Halifax Stadium Discussion

[Empire]

I was there as well and to be honest I thought it was poorly done. Very low key, no hype just repetative sticky comments in response to basic questions at voting type stations around the room. If they couldn`t get a speaker they should at least have have a promo video about Hfx potential sites, facts about hosting big events like the World Juniors....Winter Games etc.......

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by beyeas

Yeah I didn't get there until 8pm, but apparently the crowds were great at 6:30. I have a friend who is on the committee (didn't realize until I saw him there) and had a good chat with him.
I had a good look at all the messages that were posted, since I was there until it was done at 8:30. 90% were positive in various forms, but as I was saying to my friend it will be difficult to integrate it all because much of it is mutually exclusive.

Regardless, I put in my 2 cents to the committee members as a representative of the Beyeas Special Interest Group (TM), and said that this needs to happen, it needs to be built in a way that is expandable for future planning purposes up to a full Grey Cup size, should not have a track so as to preserve views for the primary uses of football and soccer, should be integrated with a transit hub, should not just be a slightly scaled up version of what Moncton built, and that this is a huge quality of life issue that is a massive part of the equation of recruiting and retaining talented workers to this city (as quality of life requires a whole range of amenities).

Thanks for the information. I am glad to hear that you gave them your thoughts. I hope that the low turn-out won't give a negative impression; I had hoped that there would be hundreds there. However, it is early in the stadium study with no stadium renderings for people to get excited about. If there was some type of stadium model to promote then I think it would create more interest. Most US universities start with a stadium model and then try to raise funds.

[q12]

Sounds like it was mostly positive feedback at the first open house which is good. I am going to try to attend the one in Bedford on Thursday.

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

Saying we can build a CFL stadium for 50-60% of what everyone else is building one for is simply farfetched. Hamilton and Winnipeg are not looking at $200 million give or take $10 million because they are stupid, they are talking about that because that is what it costs.

Fenwick, with respect I think in the past that you have taken a straight currency conversion of building a stadium in a foreign country and assumed we "should" be able to build one here for the same price. Currency is just a piece of it, there is the whole relative purchasing power per dollar issue. I don't think it is appropriate to look outside of North America for cost to build information.

Waye you are out to lunch. I'm not sure what your problem is, but you don't seem to really want a stadium built period. You seem to fall in the anti-everything crowd especially when comes to any project a government is involved with.

You don't seem to care about any real facts either. I'm honestly not sure why you even bother to post on this forum.

[beyeas]

I just wanted to add that the committee members said that although there were no specifics, there is an absolute expectation that there would have to be private/corporate money involves in some way. Of course it is possible that at a bare minimum they may be referring just to naming rights etc. Regardless, they want at least some of the money to not be public funds. Would love to know what discussions are going on behind closed doors!

[CorbeauNoir]

Originally Posted by q12

Sounds like it was mostly positive feedback at the first open house which is good. I am going to try to attend the one in Bedford on Thursday.




Waye you are out to lunch. I'm not sure what your problem is, but you don't seem to really want a stadium built period. You seem to fall in the anti-everything crowd especially when comes to any project a government is involved with.

You don't seem to care about any real facts either. I'm honestly not sure why you even bother to post on this forum.

I kind of agree with him, in part. I think it's a bit misleading to say "well a stadium in Israel or wherever costs X amount, so a similarly-sized stadium can be done for that amount here".

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by q12

You don't seem to care about any real facts either. I'm honestly not sure why you even bother to post on this forum.

I want an honest debate, is all.

Ivor Wynne renovation - $150 million - article dated June 2, 2011.

http://www.stoneycreeknews.com/news/article/236910

Winnipeg stadium replacement - $190 million - dated December 15, 2010

http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/story/?id=345621

These are facts This is what CFL cities are building to make their franchises successful.

I post here because I don't disagree with everything, and sometimes you guys have facts I don't, but I do believe we should be debating these issues.

What I find most fascinating is that many here seem to think it is useful to only have people who agree with them posting here. What is the point of that? Debate is good. Get over it.

[q12]

Public has say on possible outdoor Halifax stadium

Next open house tomorrow at Cole Harbour Place
Business case to finish in August

http://www.metronews.ca/halifax/loca...alifax-stadium

JENNIFER TAPLIN
METRO HALIFAX
Published: June 07, 2011 1:11 a.m.
Last modified: June 07, 2011 6:35 a.m.

Even with the pouring rain, the first of three public open houses for the proposed outdoor stadium drew about 40 people within the first half hour last night.

Bruce Evans of Halifax was one of them.

“I like the fact they invited the public early (in the process), but I’m a little skeptical over the whole stadium concept,” he said inside the Halifax Forum’s Maritime Hall.

Evans said he’s not sure if Halifax has the population base to support such a facility.

Residents read several explanatory panels set up by the consultants, Sierra Planning and Management.

After they chatted with the consultants, city staff and a few councillors, people were encouraged to write their thoughts out on sticky notes or seal them in an envelope if they wanted privacy. Sticky notes were posted on poster boards asking questions like, “How would you describe your ideal stadium” and “Would it improve your quality of life?”

There were two common themes in many of the notes: “CFL” and “Shannon Park.”

One note read: “No track. Partially covered. ASAP.”

And another: “CFL is a pipe dream -— don’t even consider it.”

Eileen Irwin of Halifax was also concerned about the price tag which, like the site, hasn’t been nailed down yet.

“I’m just wondering if we can afford it,” she said.

[q12]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

I want an honest debate, is all.

Ivor Wynne renovation - $150 million - article dated June 2, 2011.

http://www.stoneycreeknews.com/news/article/236910

Winnipeg stadium replacement - $190 million - dated December 15, 2010

http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/story/?id=345621

These are facts This is what CFL cities are building to make their franchises successful.

I post here because I don't disagree with everything, and sometimes you guys have facts I don't, but I do believe we should be debating these issues.

What I find most fascinating is that many here seem to think it is useful to only have people who agree with them posting here. What is the point of that? Debate is good. Get over it.

I have no problem with debating someone who bothers to look at the facts. Hamilton and Ottawa are both significantly larger cities. They want to spend money they have on making their stadiums more luxurious. Everybody doesn't need a Cowboys Stadium to be successful in the NFL.

There is no reason we cannot build a CFL capable stadium for a reasonable price. I never said you could take a foreign stadium and convert its construction costs 1 for 1. If you take the time to read through this forum there are many examples of reasonably costing stadiums built in North America that would work for the CFL.

The CFL is not that big of deal even though some people would like to think it is. It's a relatively small league that does not have stringent rules on the type of stadium required to host a CFL franchise. The main thing would be the minimum required number of seats. This is why a 25,000 seater is the way to go.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by q12

I have no problem with debating someone who bothers to look at the facts. Hamilton and Ottawa are both significantly larger cities. They want to spend money they have on making their stadiums more luxurious. Everybody doesn't need a Cowboys Stadium to be successful in the NFL.

There is no reason we cannot build a CFL capable stadium for a reasonable price. I never said you could take a foreign stadium and convert its construction costs 1 for 1. If you take the time to read through this forum there are many examples of reasonably costing stadiums built in North America that would work for the CFL.

The CFL is not that big of deal even though some people would like to think it is. It's a relatively small league that does not have stringent rules on the type of stadium required to host a CFL franchise. The main thing would be the minimum required number of seats. This is why a 25,000 seater is the way to go.

Well put q12. My thoughts exactly. Debating with Waye is a lot like debating with a tree.

I think the CFL is a great league with a rich history that can draw very good, fast, skilled players from the US and Canada, some of whom are considered to be too small for the NFL. Therefore the skill level can be similar to the NFL without the mega salaries.

The CFL is a league worth supporting since it is a Canadian league that Halifax should be part of. However, an extravagant stadium is not required. A US university type stadium with a modest partial roof would be fine.

[beyeas]

Debate is good and healthy.

But I agree, the comparison to what others cities have spent isn't necessarily reflective of what we might need to spend. There is a huge disparity in the money spent on various NHL rinks for example, with Winnipeg spending a small fraction of what say Toronto spent on Air Canada Centre (or even what Quebec is proposing).

What I want in a stadium is 25k seats, ability to expand (even if just using temporary seating) in the future, and good site-lines for the core sports that have the potential to bring anchor tenants. It is all well and good to be multi-use, but the fact is that there will be very few track-and-field events, but the potential to have a CFL or maybe in the future a MLS team isn't out of the question.

Beyond that, I don't care about bells and whistles. I don't care if it is a bland concrete structure that isn't beautiful. I want it to be functional for a reasonable cost. And that is where the comparison to what Winnipeg is building falls down. They are going from a relatively basic stadium to a (by CFL standards) high end one, but that is their choice and they have had a long term anchor tenant, and the fact is that they have been successful for a long time in that city with a far more basic stadium.

We don't need what they are building, and we can't simply say that we want what they have any more than we can simply define Moncton's stadium as what we don't want to have. A functional, 25k seat stadium with good site-lines for enjoying the core sports is all we need.

[q12]

Lots of feedback for and against stadium at first open house


Information placards adorn the room at the first of three public consultation sessions on the proposed stadium for Halifax held in June 2011.

http://www.news957.com/news/national...rst-open-house

Scott Simpson Jun 07, 2011 04:57:57 AM

The public has had its first chance to offer its two cents on the prospect of a new sports stadium for Halifax.

The steering committee exploring options for the new facility is taking its show on the road, with a series of open house meetings to tell the public a few things and ask for a lot of feedback on where the planning process should go.

Project manager Betty Lou Killen says the organizers will probably be learning more than the visitors.

"We don't have a lot to share with the public right now, it's business planning, right?" she said. "I think it's really about describing quality of life issues and trying to give people a chance to help identify gaps in service delivery."

The first open house took place at the Halifax Forum on Monday evening, and turnout was steady.

Gerrard said he'd like to see a stadium that's big, but not too big.

"Don't break the bank, but have something that's functional, attractive and located properly," he suggested.

Ken walked the room, read the info on the placards, and gave his feedback to the posted questions.

"We need a modest-sized stadium that's capable of providing a sense of community, a sense of pride," he said. "We don't want a 5000-seat stadium that's going to be used for community events."

John didn't give any feedback at the answer stations, saying he believes Halifax should stick to business instead.

"Building some wealth, building the thing that this stuff is supposed to symbolize, then we'll figure all this out," he said.

John added he believes the open house process is nothing but cheerleading, saying he thinks the city will forge ahead with a stadium regardless of business case or public opinion.

Ken said he's not so sure, and said he's hoping supporters will be vocal enough to drown out the inevitable naysayers.

"Typically, the squeaky wheel gets the grease or at least in Halifax, it seems the squeaky wheel prevents the grease," he said.

Killen says council will have its next look at the planning process in early August.

"The steering committee will have seen the draft report, vetted that report, and determined whether or not there's a recommendation to ask to go to phase two,"

The next open house is Wednesday night at Cole Harbour Place.

[Waye Mason]

I'm all for building a CFL stadium if we actually had an expansion franchise and if we can do it for under $100 million. Those are huge ifs.

Right now we are building a soccer stadium for FIFA women's cup. That is what we are talking about.

Mostly, it is I am a fiscal conservative. I want to see the province balance the budget, and there is only so much public money to go around, in HRM, provincially.

I'm a flexible thinker, if the arguments are able to convince me. The fact that I am unconvinced does not indicate a failure on my part, it indicates your arguments are not compelling for everyone. I am not the only person in Halifax, or on this board, who has these concerns and doubts.

[q12]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

I'm all for building a CFL stadium if we actually had an expansion franchise and if we can do it for under $100 million. Those are huge ifs.

You can't have a franchise until you have a stadium.

Right now we are building a soccer stadium for FIFA women's cup. That is what we are talking about.

One word, MULTI-PURPOSE. Soccer and football can play in the same stadium. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-purpose_stadium

Mostly, it is I am a fiscal conservative. I want to see the province balance the budget, and there is only so much public money to go around, in HRM, provincially.

I'm a flexible thinker, if the arguments are able to convince me. The fact that I am unconvinced does not indicate a failure on my part, it indicates your arguments are not compelling for everyone. I am not the only person in Halifax, or on this board, who has these concerns and doubts.

That's nice, thank god it's not you we need to convince to get a stadium built in this city.

I'm so relieved.

[beyeas]

"Typically, the squeaky wheel gets the grease or at least in Halifax, it seems the squeaky wheel prevents the grease,"

The guy who said that line was on the radio this morning saying the exact same line, and i thought it came across quite effectively. Was great to have airplay given someone hammering the boobirds of the city.

[Empire]

One thing that was interesting about the meeting was the people who weren't obvious 'pro stadium' still seemed to be receptive to a stadium being built with their tax dollars. I saw a couple of comments about keeping it around $80 million.

Other comments:

- 25,000 min seats
- partial roof
- expandable
- don't build too small
- no track
- combine transit hub
- Shannon Park popular with ferry
- don't make same mistake as Moncton

[Urban_Genius]

Just to keep this thread objective:

BC Place is undergoing a 450 million dollar upgrade.

Commonwealth Stadium is undergoing a 112 million dollar project for a complex attached to the stadium as well as 12 million for seat upgrading.

McMahon just underwent a total overhaul of the dressing rooms, offices, training rooms etc. and is looking to do considerable upgrades to add more luxury suites and enlarge the squeezy concourse.

Regina is looking at a 430 million dollar multi-purpose facility with retractable roof (Unrealistic IMO, but will be building a stadium nonetheless)

Winnipeg is building a 185 million dollar stadium

Hamilton is rebuilding Ivor Wynne for 150 million dollars

Ottawa is rebuilding Frank Clair for 130 million

Skydome is well...uh...you know the story

Molson stadium underwent a 30 million dollar project to expand the stadium by 5000 seats and add more luxury suites

BMO field cost 64 million dollars not including land

Saputo stadium will built for 40 million dollars not including land.


I think before you guys jump on other posters, you should consider what they're saying.
Personally, I agree with Waye. You won't be able to build a 25 000 seat, CFL caliber stadium for 60 million dollars.

Another point I'd like to address is the notion that all you need is 25000 seats for a CFL team to fly. This is simply not the case. Aside from the number of seats, you need a sizable number of corporate suites, club seating, ability to expand your stadium as well as high caliber dressing rooms, coaching offices, film rooms, etc. Building a bare bones stadium is not good enough.

No league has a set in stone requirement for the type of facility needed, but remember that there's an ideal type required for a certain business model. Generally it's accepted that a MINIMUM of 25000 seats are required, but depending on the market it could be higher or lower. This is no different than the NHL and Winnipeg for example.

Just my two cents

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Urban_Genius

Just to keep this thread objective:

BC Place is undergoing a 450 million dollar upgrade.

Commonwealth Stadium is undergoing a 112 million dollar project for a complex attached to the stadium as well as 12 million for seat upgrading.

McMahon just underwent a total overhaul of the dressing rooms, offices, training rooms etc. and is looking to do considerable upgrades to add more luxury suites and enlarge the squeezy concourse.

Regina is looking at a 430 million dollar multi-purpose facility with retractable roof (Unrealistic IMO, but will be building a stadium nonetheless)

Winnipeg is building a 185 million dollar stadium

Hamilton is rebuilding Ivor Wynne for 150 million dollars

Ottawa is rebuilding Frank Clair for 130 million

Skydome is well...uh...you know the story

Molson stadium underwent a 30 million dollar project to expand the stadium by 5000 seats and add more luxury suites

BMO field cost 64 million dollars not including land

Saputo stadium will built for 40 million dollars not including land.


I think before you guys jump on other posters, you should consider what they're saying.
Personally, I agree with Waye. You won't be able to build a 25 000 seat, CFL caliber stadium for 60 million dollars.

Another point I'd like to address is the notion that all you need is 25000 seats for a CFL team to fly. This is simply not the case. Aside from the number of seats, you need a sizable number of corporate suites, club seating, ability to expand your stadium as well as high caliber dressing rooms, coaching offices, film rooms, etc. Building a bare bones stadium is not good enough.

No league has a set in stone requirement for the type of facility needed, but remember that there's an ideal type required for a certain business model. Generally it's accepted that a MINIMUM of 25000 seats are required, but depending on the market it could be higher or lower. This is no different than the NHL and Winnipeg for example.

Just my two cents

However, Regina has already decided that they won't proceed with the retractable stadium (they wasted how many years chasing something that they could not obtain?). The $450 million dollar retractable roof for Vancouver is a good example of the waste that is encountered when money is no object. Hamilton shows what happens when there is a lot of federal money available - we have seen this before in places like Montreal and Toronto (the money just gets flushed down the toilet). Hamilton is paying a premium for getting federal money for the Pan-Am games by having to use a specific provincial agency for the construction (I am sure that Hamilton could build it much cheaper if they could build it by a competitive bidding process). The Hamilton stadium includes a large, multi-level parking structure; can't Halifax get by with less expensive surface parking? We want real details not Waye Mason debates. There are open houses regarding a stadium occurring this week in Halifax - now is the time for more detailed information, not debates. Decisions will be made soon to decide if Halifax will build a small community stadium, a restored SMU stadium, or a stadium that can be enlarged and upgraded in the future which might be suitable for the CFL.

Another example - the Winnipeg stadium includes a $45 million dollar recreation centre. Why should a $45 million dollar recreation centre, which is part of the Winnipeg Stadium, be included in the cost of a Halifax stadium? In order for such comparisons to be useful it would be necessary to break the Winnipeg Stadium cost into the roof cost, the multilevel enclosed concourse cost, the moveable seat cost, the profit margin ... When I ask for this type of information from Waye Mason, he ignores it and makes sarcastic, pompous remarks.

Most of us realize that an extravagant stadium won't occur in Halifax (fortunately). There is a real question of whether even a $30 million dollar stadium will occur. So asking questions of the minimum cost that Halifax can incur and obtain a CFL team is a fair question. Stating that a stadium will cost $150 million dollars in Halifax is the same as stating that such a stadium and the CFL won't occur in Halifax. So wanting factual, detailed information is a worthy request.

In your post above the bolded sentences would be the ones of interest in the Halifax area. Why is it being impractical to ask question such as - would an inexpensive Nussli stadium work in Halifax? Can most seats be bench style? How much would just a modest partial roof cost? This isn't being impractical, it is the sort of questions that people should be asking.

PS: One more fact - both Ottawa and Hamilton are downsizing to 25,000 seats. So why should Halifax be going larger? An oversupply of tickets will drive ticket prices down. I don't think that having open endzones in a stadium, to allow it to be expandable, will increase the cost (an enclosed bowl stadium doesn't extend as high up, but it has seats all around the field - one might offset the other).

[wespidel]

Seven city bids for FIFA which we all know, right! Maybe not so!

Well not really, but percahps 6 if Halifax bows out which one councillor who is not on the advisory committee said at the meeting, which blew me away. He said that it won`t go to phase two because they won`t have enough time to build it. That didn`t make a lot of sense to me because now Hamilton will only be out their stadium for one season, not two! Anyway councillor Fisher didn`t agree with this councillor.


But there is something I have to tell you all which is quite interesting to report and I kind of understand why it`s valid because there is now a majority PC govt. in Ottawa, coupled with a PC provincial in NB. So there is no way that Moncton will not be selected one of the host cities in Atlantic Canada and that`s where it becomes even more interesting. Guess what if Halifax does build a minimum required FIFA 10 to 15 thousand permanent seat stadium you will know why which will actually suit two purposes FIFA and of course give Saint Marys there replacement stadium so they can get back the Uteck Bowl in five years from Moncton a perchaps host a Vanier Cup and that will be it and no more! So it will be a Sue Uteck special and they don`t even have to find a new location because they can build that size stadium quite nicely on the Saint Marys campus, so they don`t have to travel across the city and Soccer NS will love it too! That`s the reality and the other interesting part which I`m about to tell, confirms this all to be true because if Halifax builds their 10 to 15 thousand seat stadium they will be guaranteed that they will share the bid with Moncton and spit the games in one of the six divisions, so it`s really all a done deal and it`s really not seven cities bidding to be six of the host cities for the four required divisions, it`s really seven! Interesting! That`s is why I believe the public has been snowed and mislead because the city had no intention and never did have any interest and plans in building at least a modestly priced 90 to 100 million dollar plus 25,000 plus seat CFL model stadium and by the way I have done enough research to know that you need to spent at least that much to build what is needed in a CFL model stadium to be viable.

Well all I can say, is thank-you Premier Dexter and city council, thank-you for having real vision, thank-you for wanting to be the sports and entertainment capital of the Atlantic region, thank-you for the so called largest city in Atlantic Canada that should want to build a major stadium for the region, not the smallest facility to replace Saint Marys dump, thank-you for treating the stadium project second rate compared to all your other major projects and wanting to spend the least amount of money on a stadium, thank-you for not wanting to be the tenth CFL franchise coast to coast, thank-you for not wanting to stage the first Grey Cup game in Atlantic Canada, and thank-you for not wanting to bring major concerts to Halifax in a real facility. Good job! Well done!

[wespidel]

Fenwick there is another CFL model that I believe can be build for probably under 100 million if built right and that`s the Montreal McGill Als CFL stadium that was recently renovated and expanded to 25 thousand permanent seats and they added an additional 19 skyboxes and other revenue features, an open face concourse with permanent washrooms and concession stands, etc., to make their owner more viable and I believe this type of CFL stadium could be built for 80 million.

[Empire]

One aspect of the meeting that was discouraging is the fact that one of the goals of the meeting is to determine whether there is enough interest to proceed to phase 2. You would think that most communities would be solidly behind a stadium project so why is it so different in Halifax? Certainly everyone is gunshy after the CWG debacle but a stadium will bring far more pros than cons and even if there are cost overruns it won't break the community.