HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Pacific West > Sacramento Area


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #281  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2010, 2:45 PM
ThatDarnSacramentan ThatDarnSacramentan is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost of Econgrad View Post
Entitlements? If someone earns their money, it is their God given right to do whatever they want with it, as long as it does not harm anyone else (or break reasonable laws). Interesting you bring up such a term used everyday by conservative talk show hosts critisizing their opposition. I do not think anyone should be "Entitled" to dictate how someone else should spend their money. You may think it is ok to tell a person not to live in a McMasnion, and be happy with a Condo, I will fight for the freedom to choose how one should use their own income.

This is the problem, you guys want to down people who decide not to live in the inner city. This will never work, and will just amount to more elitism and more class social warfare. If all Urbanists where so happy with where they live, and confident about it, they wouldn't even think about downing the suburbs, they wouldn't even care. It speaks volumes of those who do. I do not down Midtown or Downtown (except to push buttons) to make myself feel better about choosing to live in Folsom. Why the opposite? It is very apparent on this site, all over the place.
I'm sorry. I think somewhere, my actual point got lost in the tirade. I don't care where people live or what they do with their money (and don't bring God into this, that's a whole other argument). My problem is the American psyche. There are a lot of people who could handle condos or apartments in the city, but they aren't willing to give the city a chance. When my friends and I see a movie, I get them to go to Downtown Plaza to see it. Sure, it's dead and empty, but the city's also very walkable since you don't have to cross Ethan Way or Fair Oaks Blvd. That's my problem: people almost automatically disregard the city. It's funny, because I'm sure with enough people heading for downtown, it would increase demand, and for all I know, even lead to a renaissance to the point where the city IS better than the burbs, like the way things were 70 years ago. And actually, what's also funny is how many of my friends complain about the nice suburbs they live. Most of them have to drive to get anywhere since nothing is within walking distance and there aren't sidewalks in some areas, and even then, there's still not much to do except drive a while to get to a mall or hang out at some strip mall. There's a reason, after all, there's a group on Facebook called "Hey, let's go do something JK I live in Folsom."
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #282  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2010, 4:14 PM
Mr. Ozo Mr. Ozo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 164
Funny, I live in Midtown and walk almost everywhere, but to see a movie I drive to Natomas because the downtown movie theater sucks so bad it usually ruins the movie for me.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #283  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2010, 4:30 PM
ThatDarnSacramentan ThatDarnSacramentan is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Ozo View Post
Funny, I live in Midtown and walk almost everywhere, but to see a movie I drive to Natomas because the downtown movie theater sucks so bad it usually ruins the movie for me.
Haha, I like Downtown even more because not many people go there anymore. I saw Inception there a few weeks ago, and there were about twenty other people in the whole theater. No screaming kids, no fat guys sitting in front of me, or smelly old dudes coughing next to me. While that's good for my movie going experience, it's pretty sad and terrible for Downtown Plaza and downtown in general. I swear, when I'm down there at night after a movie, I feel like I'm in an episode of Life After People: the lights are on, but there's nobody around. Cool and scary at the same time.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #284  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2010, 7:32 PM
wburg's Avatar
wburg wburg is offline
Hindrance to Development
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 2,402
Depends on the time of day: downtown is pretty busy during the weekdays, and on the weekend nights the blocks east of 9th on K all have something going on, to the point where we now have our own "guy doing the robot in a gold suit" street busker at 10th & K on the weekends.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #285  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2010, 7:39 PM
ThatDarnSacramentan ThatDarnSacramentan is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,048
Quote:
Originally Posted by wburg View Post
Depends on the time of day: downtown is pretty busy during the weekdays, and on the weekend nights the blocks east of 9th on K all have something going on, to the point where we now have our own "guy doing the robot in a gold suit" street busker at 10th & K on the weekends.
Cool. I might have to get a picture of that guy sometime, add it to the collection. All I can say is Downtown Plaza, 10 PM on a weekday, and you feel like you're the only person on Earth (unless you're at Johnny Rocket's: for some reason, that place is packed when the rest of the place is dead).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #286  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2010, 1:51 AM
wburg's Avatar
wburg wburg is offline
Hindrance to Development
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 2,402
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatDarnSacramentan View Post
Cool. I might have to get a picture of that guy sometime, add it to the collection. All I can say is Downtown Plaza, 10 PM on a weekday, and you feel like you're the only person on Earth (unless you're at Johnny Rocket's: for some reason, that place is packed when the rest of the place is dead).
Of course Downtown Plaza is dead at 10 PM: according to Westfield's website, Downtown Plaza closes at 8 PM.

Downtown Plaza is not quite the same thing as downtown.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #287  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2010, 3:44 AM
NikeFutbolero's Avatar
NikeFutbolero NikeFutbolero is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 98
Midtown, near the "happy district" always seems to have people walking around. It's actually my favorite place to just hang out with my girl on a nice day. Grap a dog at capitol dog and just hang out..
__________________
SAN FRANCISCO 49ERS
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #288  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2010, 9:24 AM
Ghost of Econgrad Ghost of Econgrad is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatDarnSacramentan View Post
I'm sorry. I think somewhere, my actual point got lost in the tirade. I don't care where people live or what they do with their money (and don't bring God into this, that's a whole other argument). My problem is the American psyche. There are a lot of people who could handle condos or apartments in the city, but they aren't willing to give the city a chance. When my friends and I see a movie, I get them to go to Downtown Plaza to see it. Sure, it's dead and empty, but the city's also very walkable since you don't have to cross Ethan Way or Fair Oaks Blvd. That's my problem: people almost automatically disregard the city. It's funny, because I'm sure with enough people heading for downtown, it would increase demand, and for all I know, even lead to a renaissance to the point where the city IS better than the burbs, like the way things were 70 years ago. And actually, what's also funny is how many of my friends complain about the nice suburbs they live. Most of them have to drive to get anywhere since nothing is within walking distance and there aren't sidewalks in some areas, and even then, there's still not much to do except drive a while to get to a mall or hang out at some strip mall. There's a reason, after all, there's a group on Facebook called "Hey, let's go do something JK I live in Folsom."
I thought your Point was this:

Quote:
08-09-2010 01:29 AM
ThatDarnSacramentan All I can say is Sacramento could take a few lessons from a neighbor of ours to the north, Portland.
Since there is a Facebook page called "Hey, Let's go do something, JK I live in Folsom", I plan to move away from Folsom immediately. How could I have been such a fool!?! I should have "Liked" that facebook page years ago, learned my lesson about the suburbs and never moved out of the grid. Thank you for showing me the light with your Facebook example! I see the light! I see the light! God bless facebook pages!

Last edited by Ghost of Econgrad; Aug 11, 2010 at 9:46 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #289  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2010, 2:57 PM
ThatDarnSacramentan ThatDarnSacramentan is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost of Econgrad View Post
I thought your Point was this:



Since there is a Facebook page called "Hey, Let's go do something, JK I live in Folsom", I plan to move away from Folsom immediately. How could I have been such a fool!?! I should have "Liked" that facebook page years ago, learned my lesson about the suburbs and never moved out of the grid. Thank you for showing me the light with your Facebook example! I see the light! I see the light! God bless facebook pages!
I can make more than one point, can't I?

As for your attempt at sarcasm (a failure, since it's both blatant and just not funny), I wasn't trying to say anything about you. I was saying something about my friends, my generation, who, in all likelihood, won't return to the suburbs once they leave them. I can't do or say anything to try and change the thoughts and opinions of the older generations, but I've already seen a growing wave of disdain and displeasure with the suburbs from kids who were raised in them who are now getting ready to leave home.

I gather you think I'm an urban elitist. If I'm an urban elitist, why are you a suburban elitist? I practically feel like I'm having a discussion with Joel Kotkin (I hope you don't take that as a compliment).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #290  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2010, 2:11 AM
Ghost of Econgrad Ghost of Econgrad is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatDarnSacramentan View Post
I can make more than one point, can't I?

As for your attempt at sarcasm (a failure, since it's both blatant and just not funny), I wasn't trying to say anything about you. I was saying something about my friends, my generation, who, in all likelihood, won't return to the suburbs once they leave them. I can't do or say anything to try and change the thoughts and opinions of the older generations, but I've already seen a growing wave of disdain and displeasure with the suburbs from kids who were raised in them who are now getting ready to leave home.

I gather you think I'm an urban elitist. If I'm an urban elitist, why are you a suburban elitist? I practically feel like I'm having a discussion with Joel Kotkin (I hope you don't take that as a compliment).
1. Yes, you can make more than one point.
2. My Sarcasm is funny! You must have not seen the movie "The Blues Brothers". If you did, you would have understood my sarcasm.
3. I know you were not saying anything about me. LOL! Why would you think that?
4. Your friends will return to the suburbs when they grow up and have families. You will see.
5. The "Wave of disdain and displeasure" with the suburbs with kids is basically just being kids. Believe me, you will find just as many, if not more kids with disdain and displeasure in Urban areas, as well as more kids being forced into Gangs, drugs, etc that is not as prevalent in the suburbs. Disdain and displeasure is part of life and not confined to Suburban life of teens.
6. I do take you calling me Joel Kotkin (I am glad you know who that is!) a compliment. He is very articulate and very correct in many of his thesis.
7. I do not think your an Urban Elitist. I was calling most people on this forum Urban Elitists, and I may have caught you in the crossfire. My Bad.
8. When you are old enough to go to bars and clubs, you will see that people who live in Midtown like to come to the clubs and bars in Folsom and Roseville, and Thunder Valley Casino, etc. As well as Folsomites and Rosevillians like to go to Midtown bars and clubs too. It is a very small few who are still caught up in the high school mentality and say things like "I don't leave the Grid" etc. They usually stay in the same area, complain about the new clubs that open in Midtown, and occasionally drive to San Francisco to feel "worldly" and "Urban". These are the peeps who make the loudest noise in Sacramento, but they are not the majority.

I posted the facts about how Portland's regulations are harming poor and middle-class people. We should not ever copy those regulations here in Sacramento. Read them, get back back to me if you want.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #291  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2010, 2:25 AM
ThatDarnSacramentan ThatDarnSacramentan is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,048
1. I'm glad. I'm full of ideas, I'm angry as hell, and it's easier to debate things over the Internet than with people around me
2. I haven't seen Blues Brothers, but I have seen most of the classics (which I'm sure I'll quote one way or another).
3. Not sure, don't care.
4. Maybe by the time some of them are old enough to have families (because right now, a lot of them will probably die before they reach 30 the way they live their lives), the city will be competitive with the suburbs for being able to raise a family.
5. My suburban friends might not be forced into drugs and stuff, but there are people in my class who are bigger cokeheads than any gang member I've come across in Sacramento.
6. I would've taken it as an insult, but there isn't really an insult equivalent for me or my side.
7. It's no problem. I already know I'm an urban elitist: I hate the suburbs, I love the city, and if I had my way when it came to development, I'd make the land out in the burbs so expensive, you couldn't even look at it without feeling it in your wallet.

Why is it that the suburbs are so much better for raising a family? Well, as innov8 pointed out on the previous page, it has to do with education. Urban public schools, for the most part, suck. I live in the city and I don't even go to a school in the central city. It's a chain of events: if education is reformed and improved in the public schools, then they'd stand a chance against the shiny new campuses out in Antelope and Elk Grove. By making city schools far more competitive with suburban schools, parents who live in the city and like the city life would be able to stay in the city, retaining part of the population from their exodus to the McMansions.

It all comes down to investment: if the city invests more in better schools and parks, there'd be less demand to build all those four bedroom behemoths out in the burbs because those families wouldn't have to move. If my train of thought seems dodgy at times or flawed, it's probably because I'm tired as hell.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #292  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2010, 12:36 AM
Ghost of Econgrad Ghost of Econgrad is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 298
You will learn someday that Cities spend more on education, with less results. The reason why the Suburban educational facilities are somewhat better is because the suburbs have more educated talent in these fields, why? Because smart people, like me, want homes with pools in a hot climate like Sacramento. This is not the only reason, but mine and many of my neighbors.
Your "points" are inconsistent and a bit visceral, so if you want to debate the facts about how Portland's Urban Policies harms the poor and middle class, post something of substance against it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #293  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2010, 12:48 AM
ThatDarnSacramentan ThatDarnSacramentan is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,048
I don't think I will. This debate's grown somewhat boring, since really, I'm more of a passionate fighter than a logical one. That, and I'm too preoccupied with other things to actually research all sorts of data about Portland. Have you ever been to Portland, or do you just stay in your "cozy" three bedroom McMansion? Honestly, I pretty much feel like I'm talking to Milquetoast from SSC.

The problem with the theory that there's plenty of space to build is flawed because eventually, you will run out of space, and it'll drain even more resources. I'm really done here, because it's simply become boring. I have no doubt you'll think to yourself, "I won, I won, I won the discussion!" Whatever makes you happy.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #294  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2010, 2:28 AM
Ghost of Econgrad Ghost of Econgrad is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatDarnSacramentan View Post
I don't think I will. This debate's grown somewhat boring, since really, I'm more of a passionate fighter than a logical one. That, and I'm too preoccupied with other things to actually research all sorts of data about Portland. Have you ever been to Portland, or do you just stay in your "cozy" three bedroom McMansion? Honestly, I pretty much feel like I'm talking to Milquetoast from SSC.

The problem with the theory that there's plenty of space to build is flawed because eventually, you will run out of space, and it'll drain even more resources. I'm really done here, because it's simply become boring. I have no doubt you'll think to yourself, "I won, I won, I won the discussion!" Whatever makes you happy.
But yet you brought it up....

Quote:
ThatDarnSacramentan All I can say is Sacramento could take a few lessons from a neighbor of ours to the north, Portland.
So try not to get all up in a bunch about things if you bring them up and people disagree and provide facts on why, then say your getting bored. Life is too short to be that addle-brained and made unhappy. It is just a forum, take your time if you want and research things when you have it, or just post on here and have fun. Take Care, God Bless.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #295  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2010, 4:46 AM
Ghost of Econgrad Ghost of Econgrad is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 298
Sacramento City Council approves Curtis Park project
rlillis@sacbee.com
Published Wednesday, Sep. 29, 2010


After years of tense neighborhood meetings, more than 140 changes to the proposal and threats of a lawsuit, the Curtis Park Village development project received City Council approval to move forward Tuesday night.

Following another in a long line of contentious hearings on the city's second-largest infill development project, the council voted unanimously to allow developer Paul Petrovich to begin development work on the 72-acre site.

Petrovich, the developer behind the R Street Market in midtown, hopes to complete his ongoing task of removing thousands of cubic yards of toxic soil from the former Union Pacific railyard by next year.

He said he has state Proposition 1C funding available to begin placing infrastructure on the site and could begin construction on buildings by the end of next year.

The proposal calls for 129 single-family homes, 45 brownstone residences, 248 multifamily homes and 259,000 square feet of commercial, retail and office space.

The land sits in a wedge between the leafy Curtis Park neighborhood and Sacramento City College, just north of Sutterville Road.

Petrovich said the $211 million project would pump $2.5 million in property taxes and $900,000 in sales taxes into the city's coffers each year, in addition to $32 million worth of building fees. It will also create 2,000 construction jobs.

"People in this city are committed to smart growth and this is a good project that is going to be a great project," said Councilwoman Lauren Hammond, who has brokered disagreements between Petrovich and neighborhood activists for years.

The project has been the focus of more than 200 neighborhood meetings, a 2,100- page environmental impact report and hours of debate before the planning commission and City Council.

Over the course of the seven years Petrovich has been involved the project, the developer said he has made 42 changes at the request of the Sierra Curtis Neighborhood Association, the active community group representing the Curtis Park neighborhood.

The group still opposed elements of the project going into Tuesday night, but last-minute changes eased some of those concerns.

Chief among the challenges by the neighborhood association was the notion that Petrovich might store some toxic soil under a 7-acre park in the development. That possibility had led the group to threaten a lawsuit.

However, Petrovich agreed not to store contaminated soil beneath the park if no legal challenge was filed. The most toxic of the soil is being shipped to Utah, while other contaminated dirt will be placed in a 16-foot-deep trough beneath the main street of the development.

As a result of the last-minute agreement, neighborhood association president Rosanna Herber said it was "very unlikely we will sue."

The council also agreed to prohibit vehicle traffic onto an extension of 10th Avenue into the project – leaving it open only to bicycle and pedestrian traffic – addressing another concern of the neighborhood association.

"I don't think this is the best we could have done, but I do think it's acceptable (as long as toxic soil is not placed beneath the park)," Herber said.

Other groups, including the Land Park Community Association and the Sacramento Area Council of Governments, had already signed off on their support of the project.

At his weekly press conference earlier in the day, Mayor Kevin Johnson said Petrovich "has done a lot that's proactive to meet the concerns of the community."

While the council approved the design guidelines of the project, more specific project details will go back to the city planning commission and planning director in the future.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #296  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2010, 5:13 AM
wburg's Avatar
wburg wburg is offline
Hindrance to Development
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 2,402
Not sure if this belongs in "Suburban Development"--Curtis Park is a suburban neighborhood, but well within the Sacramento city limits and close to the urban core.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #297  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2010, 3:06 PM
ThatDarnSacramentan ThatDarnSacramentan is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,048
Quote:
Originally Posted by wburg View Post
Not sure if this belongs in "Suburban Development"--Curtis Park is a suburban neighborhood, but well within the Sacramento city limits and close to the urban core.
Yeah, I don't think so either, unless this plan turns out to be like a suburban development in nature, which I;d hate to see. Whatever they do for this project, I hope it's done well and they make it blend in well with the existing neighborhoods of Curtis and Land Parks. I gotta be honest, though, I kinda like the railyard. Sure, it's dirty and toxic, but it's got a certain character to it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #298  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2010, 5:27 PM
Majin's Avatar
Majin Majin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Downtown Sacramento
Posts: 2,221
Curtis Park and Land Park teeter totter between what I consider an urban neighborhood and suburban neighborhood.

Generally, I start considering neighborhoods "suburban" south of fruitridge and east of 65th street. Anything inside that area is either urban (downtown/midtown/oak park/tahoe park) or gray area (east sacramento). Then you have land park/curtis park where the street layout is defiantly urban and the lots are small and dense but the neighborhood feel is definitely family oriented and suburban like. Very hard to accurately classify.
__________________
Majin Crew: jsf8278, wburg, daverave
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #299  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2010, 7:03 PM
wburg's Avatar
wburg wburg is offline
Hindrance to Development
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 2,402
It's called a "streetcar suburb," Majin. East Sac and Curtis Park (along with Oak Park, Colonial Heights etc.) look the way they do because they were built during the era when automobiles were just one of several ways to get around a city. To a downtown dweller, they look like suburbs, to an outer suburb dweller, they look urban. Built today, they are called "transit-oriented development."
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #300  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2010, 11:39 PM
Ghost of Econgrad Ghost of Econgrad is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 298
Its a suburb. Enough of the drama you guys...
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Pacific West > Sacramento Area
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:12 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.