Halifax Stadium Discussion

[fenwick16]

I have to agree that a Nussli style stadium is not nearly at the same level as the Winnipeg Blue Bombers Stadium. But there are some very expensive items in the Winnipeg Stadium that a Halifax area stadium will not require in order to host a CFL team such as:
1) my understanding is that the Winnipeg Stadium will contain a $45 million dollar recreation centre (as wespidel mentioned). Certainly a great feature but Halifax already has several recreation centres. This is probably included for the University of Manitoba students, not because it is required for a CFL team. So cut $45 million dollars from the cost.
2) Look at the roof - this is a massive structure (it looks like it extends out by about 100 feet) This roof must cost several million dollars. Halifax could get by with a much more modest roof. (not much more complex than the SMU stadium roof but over a greater circumference of the stadium).
3) Several levels of totally enclosed concourses. A great feature, but Halifax can build something simpler with only a couple of levels, and not totally enclosed.
4) I believe that I read that it will have washrooms and concessions distributed throughout the concourses. Another great feature, but would it hurt Haligonians to walk an extra 100 feet to washrooms centralized in a few areas of the stadium?
5) It has endzone seating sections on tracks than can be moved (reference - Thurmas). Again not required to host CFL games.
6) Having several seating tiers will mean that there will be many more custom make components (risers, rakers, etc.). To reduce the cost, the variety of such components should be minimized.

The Winnipeg Stadium financers (mainly the province of Manitoba taxpayers) are sparing almost no expense, but how much more will fans enjoy the games because of it? The Montreal Molson Stadium is much simpler than the Winnipeg Stadium and it seems to be a popular venue. Likewise with the Calgary McMahon Stadium which has been a good CFL venue and is a much more basic (but solid) structure.

I think it is fair to focus more on the stadiums such as the Montreal Molson Stadium and Calgary McMahon Stadium. In the long term, Halifax has a chance to match those stadiums.

I don't want to pretend that I am an expert on construction, but based on 18 months of almost obsessive study of stadium construction styles, I feel that Halifax can build a very sturdy, decent stadium for well under $100 million dollars (possibly as low as $60 million dollars for 25,000 seats that can be expanded to over 40,000). I don't think that having a stadium that can be expanded adds much to the cost (it is just a matter of leaving the endzones open and building higher along the sidelines).

Winnipeg Blue Bombers new stadium; cross-sectional drawing (source - http://www.bluebombers.com/ , but no longer at that website)

[Empire]

Halifax needs to take a wee bit of inspiration from Winnipeg. When they lost the Jets they never gave up. They built the MTS Centre with the Moose as the main tenant and built in good acoustics for concerts. This facility was the show of faith that they were serious about getting an NHL team back in town and if it had not been built it would be very unlikely that they would have an NHL team today.

Aside from the forward thinking, good planning and team spirit that the community of Winnipeg displayed it should be noted that they did it with a modest facility......133 million and 16,000 seats.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by wespidel

You will be not breaking any confidentiality agreements, I promise and either will I, you are clear to make the image posts and I have given you the permission to because I supplied you the images which were freely and willingly supplied to me without a signed confidentiality agreement document stating not to display or show any third party the images which makes it totally legal to share and show openly which was provided to me as well. These have been made available and have been all ready shown to the public and displayed on local TV and there was no copyright restrictions on these images. I worked in this field and I know what I`m talking about so Fenwick it`s totally ok to post the images which I believe with the stadium meeting coming up next week will provide some interesting debate.


Looking forward to your feedback, take care!

SPYDER*

Thanks wespidel. I would prefer that you post them though. You will have to upload the images to an image hosting site such as imageshack, flickr or photobucket, etc. Once you upload the pictures then it is fairly easy to post them on this forum.

[cormiermax]

I can upload them for you if you wish, id just like to see them

[wespidel]

Fenwick I understand what you are saying and the similarities but I believe in 2011 at the current costs in relation to what Bmo`s 20,000 stadium was built for and the way it was built with only one two tier side with skyboxes that in order to build a super BMO field 25,000 permanent seat stadium with twin two tier sections between the goal lines and with open endzones and with skyboxes on both sides and concources that are open, plus VIP lounges and club houses and restaurants and the latest video screen etc. it would cost nearly 100 million to build and that could be also with a partial roof. I believe if it was build similar to Bmo field`s structure Halifax could build it for 100 million or slightly less perchaps 90 million.

[wespidel]

In today world of sports or entertainment in building a stadium you have to have all the imporatnt amenities needed in a stadium to bring in enough revenue to make a sports franchise viable and as well for the facility itself to be profitable in order to stay in business. Those are the facts in the really world and building a stadium today that can`t deliver a decent bottom line and present opportunities not a stadium that dosen`t have the capacity or features and cannot be expanded properly temporarily for major events or built to be expanded permanently into the future, will not cut it. So that`s is why I am very convinced and know that this needs to be the model and I have done my homework too and enough research to know and follow the CFL faithfully, not the overated over-hyped outdoor arena football, no fun league (NFL) and I have been in every CFL stadium and been to 12 Grey Cups. Halifax needs a CFL model stadium and they also need a major sports franchise tenant to justify building a modestly priced 100 million dollar stadium to cover the cost. So why wouldn`t they want this when they can have it. It`s a natural, build it and they will come. They have it sitting on a platter. They have the population and the market and will definitely attract a CFL owner with the right facility which has to be build to accommodate a Grey Cup Game which a CFL owner needs to have to be viable franchise. I have studied this enough to know and have learned from following the CFL for many years and what business model works in to stadium concepts and necessary features and demographics and marketing of the product. I`m very demonstrative in what I`m trying to spell out but I met Larry Smith several times and Dave Braley as well and learned from them and they know what is the perfect CFL model is and it`s actually more like 30,000 permanent seats with all the amenities, expandable to 45 or 50 thousand for a Grey Cup. Actually Fenwick the Montreal McGill newly renovated 25,000 permanent seat model without a roof and with skyboxes and open concourses could possibly be build for around 75 million.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by wespidel

In today world of sports or entertainment in building a stadium you have to have all the imporatnt amenities needed in a stadium to bring in enough revenue to make a sports franchise viable and as well for the facility itself to be profitable in order to stay in business. Those are the facts in the really world and building a stadium today that can`t deliver a decent bottom line and present opportunities not a stadium that dosen`t have the capacity or features and cannot be expanded properly temporarily for major events or built to be expanded permanently into the future, will not cut it. So that`s is why I am very convinced and know that this needs to be the model and I have done my homework too and enough research to know and follow the CFL faithfully, not the overated over-hyped outdoor arena football, no fun league (NFL) and I have been in every CFL stadium and been to 12 Grey Cups. Halifax needs a CFL model stadium and they also need a major sports franchise tenant to justify building a modestly priced 100 million dollar stadium to cover the cost. So why wouldn`t they want this when they can have it. It`s a natural, build it and they will come. They have it sitting on a platter. They have the population and the market and will definitely attract a CFL owner with the right facility which has to be build to accommodate a Grey Cup Game which a CFL owner needs to have to be viable franchise. I have studied this enough to know and have learned from following the CFL for many years and what business model works in to stadium concepts and necessary features and demographics and marketing of the product. I`m very demonstrative in what I`m trying to spell out but I met Larry Smith several times and Dave Braley as well and learned from them and they know what is the perfect CFL model is and it`s actually more like 30,000 permanent seats with all the amenities, expandable to 45 or 50 thousand for a Grey Cup. Actually Fenwick the Montreal McGill newly renovated 25,000 permanent seat model without a roof and with skyboxes and open concourses could possibly be build for around 75 million.

Thanks wespidel - this is great information. I have been in the Rogers Centre and Olympic Stadium (and a few in the US) but not the more economical stadiums such as Montreal's Molson Stadium and Calgary's McMahon Stadium (somewhat similar to a Nussli design but built out of concrete - i.e. a single tier stadium) - I would really like to see the concourse layout for these more economical stadiums.

I will try to get to the BMO field in the next month or so and take some pictures.

What are your thoughts about a layout like the one that I showed back on page 143 - direct link? In other words build a stadium with lots of versatility for easy expansion and club seat/luxury box additions? There could be lots of concourse space where VIP suites and restaurants could be added, and if it started with 25,000 seats it could be easily, and inexpensively, expanded to 30,000 permanent seats).

[wespidel]

There you go, I was right he said that they are focused on building a mickey mouse 9,500 permanent seat stadium like the Events NS facility with 10 thousand temporary seats, price 30 million. That`s your stadium!

[wespidel]

Fenwick I was impressed with what you presented, I wish Halifax would listen and take some of your and my advise, they learn something but they are determined to treat a stadium project second rate and that`s is exactly what they will get!

Fenwick, the Nussli photos really don`t mean much because Halifax are probably going to build their 30 million Events NS 9,500 peramnent stadium and not the Nussli modular fixed bowl model so for fun, if you want the people on the site to see what Nussli actually presented to HRM for around 65 million, then feel free to have our guests take a look, it`s not a problem!

[cormiermax]

To be honest, id rather have no stadium at all then waist my tax dollars on some rinky dink great for the kids soccer games but not much else stadium, its just not worth it. I mean jezz, we cant even beat Moncton? This attitude of nothing can be done right in this city really gets to me sometimes.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by wespidel

There you go, I was right he said that they are focused on building a mickey mouse 9,500 permanent seat stadium like the Events NS facility with 10 thousand temporary seats, price 30 million. That`s your stadium!

I do believe that this is the direction for Events Nova Scotia since I was told something similar to this back in December 2010. I wonder if there are two viewpoints - Events Nova Scotia (provincial) - $30 million dollar stadium and Mayor Kelly/HRM Councillors who would like a $60 million dollar stadium?

It would be a depressing proposition if this is the best that can be done in the Halifax area. Much of the initial $30 million dollar portion of a stadium would be spent on the field, lights, changerooms, etc. An extra 10,000 seats would likely only add $15 million or so (only one field is needed, only one set of night-time lights, etc.). If they are planning to go with the bare minimum then they should spend a bit more and build 20,000 permanent seats instead of messing around with temporary seats.

PS: It should be noted that the HRM has set up both a facebook site and twitter account and are holding open houses regarding a stadium. So I want to see what will occur. I think that we will see at least a 20,000 permanent seat stadium in the Halifax area.

[q12]

Originally Posted by wespidel

There you go, I was right he said that they are focused on building a mickey mouse 9,500 permanent seat stadium like the Events NS facility with 10 thousand temporary seats, price 30 million. That`s your stadium!

Don't read too much into this yet. It's still the early stages of planning, these people (steering committee) are not going to be making final decisions on the stadium size.

I think Kelly, Dexter and Mackay all would like to see something significant in terms of a stadium that would leave a legacy.

[beyeas]

It is interesting to see the disparity in approaches across Canada with respect to sporting facilities, in particular (because it has been in the news a lot of late) in hockey arenas.

You have the true build-it-and-they-will-come approach being attempted in Quebec City, which (if they can get around their own contracting laws) will be a pure $400M in public funds for capital costs but then facility management transferred to the private sector, in the hopes of getting a professional hockey team.

You have the pseudo build-it-and-they-will-come approach which has worked in Winnipeg, which was a PPP with $93M coming from a private partnership and $40.5M coming from public funds, and had a sort-of anchor tenant in an AHL team but has now of course managed to attract an NHL franchise.

You have the current plans to build a new arena in Edmonton directly for an existing NHL anchor tenent as a joint build (assuming it goes forward) between the ownership group of the existing anchor and the municipal government (but so far not the provincial government).

It is certainly a mixed bad of approaches across the country.

[wespidel]

This blew me away, first he definitely did say it was only a 10,000 permanent seat stadium with a temporary make shift to 20 thousand seats and did add that they may have a rack around the field. Can you imagine, well it would be very similar then to Moncton`s stadium. The stadium part won`t be very much of a sports facility if they are putting in a track and stadium for 30 million. He also talked a lot about community use and university use which like a said before, it becomes a Sue Uteck special. I don`t know why they just don`t build it at Saint Marys if that`s the case because they are basicly building it for them to replace the dump they have. This is an absolute joke and yes I will attend and I will certainly voice my opinion and I will demand answers! This is the biggest snow job the city and the province have never pulled off just to give Saint Mary`s a free stadium with our taxpayers money!

[worldlyhaligonian]

Yeah, the whole SMU concept is complete b/s... it just doesn't make sense for public money to support a "stadium" for an institution that already gets plenty of public money and already has a working facility that is more than good enough for the school's games.

A public-private partnership for a facility between $60-100 million makes the most sense. Land at Shannon Park or wherever should be donated by the feds, there should be money from 3 levels of gov't and the private sector.

The biggest issue in all of this to me is what defines a "stadium". Some people have the audacity in HRM to call a 3 story building a "tower". I hope we don't end up with the equivalent in "stadium" terms.

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by wespidel

Waye Mason, you indicated that there was part of the advisory stadium committee at your meeting that stated that Halifax does not need presently a modestly priced 100 million 25,000 permanent seat plus multi purpose stadium but maybe in generations to come. Well if this is the case and it obvious it is, Halifax will be the laughing stock of Canada when they build there mickey mouse 30 million 9,500 permanent seat eyesore of a so called stadium which will suit Saint Mary`s and Soccer NS fine. They will really have achieved nothing but a Sue Uteck special!. Why don`t HRM and Dexter`s govt. come out a say they are going to build a mickey mouse tiny little stadium, rather then misleading and snowing the public. Halifax is a minor league city and will remain that and deserved to be what it is, a disgrace!

Go Moncton go!

1 - you promised to never post here again. You are as bad as a politician. Keep your promise.

2- link to one government communication that ever said this process would result in spending more than $75 million. No one ever ever ever said that. Not one level of government. The committee is tasked to build a community stadium, not a CFL stadium. That was clear from the start.

[cormiermax]

That's very disappointing to hear, another 30 million dollars wasted

[MaritimeCFLFan]

If the plan is indeed to build a $30 million stadium similiar to Moncton then I say just drop the whole project as it is a huge waste of time and $. If your going to build a stadium please do it right. Someone needs to have the vision to plan for the future. Beleive me if this $30 million stadium is what gets built it won't take the public long to figure out what a huge waste it was.

Build a CFL sized stadium capable of expansion suitable to host Grey Cups. It is estimated that the 2012 Grey Cup in Toronto will mean $100 million or more to that province. If the stadium is built you will see an owner emerge and Halifax will be granted a CFL franchise. It has long been a dream to make the CFL a true coast to coast league.

[ewjonsson]

I think we should build what we can afford now, with the capacity to expand in five or ten years. There's no way that we will get a huge chunk of money from the feds, especially if they give us money for something else like the shipbuilding contract or the convention centre.

Some of the best stadiums in the world have been built piece by piece over decades. Look at something like The Melbourne Cricket Ground (My personal favourite). It started out as a single grandstand seating 6000, and now it holds 100,000 plus. Granted, it did take like a hundred years but it had a good location and the ability to expand. As long as we have a good location now, we can expand in a couple of years when we will have a better shot at attracting a CFL team.

I think Halifax is asking for too much right now to also want a world class facility for a mediocre event (women's world cup).

[wespidel]

This is what you posted and said was indicated at your meeting which I believe you also said was attended by an advisory committee member, correct. I asked you privately to explain and clarify some of your comments from your meeting and you didn`t have the courtesy to reply. If your are so right and so positive that it`s a 5,500 permanent seat community stadium then back it up! Why are you so powerful in your comments and noboby else counts. I don`t appreciate your smart remark! I decided to come back because I thought I could provide some interesting comments and especially where the stadium meeting is around the corner. You have a right to your comments and beliefs and I have I right to mine and as do others. You should he more repsectful and not make ignorant comments which I never made about you or your posts and which I have never made about everyone`s comments. But when someone is ignorant to me and disrespectful I will defend myself and tell them what I think of their rude ignorant behaviour which in return they deserve. Yes, I speak my mine but I back it up with fact and what I believe to be accurate. What if I tell you to get lost and stay off this site because of your ignorant remark attacking me. If you attack me which you did first, I will attack you. I didn`t attack you and make an ignorant remark, you did!


PS. One further comment in my opinion and yes I`m allowed to have an opinion too Waye Mason. If small town people, and I`m from a small town, want to have a community facility then build it where it`suited in a town not in a major city like Halifax that should have a lot more vision for the size of the city and the times. They should want to build a stadium they need for the market which isn`t just Halifax, it`s the entire region and why would you want to encourage or build a small mickey mouse stadium in a Halifax that has a market of 560 thousand people with a hour and half of the city. Well I know the answer, it`s because it`s only going to be a replacement university football stadium to replace the dump their playing in now. So why didn`t they tell us, you say they did Waye Mason. I say they didn`t! I say they mislead the real sports fans and entertainment fans in the city and region, that want a real stadium. A major stadium that can attract a CFL potiental owner and can accommodate a Grey Cup Game and major concerts to our city which will put Halifax on a National and Global scale, that is what the majority of people in this region want, not a small community Saint Marys 5,500 to 9,500 seat stadium. Waye Mason, those are the real facts and real wants and needs!

But if you say it`s now a 5,500 permanent seat community stadium and not a 10,000 permanent seat Events NS stadium which a member of the advisory board announced today on radio then maybe you know more than him and everybody, including the Mayor,Premier Dexter, Peter MacKay and PM Harper!

PS. I just wanted to say thanks to the people who have been kind and have made some complementary comments about some of my posts since I decided to try to return. Thank-you good people and I truely appreciate and respect you all for your kindness and special thanks Fenwick who has been super supportive and for all his efforts and expertise and his communication by email and his willingness always to help and follow -up.

Take care, and thanks again, SPYDER*