and the U of T, concerned only with identity politics and intent on class warfare with the old line patriarchy.............
Huh, and I guess the Maritimes are full of bitter old white people with nothing more to do than wait for their next pogey cheque is going to arrive and wondering if it will cover beers at the Legion.
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  #1391  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 2:49 AM
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Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
True. The problem is more cultural than anything else, though. While the left has shifted its focus to "social justice" and identity politics, it's mostly left behind your average guy or gal trying to make a living at a blue-collar or service job who likely doesn't spend much mind time thinking about pronouns and "systemic racism against people of colour." Meanwhile, the brave activists working to dismantle the white male cis-hetero patriarchy tend to blanch at the possibility of getting misgendered cooties from the unwoke masses.
Race and gender based politics work pretty well for elites. In particular it is a way to construct distracting forms of privilege other than privilege through heredity (of wealth and connections, and even of economically desirable traits), which explains the lion's share of the difference in people's life outcomes.

Quote:
Interesting how the sands of time have shifted things for us Canadian centre-leftists who came of age in the second half of the 20th century. We haven't changed; we want things like our healthcare untainted by the vagaries of the free market, but we also want the free market to be governed with just the right regulatory touch to allow for enough economic opportunity while guarding against rapacious damage to the social, economic and ecological environment.
The scary thing is that this approach is working less and less even when it is applied.

Fundamentally we have an economy based on trading labour for the goods and services that people need to live. The market price of labour is dropping because of a combination of globalization and automation. I doubt the trend is going to reverse. The idea that we will retrain all the old truck drivers to become software engineers in the brave new world is fantasy.

We also have bad cost disease in a few sectors. Free trade has dropped the price of manufactured goods but instead of people here living dramatically better lives, certain sectors like health care, housing, and education have eaten up the gains (this problem seems to be even worse in the US).

We need to come up with ways for people to live well without working, while still encouraging people with higher value labour to continue to work. Part of this will probably involve distributing money to more people, even if they don't work, and part of it will have to involve keeping costs down by fixing industries.

Our government in Canada is moving at about 1/10 the speed of the global economy. Hopefully something will change but I'm not optimistic.
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  #1392  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 3:51 AM
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Huh, and I guess the Maritimes are full of bitter old white people with nothing more to do than wait for their next pogey cheque is going to arrive and wondering if it will cover beers at the Legion.
I may be a tad bitter, and I am old and white, and I do live in the Maritimes, but as a self employed professional, I am ineligible for pogey, and I only like beer in moderation. Furthermore, I have not been inside a Legion in at least 35 years.........
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  #1393  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 7:20 AM
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When people feel threatened by social change they eventually react by voting in more conservative minded governments to `return to the good old days when things were simpler` but of course it`s a fallacy as no such time has ever existed. There will always be swings in public opinion but the overall trend will always be social progress and liberalization.


What is new however is exemplified in modern Western Europe. The rise of the `alt-right` can seem somewhat unnerving but the reality on the ground is quite different. Of course most of it has to do with immigration and Muslims. It`s a backlash but, contrary to what the left-wing media likes to present, much of the base are quite socially liberal people.

The official left-wing that likes to call anyone against immigration racist has become completely detached from their once cherished values. Where once the left asked for tolerance they now ask for tolerance of the intolerant. Many in the new alt-right movement are thus women and sexual minorities...……….as the traditional left continues to ask society to accommodate the much more conservative new {mostly Muslim} immigrants, they see their hard fought rights at risk.
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  #1394  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 1:13 PM
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I may be a tad bitter, and I am old and white, and I do live in the Maritimes, but as a self employed professional, I am ineligible for pogey, and I only like beer in moderation. Furthermore, I have not been inside a Legion in at least 35 years.........
You're a crusty, old white man. Gross.

p.s. Love the Legion.
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  #1395  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 2:41 PM
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You're a crusty, old white man. Gross.
It is a cross I must bear.........

Whoops, I probably can't say anything like that. That phrase is literally dripping with Christian symbology!!!
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  #1396  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 2:42 PM
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Huh, and I guess the Maritimes are full of bitter old white people with nothing more to do than wait for their next pogey cheque is going to arrive and wondering if it will cover beers at the Legion.
Skin colour again...
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  #1397  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 3:02 PM
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Race and gender based politics work pretty well for elites. In particular it is a way to construct distracting forms of privilege other than privilege through heredity (of wealth and connections, and even of economically desirable traits), which explains the lion's share of the difference in people's life outcomes.

Ding ding ding ding!!

There's a lot of confusion on what the left supposedly is, and what it's focused on. The whole "SJW" thing stems more from the neoliberal centrist movement as a sop for progressives while obfuscating traditional issues of inequality and class.

The fact that so many people here conflate the left with social issues alone shows that it's working...
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  #1398  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 3:12 PM
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https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...wFx_8tfZ3qK_tI

I was gonna post this in the Highway thread but haljackey didn’t sit well with it last time, so I’d just leave this here.

Again, I can’t summarize it this time.
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  #1399  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 3:12 PM
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Did the working class abandon the left or the left abandon the working class?
.
Not sure which one you are advocating but this is how I see the evolution of the left side of politics.

In the beginning... (sorry)... the left was all about the little guys, working stiffs. With a handful of people from bourgeois classes who were sympathetic to their cause.

Over time, the left has drawn more and more from those in the educated classes with a social conscience. People like Bob Rae (sorry again, especially to Ontarians) exemplify the leftist with noble ideas who is from an affluent background.

But this component of the left has grown so much than on the one hand it has effectively squeezed out the little guys, and in the process also drawn an even larger share of the affluent classes who have tilted the left towards relatively cost-neutral causes (for them anyway) and away from traditional leftist preoccupations that might affect their bottom line. I suspect that in most cases this is not the result of deliberate machinations, but the end result is largely the same.

As the left evolves increasingly into an affluent people's club, it becomes less and less of a comfortable place for the little guys, who may sometimes have views about certain things that are anathemic for the effete crowd. That and they don't always know how to dress for the occasion and use nice silverware properly.

So my answer to this would be that it's the left that has left the working class.
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  #1400  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 3:37 PM
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I guess Ed Broadbent was the last NDP leader to have been from a truly working class background.
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