Halifax Stadium Discussion

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by c-way-dude

If a stadium were built with 14-16k along the sidelines and open end zones, it could still likely be expanded to host a CFL franchise at a reasonable cost.

The problem with thinking small like this is the same as we now see with the Metro center. It was designed to be expanded but now the NIMBYS are saying it cannot, because it would require it to infringe upon a view up Duke St that nobody else even cares about. You're far better off to build what you need now rather than rely on what could be a pie in the sky that might never get realized.

[ATL Stadium]

Will be attending one of the sessions. Was hoping to be at the first one but have a previously scheduled meeting. So likely headed to the Lebrun one.
Will watch this site for info!

STOP THE BICKERING!

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by ATL Stadium

Will be attending one of the sessions. Was hoping to be at the first one but have a previously scheduled meeting. So likely headed to the Lebrun one.
Will watch this site for info!

STOP THE BICKERING!

It is good to see you posting on here again.

[c-way-dude]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The problem with thinking small like this is the same as we now see with the Metro center. It was designed to be expanded but now the NIMBYS are saying it cannot, because it would require it to infringe upon a view up Duke St that nobody else even cares about. You're far better off to build what you need now rather than rely on what could be a pie in the sky that might never get realized.

I wish that a $90-$100 million stadium could be built now. That is why I suggested a few pages back that the CFL could guarantee Halifax the hosting rights for a couple of Grey Cup games to help cover costs above the $60 million maximum that has been repeatedly mentioned.
However, sometimes you just have to take what you can get and make the best of it. If David Braley can basically break even in BC with a temporary stadium, then it should be possible for a franchise in Halifax to break even in a permanent version of that stadium. Leave room in the stadium to easily add things like more luxury boxes, and try to make a go of it.

[Waye Mason]

Reading about the Jets in G&M today made me wonder about the MTS Centre in Winnipeg.

Interesting that NHL size always meant 18000 or so and MTS seats 15K.

Even more interesting is how it was funded... 70% private sector funding, owned by private developers. Only about $45 million in taxpayers money, split three ways between Feds, province, municipality.

So two points arise:

1 - MTS Centre hosted AHL and concerts and no NHL for seven years, and is around the high end of size for a new Metro Centre. So in Winnipeg, anyway, there is a private business case to build an operate a 15K rink? Though, to be fair, the place is also a casino type deal, they have 50 VLTs and are getting 90 more, which puts 1.5 million now and up to 4 million a year into the facility. But still, private money. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manito...dy-raised.html

2 - Are the economics there for this scale of private partnership in a stadium? The committee is looking into partnership. For me, any reservations about size disappear if it is not taxpayers money paying for the damn thing. If govt put in 30-60 million and private came up with 60-120 milion then gung ho! But I wonder if an outdoor facility here, with 120 rental days at most, and 60 of them probably raining, has the same economics.

[fenwick16]

This is interesting information Waye. 15,000 seats is actually the minimum number of seats required in the NHL although most cities have more (although in places like Florida and Atlanta it doesn't do much good because many of the seats are sold for $15 - $20 a piece or given away).

I think that a CFL team in Halifax would also be a success story. Like the Winnipeg NHL story shows, as does the Montreal Molson Stadium, teams can succeed with fewer tickets. Having an oversupply of tickets is not good either since it drives down ticket prices.

There is a big difference in revenue requirements for a NHL team and a CFL team. The current salary cap in the NHL is around $60 million dollars and reportedly will be around $62 million next season - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHL_salary_cap . The CFL 2010 salary cap was $4.2 million - http://www.sportsnet.ca/football/cfl...-salary-cap-0/ .

For a NHL team to make money, it needs to be in the $80 - $90 million dollar revenue range per year. The CFL with its much lower salary cap and much lower travel expenses might be able to break even or make money at $10 million revenue per year. If a CFL team sells 25,000 seats at an average of $400/year per season ticket (for 9 games plus an exhibition game) then that would be $10 million dollars. More realistically, they might sell tickets for less than this but also get advertising revenue and some TV revenue.

I hope that Halifax will build at least a permanent 25,000 seat stadium that can be easily expanded. I would prefer to see Halifax start with just the basic amenities and then add to the stadium as required. I think that US university stadiums are a very good model for the CFL (but have a partial roof). Most appear to be appealing, but economic designs. Winnipeg is an established team, they can afford a more expensive stadium since it is being mostly paid for by the Manitoba government.

My concern is that if everybody thinks that $90 million is required to build a stadium, then Halifax will get a $90 million dollar stadium that could have been built for $60 million - $70 million dollars (much of the difference will end up in the builders bank account). It would be better to go to a number of builders and say this is the money available, what type of stadium can you build for that amount?

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

Reading about the Jets in G&M today made me wonder about the MTS Centre in Winnipeg.

Interesting that NHL size always meant 18000 or so and MTS seats 15K.

Even more interesting is how it was funded... 70% private sector funding, owned by private developers. Only about $45 million in taxpayers money, split three ways between Feds, province, municipality.

So two points arise:

1 - MTS Centre hosted AHL and concerts and no NHL for seven years, and is around the high end of size for a new Metro Centre. So in Winnipeg, anyway, there is a private business case to build an operate a 15K rink? Though, to be fair, the place is also a casino type deal, they have 50 VLTs and are getting 90 more, which puts 1.5 million now and up to 4 million a year into the facility. But still, private money. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manito...dy-raised.html

2 - Are the economics there for this scale of private partnership in a stadium? The committee is looking into partnership. For me, any reservations about size disappear if it is not taxpayers money paying for the damn thing. If govt put in 30-60 million and private came up with 60-120 milion then gung ho! But I wonder if an outdoor facility here, with 120 rental days at most, and 60 of them probably raining, has the same economics.

Yup, that was similar thoughts to what I was raising 2 pages ago about "whither the private sector?", and also why I brought up the different funding models used for the MTS (mostly private with some public) versus what is being proposed in Quebec where it is 100% public money to build but will potentially be leased to private to operate. For the MTS Centre the private sector put in $93M... not sure though that there is that sort of will on the private side in Hfx to make a big investment though. Are there any rumblings at all of a private/corporate group? It would be a complete game changer if there was actual momentum on a possible ownership group for a future team etc.

I just don't see there being enough public money being available to make this CFL ready. I am just being realistic here. I do agree that libraries and conference centres have also gotten public money, and so a stadium should probably get similar dollars, but to build what some on here are talking about (on the order of 100M) then that is going to take a private partner to step forward.

PS: On the note of the Winnipeg team. It is awesome that they got a team, and good on them that they sold out all those tickets in minutes. That is fabulous. My one nagging worry is that with only 15k seats, that although they now have financial stability with the season ticket sales and hopefully should be financially stable, the consequence of that few seats may be that they have to spend salary at the league minimum in the collective agreement (ala Nashville etc). It will be that much more challenging for them to hold onto their top talent with the younger free agency these days. But, challenges aside, it is great that the jets are back!

[wespidel]

Fenwick MTL McGill stadium that the Als play in, had to be expanded even after selling out every game when the facility held 20,200 seats, for years since they lefted the big O. The owner still was losing money he needed a minimum of 25,000 seats and an additional 19 more skyboxes and other amenities, like a new open concourse between the new expansion upper deck with permanent concession stands and washrooms inorder to make a profit and that`s why they did the expansion. It had to happen! I believe if Halifax are going to do what you suggested above, that they have to go all the way to attract a potential owner. There is a certain stardard miniumum CFL stadium model and the MTL model is that. I suggest Halifax can do better if Halifax build a 90 to 100 million stadium or even have the same type facility as MTL under 90 million. If they build it close to what you need, say in a 20 thousand permanent seat like the Bmo field stadium, when they could build like you said a minimum of 25,000 permanent seats which is the minimum qualification size for a CFL franchise, that certainly would be an improvement capacity wise which you need but you need more importantly to have skyboxes on both sides of the stadium and VIP lounges with club houses and restaurants, concourses with permanent washrooms and concession stands inorder to be more viable and as well it`s crucial to build a CFL model stadium that can be expanded for a Grey Cup game and that is a minimum of 45 thousand seats. I actually gave Nussli the perfect CFL two tier open endzone CFL model! But Fenwick, you and Waye Mason both made some very good accurate comments and provided some factual info that also presents some options and at the same time I believe it`s important now to do it entirely right and build it to have all the amenities and size and concept that is needed to fully attract a CFL franchise and major concerts and definitely a Grey Cup. The CFL is on the uprise and with all the new CFL stadiums being built in Ottawa, Hamilton, Winnipeg, and in Rider nation, it`s even more important than ever before for Halifax to step up at the plate and seriuosly make a super effort to deliver the proper stadium that will attract the 10th CFL franchise and make our great game that`s truely Canadian, coast to coast. Nothing against Moncton because I have my tickets for Touchdown Atlantic II but Halifax is truely the best location to locate the 10th CFL franchise and even people in Moncton that are friends of mine feel the same. So Halifax it is all up to you and I truely believe it`s best we all work together to encourage the city and province to find a way!

[wespidel]

This may not work, but if it does, you may be able to see a Nussli modular bowl type fixed stadium that I believe Halifax was presented and were interested in builting when Mayor Kelly was showed this product in Toronto and when he was in Ottawa and made is infrastructure list which included a 65,000 stadium which Fenwick posted.

[IMG]http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/5...umsolution.jpg

[IMG]http://690.imageshack.us/img690/6316...rstadiumso.jpg

[wespidel]

[IMG]http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/6...rstadiumso.jpg

Sorry I mistyped the URL code upload! This should work!

Take Care

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by wespidel

Fenwick MTL McGill stadium that the Als play in, had to be expanded even after selling out every game when the facility held 20,200 seats, for years since they lefted the big O. The owner still was losing money he needed a minimum of 25,000 seats and an additional 19 more skyboxes and other amenities, like a new open concourse between the new expansion upper deck with permanent concession stands and washrooms inorder to make a profit and that`s why they did the expansion. It had to happen! I believe if Halifax are going to do what you suggested above, that they have to go all the way to attract a potential owner. There is a certain stardard miniumum CFL stadium model and the MTL model is that. I suggest Halifax can do better if Halifax build a 90 to 100 million stadium or even have the same type facility as MTL under 90 million. If they build it close to what you need, say in a 20 thousand permanent seat like the Bmo field stadium, when they could build like you said a minimum of 25,000 permanent seats which is the minimum qualification size for a CFL franchise, that certainly would be an improvement capacity wise which you need but you need more importantly to have skyboxes on both sides of the stadium and VIP lounges with club houses and restaurants, concourses with permanent washrooms and concession stands inorder to be more viable and as well it`s crucial to build a CFL model stadium that can be expanded for a Grey Cup game and that is a minimum of 45 thousand seats. I actually gave Nussli the perfect CFL two tier open endzone CFL model! But Fenwick, you and Waye Mason both made some very good accurate comments and provided some factual info that also presents some options and at the same time I believe it`s important now to do it entirely right and build it to have all the amenities and size and concept that is needed to fully attract a CFL franchise and major concerts and definitely a Grey Cup. The CFL is on the uprise and with all the new CFL stadiums being built in Ottawa, Hamilton, Winnipeg, and in Rider nation, it`s even more important than ever before for Halifax to step up at the plate and seriuosly make a super effort to deliver the proper stadium that will attract the 10th CFL franchise and make our great game that`s truely Canadian, coast to coast. Nothing against Moncton because I have my tickets for Touchdown Atlantic II but Halifax is truely the best location to locate the 10th CFL franchise and even people in Moncton that are friends of mine feel the same. So Halifax it is all up to you and I truely believe it`s best we all work together to encourage the city and province to find a way!

Although, for a team to be profitable this might be true. But I think that it is also possible to break even in a 25,000 seat stadium like the InfoCision Stadium in Akron - http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium...focision.shtml . Then if a team is successful it can expand. All CFL teams initially were in relatively small, economical stadiums.

I don't want to sound melodramatic but I am 53 years old and I would like to see a CFL team in Halifax while I am still alive. Although you want a $90 - $100 million dollar stadium, I don't think you will be able to force the provincial government to build it (and many residents will oppose such an expenditure). In my mind it would be better to hope for something that might be built instead of insisting on something that won't be built.

This part of the Moncton Stadium (below) was built for probably only $15 million, at the most (based on the total cost of the stadium). It likely seats about about 4,000 people. Multiply this by 3 and it would cost $45 million. Then have another 13,000 in a sunken lower bowl (which is much cheaper to build - since it is just concrete with no internal space) and a stadium might only cost $60 million. If on the other hand, you insist on a $100 million dollar stadium then how do you know that $50 million of that amount isn't just profit for the builders and contractors. How do you know that 50% percentage of the BMO Field cost wasn't just profit? It appears as though the Moncton Stadium builder and contractors didn't get an extraordinary amount of profit.

[c-way-dude]

There are recent examples of CFL teams playing in facilities with general similarities to the Nussli stadium. The most obvious is B.C. and Empire Field. It was also only a few years ago that B.C. closed off the upper bowl at BC Place. The capacity of the lower bowl is a little over 29k. Toronto also closed off the upper deck at SkyDome. The new stadium at Lansdowne Park in Ottawa is projected to seat somewhere between 23-25k. Hamilton's new stadium will be around the same capacity.
It is not ideal, but I can't see why a CFL team in Halifax couldn't make a go of it in a stadium like the Nussli stadium.

[fenwick16]

I think that the Nussli design looks good - similar to the New Cardiff City stadium, except it looks like the concourses are open. Also it looks like the washrooms/concessions/club suites are centralized on one side of the stadium. Except for not being easily expandable for a Grey Cup, it looks like a very compact, intimate stadium for the CFL.

It doesn't look like this stadium design can be easily expanded, but maybe it is possible that the sections can be dismantled and re-arranged differently(?). If this is built, I wonder if there would be washrooms and concessions along both sidelines - maybe wespidel can answer this question?

Another question for wespidel - since the signs at field level of the conceptual design show the name Cagliari Calcio, which is a soccer team in Italy, would the roof be sturdy enough for Nova Scotia snow load requirements? (or in other words, would it cost more money to upgrade it to the Canadian building code requirements, if necessary?)

These are the images uploaded by wespidel:
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/5...umsolution.jpg
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/6...rstadiumso.jpg

Having the concourses open will create an interesting feel to this stadium, especially with security fences built 40 - 50 feet from the stadium walls. It could be a bit like this BMO Field picture - sort of a county fair type of impression http://www.flickr.com/photos/8090206...in/photostream .

In my opinion this stadium has a lot of potential as a CFL stadium.

[TedWilliamsHead]

I wouldnt mind that stadium at all if it has the capacity to host the cfl

[cormiermax]

I agree this stadium is not at all as bad as I thought it was going to be, and if acceptable to the CFL would love to see it built.

[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

This is interesting information Waye. 15,000 seats is actually the minimum number of seats required in the NHL although most cities have more (although in places like Florida and Atlanta it doesn't do much good because many of the seats are sold for $15 - $20 a piece or given away).

I think that a CFL team in Halifax would also be a success story. Like the Winnipeg NHL story shows, as does the Montreal Molson Stadium, teams can succeed with fewer tickets. Having an oversupply of tickets is not good either since it drives down ticket prices.

There is a big difference in revenue requirements for a NHL team and a CFL team. The current salary cap in the NHL is around $60 million dollars and reportedly will be around $62 million next season - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHL_salary_cap . The CFL 2010 salary cap was $4.2 million - http://www.sportsnet.ca/football/cfl...-salary-cap-0/ .

For a NHL team to make money, it needs to be in the $80 - $90 million dollar revenue range per year. The CFL with its much lower salary cap and much lower travel expenses might be able to break even or make money at $10 million revenue per year. If a CFL team sells 25,000 seats at an average of $400/year per season ticket (for 9 games plus an exhibition game) then that would be $10 million dollars. More realistically, they might sell tickets for less than this but also get advertising revenue and some TV revenue.

I hope that Halifax will build at least a permanent 25,000 seat stadium that can be easily expanded. I would prefer to see Halifax start with just the basic amenities and then add to the stadium as required. I think that US university stadiums are a very good model for the CFL (but have a partial roof). Most appear to be appealing, but economic designs. Winnipeg is an established team, they can afford a more expensive stadium since it is being mostly paid for by the Manitoba government.

My concern is that if everybody thinks that $90 million is required to build a stadium, then Halifax will get a $90 million dollar stadium that could have been built for $60 million - $70 million dollars (much of the difference will end up in the builders bank account). It would be better to go to a number of builders and say this is the money available, what type of stadium can you build for that amount?

Fenwick
Interesting info....specially on the break even analysis....I've been watching the postings here but have stayed away from the fray. Too much personal things popping up....
The focus should simply be promoting the building of a Stadium.

[Welkin]

Any idea how much that one would cost?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Welkin

Any idea how much that one would cost?

Hopefully, I am not giving false information since wespidel knows more about the details, but my understanding is that this Nussli stadium design has a price of about $2,200 per seat, which would make it about $60 million. Based on information from wespidel, it is a more permanent form of the Vancouver Empire temporary stadium.

There are some possibilities to make this stadium more easily expandable - what if the field were sunken by about 8 feet from the level of the first row of seats. Allowing it to host FIFA international soccer would mean about 45 feet from the edge of a CFL field to the first row of seats (28 feet, or 8.5 meters, from the edge of the soccer field). By having a sunken field, which is better for football anyway, 4 - 5 rows of seats could be added along the sidelines. Also, there appears to be room at the top under the roof for another 4 rows of seats or club suites (however, the upper 4 rows of seats would have some column obstructed views).

It seems as though this stadium could be built for easy expansion if provisions were made when built (what if it had more rows of seats but had large open sections in the corners or endzones that could be filled in afterwards?)

[fenwick16]

As an interesting note to the images provided by wespidel, there is a 3D image of a very similar stadium that I believe was designed by Nussli on the 3D Google Warehouse at this weblink - http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehou...04179c0289f5a7. The reason that I believe that it was designed by Nussli is that the name on the stadium is the same as the name in the conceptual 2D drawings, and the design looks very similar. There are several stories about the new Cagliari Stadium; this one has an interior rendering - http://sardegna.blogosfere.it/2010/0...ornamenti.html

[Empire]

Everyone on this forum is in agreement that a stadium must #1 have the permanent seating capacity to attract a CFL team and #2 have the expansion capability of hosting a Grey Cup. The stadium steering committee and /or Kelly have not yet sent one signal that a potential stadium should have CFL potential built in. Hosting the FIFA world cup with mostly temporary seating seems to be enough for them. The CFL and concert potential message needs to get through so perhaps more support is required. Waye is there solid support in the entertainment industry for a venue like a 25,000 seat stadium? How about the ECMA'S (in June) to open the stadium?