Regional and Intercity Bus\Rail Transportation

[lrt's friend]

Higher frequencies mean the purchase of additional multi-million $ trains by Ottawa taxpayers for the use of Gatineau residents.

I cannot see short-turning trains on a routine basis. Short-turning trains at Bayview in particular will demonstrate that interlining was possible and should have been implemented to eliminate unnecessary transfer penalties for thousands of riders.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I cannot see short-turning trains on a routine basis. Short-turning trains at Bayview in particular will demonstrate that interlining was possible and should have been implemented to eliminate unnecessary transfer penalties for thousands of riders.

Bayview is too close to downtown to be a valid place to short-turn trains. As you say, if that becomes necessary to meet the demand of the Trillium Line (without leaving the majority of passengers on the platform), you might as well just interline. IMHO, we are decades away from that being necessary.

I believe the plan is to short-turn some trains at Lincoln Fields during peak periods, but that could change closer to the time, once demand is better understood. Similarly, I expect trains will be short-turned at both Blair and Place d'Orleans (I don't see Trim needing 2-3 minute service).

[PHrenetic]

Good Day.

Parts of short turning are tossed about all over the place.

The original concept even within the present Phase 1 was only short turning at Hurdman, via a pocket track between the eastbound and westbound tracks on the east side (similar to the SouthKeys pocket), to increase frequency through the downtown segment. That is no longer an option.
The west side had no short turns to reciprocate. There was a short-turn concept for the west side early in the plans when it had been going to go all the way out to LincolnFields in Phase 1 (where to short turn had not been decided). That was no longer an option.

As of Phase 2, the short turns had disappeared.
The plan for LincolnFields was and still is to interline Baseline/Algonquin with Moodie at all high and mid-volume times. Only at low volume times will a west/southbound train arrive at LF destined for one of the two (originally Baseline/Algonquin, but now, with extension to Moodie, anybody's guess as to which will be prime) meeting a shuttle to the other W/S destination. Similarly N/E bound, the shuttle meets the prime at LF, the prime which then continues eastbound. The shuttle waits for the next W/S bound meet. No short turns on the west side.
As for the east side, no mention of short turns, and I personally do not expect any at high and mid-volume times. But to balance out at low volume times, it's a pick'em party as to which station would qualify for best short-turn terminus. ? Blair ? Place d'Orleans ? Those would seem to be the two best choices, but it should depend on a proper traffic / load / demand / complaint analysis. (Yeah, right, OC do a proper analysis ?) My guess would be no short turns on the east side until RTG, in co-ord with OC, does indeed do a load .vs. maintenance analysis.... which by then will have a no-short-turn-because-it-never-has-had-one bias.

For Your Consideration.

PS:
And this particular segment of this conversation should move back to the Confed Line or ELRT or WLRT Phase 2 threads.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Neither of us have quoted maintenance and labour costs so it is one person's opionion vs. another. I will say that in Vancouver, Translink has argued against extending Skytrain to Langley, not because of construction costs, but because of vehicle maintenance costs.

That's relevant where additional vehicles are required (as for the Scarborough Subway Extension), or where some feature of an extension causes substantial wear and tear on vehicles. There's no evidence this is the case here. I consider any O&M costs less than say 2% to be marginal. And I would be a paycheque that the Trim extensions doesn't have a NET increase in costs > 2%. There's reductions in cost at Orleans that also go hand in hand with the costs of the building and operating the extension.

I am really curious what you consider to be "marginal".

Originally Posted by roger1818

Buses could easily be extended to Place d'Orlenas. They could still use the existing park and ride at Trim and have a shuttle bus. Alternately, they could build a parking garage at Place to save on sprawling parking.

A parking garage at Place is not cheap infrastructure. Depending on size of the garage and the corridor geography, those costs could actually be a wash on the extension to Trim.

And they certainly could extend to Place, the question is why would that be necessary if there is a station at Trim. Again, keep in mind the city isn't paying for the extension. The feds and province are. You don't turn down "free" capital for a marginal increase in operating costs if it gives you higher coverage.

Originally Posted by roger1818

That is fair, though if demand got high enough, GO would probably take over the commuter service and build a bus station. Not likely high enough to warrant that now though.

It's not like GO involvement is mandatory. It's entirely possible that OC Transpo could get provincial funding to run such a service. Or the towns could regularize service themselves. There's lots of possibilities here. The main issue is ridership (or lack thereof). Not who runs the program, or funds the cost differences.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Or build an urban commuter bus terminal.

When ridership happens we can talk about it. It's a long time away. And Trim, unfortunately, will basically turn Clarence-Rockland into a suburb with regular transfers at Trim.

Originally Posted by roger1818

I just don't see how this is a valid comparison.

You don't see how the need to limit traffic in the downtown core is relevant?

Originally Posted by roger1818

Yes I have, though it is better compared to CRT's "Booklet of daily tickets."

In that case, the cost difference is even higher, at $63. Which goes back to my point. They exert quite the price on sprawl in the GTA. Something we could learn from.

[waterloowarrior]

Things aren't looking good in Clarence Rockland
http://www.editionap.ca/est-ce-la-fi...transpo?id=846

Russell has a report on their agenda next week (not available yet) on the future of the service. Hopefully the results of the OC Transpo negotiations

[waterloowarrior]

Future of Russell Transpo - Russell will be going out for tender with multiple service options, pending review by Council next week

Staff report
https://russell.civicweb.net/FileSto...)final(2).docx

On December 3rd, the Department of Economic Development presented an informative repo rt to Council on possible future changes following the opening of the Light Rail Transit in Ottawa. The two exchange administered by the City of Ottawa will be :

• Fare integration will be discontinued starting March 31, 2019 ( passengers who need to transfer to OC Transpo / STO will be required to purchase a Presto Card and select their choice of fare ) ;
• Access to reserved bus lane on the Highway 417 and downtown Ottawa will no be available to follow Russell Transpo therefore we expect an Increase in travel time . (date to be determined ).

They are facing the same issues for the future of their transit system. The only rural partner comparable to our municipal service is Clarence-Rockland. However, it was announced that the contract for the public transit service expires on August 31, 2019 , and will not be renewed. Clarence-Rockland Community Services was also commissioned to collaborate on the transition to the privatization of the transit service.

Based on the recommendations of our Transit Feasibility Study and the latest updates for the Ottawa Light Rail Transit (see email courtesy of the City of Ottawa in Appendix 2) , the Economic Development Department is proposing the following for the current Russell Transpo service:

• Russell Transpo will continue serving downtown Ottawa and the Hull sector ;
• Once the LRT opens, we will adjust the schedule accordingly , if necessary .

The contract with our service provider, 417 Bus Line, is ending on June 30, 2019. The above proposals will be in effect until that date.

As a result of the Concerns raised by Council members in relation to the current contract, we Would like Council to be aware of the terms of the tender before the call is made.

The tender contains the following elements: (see Annex 1).

Contractors will require their services for three different options in the RFP , such as:

• Offer the service as is the same as the current existing routes ;
• Existing offer the service but end the road to downtown Ottawa (remove stops at Place du Portage and Terrace );
• Offer services only to Hurdman Station.

Ridership data from the RFP

[Gat-Train]

$400000-$245000 for 300 people works out to about $600 per person, which is definitely worth it to combat traffic and reduce GHG emissions

[waterloowarrior]

here are the three options for Russell. I think a lot will depend on traffic patterns post-LRT/417 reconfiguration

Option 1: Downtown Ottawa + Gatineau


Option 2: Downtown Ottawa only



Option 3: Hurdman only

[rocketphish]

Rural Ottawa-area residents to lose joint transit passes with OC Transpo

Tom Spears, Ottawa Citizen
Updated: March 15, 2019

Ottawa will cancel its joint transit passes with Kemptville, Clarence-Rockland and other rural bus services, forcing residents from outside Ottawa to buy two passes a month to commute to work.

The changes take effect April 1.

A notice from Clarence-Rockland tells residents: “Please note that the City of Ottawa has abolished its agreements with the rural partners and CRTranspo users will no longer have access to OC Transpo services at no charge as of April 1st, 2019.” (CRTranspo is Clarence-Rockland’s bus service.)

Here are a few changes that will be effective at that date:
• No more access to the Hurdman station.
• CRTranspo will have its own monthly passes.

Clarence-Rockland is holding a public meeting about the issue March 26.

Under the current system, rural residents can buy one pass that allowed them to transfer to OC Transpo at no extra charge.

CRTranspo users had been discussing the change on Reddit.

“For me, that means I have to start taking my car to work,” one wrote. “If I would like to continue using the CR Transpo bus service, I would have to pay for their monthly bus pass, which is $248 and also pay for OC Transpo monthly pass of $115. That’s way too much for commute.”

Julie Chartrand, the communications officer for Clarence-Rockland, said her city has now decided not to renew its bus contract with Leduc Bus Lines, the private provider, in September. However, she said Leduc may continue tow service on a private basis and the city will maintain bus shelters and park-and-ride parking lots.

She said there are now 10 bus runs in the morning and nine in the afternoon, on two routes. Passes are $248 for adults and $180 for students.

Allegiance Transportation Services, operating buses from Kemptville into Ottawa, is in the same position.

“OC Transpo has indicated that they will universally remove the subsidized component of monthly passes for all Rural Partners after the final supply of March 2019 passes. For those who wish to use OC Transpo buses or O-Trains you will be required to purchase a product/service directly from OC Transpo. Rural Partners, like ATS, run independently of OC Transpo and therefore charge separately for services,” it says in an online post.

It says Allegiance will not lower its fees after the joint passes end, and will not use Presto for rural service.

This newspaper has asked the City of Ottawa for further information.

More to come.

tspears@postmedia.com
twitter.com/TomSpears1

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...ith-oc-transpo

[lrt's friend]

I have heard this for a while.

Does this mean that the Rockland service collapses?

[Uhuniau]

This does not sound like a productive move.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I have heard this for a while.

Does this mean that the Rockland service collapses?

This obviously sucks for Rockland Transit users, although I bet a majority of them are headed downtown and therefore don’t need to transfer to the OC Transpo system.

My understanding is that Rockland Transit is 100% rider funded. If that municipality is not willing to subsidize the service for their residents, why should the City of Ottawa do so? I would rather that subsidy be spend on better service for residents of Ottawa.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

This obviously sucks for Rockland Transit users, although I bet a majority of them are headed downtown and therefore don’t need to transfer to the OC Transpo system.

My understanding is that Rockland Transit is 100% rider funded. If that municipality is not willing to subsidize the service for their residents, why should the City of Ottawa do so? I would rather that subsidy be spend on better service for residents of Ottawa.

If it is 100% rider funded, then why would it need a subsidy?

[YOWetal]

Totally agree with this. Even letting them buy a full priced OCTranspo pass is a subsidy as it nowhere near covers the cost of the service (especially given the distance involved) and they don't pay the transit tax.

[J.OT13]

CR Transit will have to rethink its service. A few options to lower fares, making it easier for users to also buy an OC Pass, would be to provide a direct Rockland-Downtown service or cut the service from Rockland-Blair, which could lower costs further and provide a better option for those who don't work downtown.

In the grand scheme of things, this is bad for Ottawa. This just means more congestion on our streets instead of a handful of extra riders providing a slight boost to our ridership numbers.

Did OC and CRT even try to come up with a solution?

Best option IMO, as I've stated in the past, would be for OC Transpo to take over transit in Clarence-Rockland (and possibly other nearby municipalities) and introduce a zone based transit pass; inner-greenbelt ($100), outer-greenbelt (115$,or less with modest park-and-ride charge), rural ($140), beyond Ottawa ($300).

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

CR Transit will have to rethink its service. A few options to lower fares, making it easier for users to also buy an OC Pass, would be to provide a direct Rockland-Downtown service or cut the service from Rockland-Blair, which could lower costs further and provide a better option for those who don't work downtown.

In the grand scheme of things, this is bad for Ottawa. This just means more congestion on our streets instead of a handful of extra riders providing a slight boost to our ridership numbers.

Did OC and CRT even try to come up with a solution?

Best option IMO, as I've stated in the past, would be for OC Transpo to take over transit in Clarence-Rockland (and possibly other nearby municipalities) and introduce a zone based transit pass; inner-greenbelt ($100), outer-greenbelt (115$,or less with modest park-and-ride charge), rural ($140), beyond Ottawa ($300).

The number of cars those rural busses take off the roads is so negligible that I doubt it would make a difference.

I have little sympathy for people who move out of Ottawa to avoid paying for services like transit and then winge that Ottawa residents aren’t paying for their services.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The number of cars those rural busses take off the roads is so negligible that I doubt it would make a difference.

I have little sympathy for people who move out of Ottawa to avoid paying for services like transit and then winge that Ottawa residents aren’t paying for their services.

Exactly and with transit taxes set to double over next 20 years it will be important to have firm policies.

[TransitZilla]

I don't get how CR can say they are no longer allowed to access Hurdman.

I get that their buses will no longer be allowed onto the bus loop, since that is a fare paid zone and not all their customers will have paid an OC fare. But Hurdman now includes a public drop-off loop... why can't they use that?

It would make more sense for CR to truncate their route to Blair once LRT opens, and reduce their fare to reflect the lower costs. Then adding the full OC fare would have less of an impact.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

I don't get how CR can say they are no longer allowed to access Hurdman.

I get that their buses will no longer be allowed onto the bus loop, since that is a fare paid zone and not all their customers will have paid an OC fare. But Hurdman now includes a public drop-off loop... why can't they use that?

It would make more sense for CR to truncate their route to Blair once LRT opens, and reduce their fare to reflect the lower costs. Then adding the full OC fare would have less of an impact.

The public drop off loop is pretty tight for a bus to go around it, it was meant for cars

[lrt's friend]

You would think that Rockland's population could support an hourly all day bus shuttle once the Confederation Line reaches Trim Road, with extra buses during peak periods.