Ottawa Rapid Transit Network developments

[Kitchissippi]

I wonder if digging under Daly for a simpler route would make more sense to avoid old structural foundations and sensitive areas like the old train station and the War Memorial. It could also shorten the tunnel another 0.2 kilometres, and make cut and cover an option even under the canal.



Passageways to the Market could be integrated with the Rideau Centre expansion — my fantasy scenario would be a galleria type extension of William street from Rideau to Daly


(Galleria Vittorio Emanuele II, Milan, photofrom Viator)

[waterloowarrior]

with the Rideau Station moving over I wonder if they could have three CBD stations....

[MalcolmTucker]

^Not if they want to stay in budget.

[McC]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

with the Rideau Station moving over I wonder if they could have three CBD stations....

My browser crashed trying to type the same thing last night ;-)

A realigned downtown east station could be the one with access to the NAC in such a layout

[McC]

The image for the realigned Bayview Station shows a number of "existing stations" that do not, in fact, exist. I've pointed this curiosity out to the Councillor.

[eemy]

A few thoughts:

With the shift of the Rideau Stn east it becomes significantly less effective at serving the eastern edge of the CBD. I think this is probably acceptable when considering the trade-off is better service of the Market. I think one noticeable, possible beneficial effect will be that large crowds (Canada Day, Remembrance Day etc.) will be more likely to split between Rideau and Downtown East. Whereas they would almost all spill onto Rideau in the previous location. I would prefer three downtown stations, but I think then we'd run into the same problem they're trying to avoid with moving the Rideau Station (depth).

Regarding Bank Street - I too wonder if they couldn't just have an exit right on Bank Street instead of the current configuration a half a block away.

Shifting the Train station to the new location would only shorten the walk for people in the first/last cars of the train. It would also make it far less effective at serving the pedestrian crossing and any of the planned development on the other side of the Queensway. They might be able to get away with a cheaper station here though? I seem to recall something about requiring realignment through there.

With the Bayview Station being shifted, transfers become shorter, but it would become impossible to have service on the O-Train line eventually continue downtown as was originally conceived without having separate platforms at Bayview. Such an arrangement would be problematic for people heading downtown from Bayview as they wouldn't know which platform to use for the next train downtown. I think it's probably better to have the station closer to Wellington West though and not have the O-Train head downtown.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think it's probably better to have the station closer to Wellington West though and not have the O-Train head downtown.

Quoted for truth.

As for the shifted Rideau station, not needing a passenger concourse under the canal will save a fair amount of money. Having the support of the Rideau Centre / market merchants is a huge benefit that is likely worth the cost of not having the station one block south, despite the likely higher overall costs.

[McC]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

With the Bayview Station being shifted, transfers become shorter, but it would become impossible to have service on the O-Train line eventually continue downtown as was originally conceived without having separate platforms at Bayview. Such an arrangement would be problematic for people heading downtown from Bayview as they wouldn't know which platform to use for the next train downtown. I think it's probably better to have the station closer to Wellington West though and not have the O-Train head downtown.

An easy way to solve that problem, if/when the O-Train is converted to ELRT and extended downtown, is you drop Bayview station on that line altogether, move the transfer station to Lebreton, and add a station a little further south with entrances at Somerset W and the new Wellington W. Extension.

UPDATE: I don't take credit for this solution, as I believe that Darwin, and perhaps another contributor on this Forum (Kitchissippi, maybe?) have suggested it previously

[Dado]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

So the shitty connection between LRT underground, and trunk bus routes on Bank, is still on the drawing board?

Hopefully that can still be changed. Now that they appear to be moving the Rideau Station eastwards, there's an even more compelling case to add a third station downtown. They should move the East and West stations further in those directions and introduce an extra station at Bank Street.

Damn, it'd be nice if some people who use transit had some say in the design of our transit system.

Yes, well, that's not going to happen when potential planning recruits to OC Transpo are advised - unprompted - on the guest parking arrangements at OCT HQ but not how to get there by bus for their job interviews. Really. I should know - it happened to me. I swear I lost the job the moment I mentioned that I arrived by bus - a sort of stunned look greeted me across the table.

[S-Man]

I think the new Rideau station is much better where it is. You get off right at the entrance to the market and the Rideau Centre and it has more people in its catchment area than if it was at the NAC. Why not move the Downtown East station one block further east if there's a lack of service to the CBD. How far would people have to walk, though, even if they worked on Elgin - three blocks?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Dado

Hopefully that can still be changed.

A good time to change it would be any point in the past six years of planning this damn thing.

It was one of the loudest points made about downtown service during the sham consultations. Actual transit users' views don't count in this process. Never have. Never will.

Speaking of sham consulations, where is the interprovincial transit study?

[Dado]

Originally Posted by S-Man

I think the new Rideau station is much better where it is. You get off right at the entrance to the market and the Rideau Centre and it has more people in its catchment area than if it was at the NAC. Why not move the Downtown East station one block further east if there's a lack of service to the CBD. How far would people have to walk, though, even if they worked on Elgin - three blocks?

I agree that the new location for Rideau is, on the whole, better, but there is a cost to it, too.

The argument against moving the East Station eastwards is that it moves it further away from Bank.

The fundamental problem is that we are one station short downtown. Until now, that has been "excused" on the basis that the Rideau Station was going to serve a sort of double-duty by being accessible from both Elgin/NAC and the Rideau & Convention Centres. But with the eastward shift of Rideau Station to make it more accessible to the Byward Market and to lower construction costs, it is no longer nearly as accessible from Elgin/NAC, or indeed City Hall.

Moreover, it's not just walking distance that is an issue. We also have to consider passenger volumes and how well individual stations can handle those loads. Downtown East just got even busier than it already was going to be.

To properly serve downtown, we need that third station so that we can push the East and West stations further afield and better distribute pedestrian traffic. Just about everyone has been pointing this out, but it appears to continue to fall on deaf ears.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Dado

I agree that the new location for Rideau is, on the whole, better, but there is a cost to it, too.

The argument against moving the East Station eastwards is that it moves it further away from Bank.

The fundamental problem is that we are one station short downtown. Until now, that has been "excused" on the basis that the Rideau Station was going to serve a sort of double-duty by being accessible from both Elgin/NAC and the Rideau & Convention Centres. But with the eastward shift of Rideau Station to make it more accessible to the Byward Market and to lower construction costs, it is no longer nearly as accessible from Elgin/NAC, or indeed City Hall.

Moreover, it's not just walking distance that is an issue. We also have to consider passenger volumes and how well individual stations can handle those loads. Downtown East just got even busier than it already was going to be.

To properly serve downtown, we need that third station so that we can push the East and West stations further afield and better distribute pedestrian traffic. Just about everyone has been pointing this out, but it appears to continue to fall on deaf ears.

I don't think capacity will be big factors for the downtown stations. The capacity of a well designed station even with one entrance is well above the capacity of the line that we are building.

I think walking distance will be annoying for those who work on the edge of the cachement area but is unlikely to have much of an impact on ridership as most people don't have another choice. Ppeople do have a choice to drive to the market and the extra 200 meters could marginally make a difference there.

[eemy]

One concern of mine is that by building two stations downtown that are evenly spread to serve the entire CBD, we necessarily exclude a third station in the future. I wonder if they could shift the east station further eastward and leave space for a future Bank St. station. I'm not sure how viable such a strategy even is though. Can they excavate a station on an operating line?

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

One concern of mine is that by building two stations downtown that are evenly spread to serve the entire CBD, we necessarily exclude a third station in the future. I wonder if they could shift the east station further eastward and leave space for a future Bank St. station. I'm not sure how viable such a strategy even is though. Can they excavate a station on an operating line?

They would need to complete the station box at minimum, including most the platform and passenger concourse. You would only really be saving the access shafts, which you would have to expropriate anyways, and without building them you would have to mine out the station from a distant access point.

So you can, but you wouldn't save much money.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I don't think capacity will be big factors for the downtown stations. The capacity of a well designed station even with one entrance is well above the capacity of the line that we are building.

Why would you assume the station will be well-designed?

I think walking distance will be annoying for those who work on the edge of the cachement area but is unlikely to have much of an impact on ridership as most people don't have another choice.

And there you have in a nutshell the design and customer-service philosophy of Ottawa's transit planners.

[Richard Eade]

I am getting a bit worried as to how this project is turning out. Now the catchment area is:



Which has a fair amount of its area covering the Parliament Precinct and the Ottawa River. Moving the Rideau Station east actually seems like a good idea for a number of reasons, but it does leave the Downtown-east Station being the only real option for most of the CBD - and Downtown-east is quite north.

Since the decision has been made to have the tunnel aligned under one street across the downtown, maybe they should re-think which street it is under. By moving the tunnel under Slater, the route is more central. At the east end of Slater (at Elgin) the tunnel could – if there were political will – be curved under the new Lorne Building. Yes I realize that the foundation for that building is already designed, but it would be cheaper to build the change originally than tunnel later.



The idea is to move the tunnel closer to where people need it, provide a station access right at the corner of Bank, and add the 'missing' third station to service Confederation Square.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Why would you assume the station will be well-designed?

Good point. I was basing this opinion on my experience in other cities rather than any preliminary designs for stations.

And there you have in a nutshell the design and customer-service philosophy of Ottawa's transit planners.

In fairness to Ottawa this is pretty universal. Mass transit doesn't pay for itself which means it isn't users that pay for most of it but taxpayers. As such the first priority is cost and the second is attracting the most users (thus freeing up space on the roads for non-users). The experience of an individual user is usually the last consideration.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Since the decision has been made to have the tunnel aligned under one street across the downtown, maybe they should re-think which street it is under. By moving the tunnel under Slater, the route is more central.

It might be more central on paper, but ideally transit should be run where you can and want to promote pedestrian activity. The Queen Street alignment has more potential of a symbiotic relationship with Sparks Street and bringing life to downtown's shared spaces. Drawing concentric circles is a simplified methodology at best and has no contextual bearing, and the idea here is to aim for the heart not the navel.

[eemy]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

the idea here is to aim for the heart not the navel.

Excellent analogy and I totally agree with it.